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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 30 2019 02:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:37 semantics wrote:On April 30 2019 01:49 DwD wrote:
I liked how she was going for the stealth kill but couldnt help herself to yell out while flying through the air.
Also... Where the FUCK did she come from? There were hundreds and hundreds of undead there just 2 seconds ago fighting the guards surrounding Bran Bigger question is where did she jump from. The tree right above them? Because that's a garden with no structures near where the NK and bran where. Geez, who cares? It's not a strategy game, it's a story. "Hamlet sucks because why didn't the king have a bodyguard at the end and why did his court let Hamlet butcher him? Makes no sense at all, bad writing, 0 stars." I mean consistently and all that is important, but if you can't enjoy a story because you don't know what strategy Arya used to get to the NK, you are the one with a problem imo.
There is nitpicking and then there is having some form of standard. Now i am not 100% sure if this was a writing problem or a directing one, maybe there was more to it in the script than "and then arya jumps on the nightking and kills him" without having anything before that setting it up. MAYBE. Maybe it was the fault of the director who simply didn't shoot it well.
But that is basically what happened, we had a lot of dramatic crosscutting between the NK and jon (and maybe others, not sure atm), the tension was building, the doom was near. Then arya decides to spontaneously teleport on the nightking to kill him. I really don't see why you think it is ridiculous to critizice that. It's so far away from nitpicking, it is a serious flaw in presenting a satisfying conclusion to this storyarc. Both on the micro lvl of how it exactly happens and on the macro lvl considering that it went directly against prophecies, didn't bring a satisfying conclusion to NK vs 3ER (bran basically does nothing at all), it made the white walker conflict look like a joke, everything is done in one episode.
There are unlimited ways to write these things, especially the micro lvl. If this was the best they could come up with then that's a sign of creative bankruptcy.
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Did anyone else think Sansa is going to kill herself when she pulled out her dagger next to Tyrion? Not saying it would make sense, just that it was the first thing that came to my mind when watching that scene.
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On April 30 2019 04:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
a satisfying conclusion to NK vs 3ER (bran basically does nothing at all)
Bran: "I'm going"
Me: Oh, he's gonna take over a Dragon or Ghost! Or he's going to scout and help the troops!
Bran: Me birb
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Northern Ireland26402 Posts
On April 30 2019 04:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 30 2019 02:37 semantics wrote:On April 30 2019 01:49 DwD wrote:
I liked how she was going for the stealth kill but couldnt help herself to yell out while flying through the air.
Also... Where the FUCK did she come from? There were hundreds and hundreds of undead there just 2 seconds ago fighting the guards surrounding Bran Bigger question is where did she jump from. The tree right above them? Because that's a garden with no structures near where the NK and bran where. Geez, who cares? It's not a strategy game, it's a story. "Hamlet sucks because why didn't the king have a bodyguard at the end and why did his court let Hamlet butcher him? Makes no sense at all, bad writing, 0 stars." I mean consistently and all that is important, but if you can't enjoy a story because you don't know what strategy Arya used to get to the NK, you are the one with a problem imo. There is nitpicking and then there is having some form of standard. Now i am not 100% sure if this was a writing problem or a directing one, maybe there was more to it in the script than "and then arya jumps on the nightking and kills him" without having anything before that setting it up. MAYBE. Maybe it was the fault of the director who simply didn't shoot it well. But that is basically what happened, we had a lot of dramatic crosscutting between the NK and jon (and maybe others, not sure atm), the tension was building, the doom was near. Then arya decides to spontaneously teleport on the nightking to kill him. I really don't see why you think it is ridiculous to critizice that. It's so far away from nitpicking, it is a serious flaw in presenting a satisfying conclusion to this storyarc. Both on the micro lvl of how it exactly happens and on the macro lvl considering that it went directly against prophecies, didn't bring a satisfying conclusion to NK vs 3ER (bran basically does nothing at all), it made the white walker conflict look like a joke, everything is done in one episode. There are unlimited ways to write these things, especially the micro lvl. If this was the best they could come up with then that's a sign of creative bankruptcy.
Given the lead-up, I said in advance numerous times here that the Night King walking into a trap and dying would have been stupid in so many levels, so I was expecting something cool.
Maybe the NK knew it was a trap and pulls one of his one, maybe Bran has to counter him with something cool, maybe Melisandre does something there, etc etc, plus we could maybe have some interaction between NK and Bran is some kind.
Nope, Night King who has outsmarted folks, manages to get himself and his whole army killed by doing the only thing that could have got him killed.
He can somehow have the foresight to bait Dany into rescuing John for a dragon, but he just walks into an obvious trap?
Which is made more confusingly awful by the NK being a relatively closed book that we don’t know much about, if he had a massive hubristic streak or something then sure.
It just bad, bad, bad. Generally a supervillain has to be genuinely outsmarted with a good plan, or be undone by their own character flaws or whatever. If he’s undone in this manner, it just really has the whole arc die with a whimper.
Arya teleporting is also silly but that’s a small part of my bigger issue with the (seeming) death of the NK.
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I mean, no matter what the NK was going to have to act like an idiot in this episode once the showrunners decided he wants to kill Brann. Otherwise he would just have remote controlled Viserion to kill the kid in the wheel chair and our heroes would literally be helpless to stop him.
I think it's fine for him to have some hubris. But Arya getting through shoulder to shoulder wights after delicately avoiding them for 4 minutes in the same episode is just a silliness bridge too far the more I think about it. I'll say it again, having her hiding in the tree and totally absent up to that point would have been way more coherent.
Just have her kill Cersei at this point. She wants to anyway, and even supernatural hyperalert zombies can't detect her.
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
On April 30 2019 04:36 Sent. wrote:
Did anyone else think Sansa is going to kill herself when she pulled out her dagger next to Tyrion? Not saying it would make sense, just that it was the first thing that came to my mind when watching that scene.
LMAO, I had the same feeling.
Anyway, I KNEW, like I was telling everyone and that seemed pretty obvious that Arya will play some critical role in that war. Episode was kinda NICE, the scenes, the music and stuff but I'm kind of little disappointed because of the whole Bran thing.
I thought he's gonna channel some fucking kamehameha at the NK but no, he kept sitting and doing nothing >D
Edit : Also, I think that this https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/binsug/spoilers_the_bran_is_the_lord_of_light_theory_is/ is pretty legit and Bran won't be 101% bait.
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Well i would have less issue with it if there was a plan, it didn't look like there was a real one honestly, yes bran was bait we knew about that, but arya really came out of nowhere, this wasn't really part of it in the first place.
I said it before, what if arya was disguised as bran and she is waiting there for him, it would have been the same trick like we've seen multiple times before so on that lvl it would have been disappointing, but it would have shown some skill of hers.
The whole portrayal at the end basically tried to showcase that the plan failed, the nightking won. Until arya decided that she is the most badass character ever who struggles witha few wights before but now manages to somehow get through a ton of them + white walkers. Oh well.
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But Bran has a gps tracking tattoo so the night king would know it was a fake
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On April 30 2019 05:04 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
But Bran has a gps tracking tattoo so the night king would know it was a fake
I am not saying it would be necessarily be perfect, though imo it is easier to suspend disbelief on the accuracy of this tracking than on what we got now 
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Just re watched it, to be honest I still find it amazing  can't say much more, it's an epic battle with a super tense conclusion. Watching knowing the end, it's clearer how Arya is more central in the storyline of the battle.
Also, I don't want to *know* how Arya finds a way to sneak past the ww to jump on the NK, it's part of the fantasy lore that comes with her assassin / faceless man training: it would be sooo much less tense if you already knew she was hiding there in a tree, or if they called for it even more..
Was the NK ever shown outsmart someone previously? I ask honestly as I don't remember all the storyline
Also, the sountrack, as always, is really amazing -- the final scene has tones that reminds a lot of Westworld (I think the composer is the same..?)
Btw: we never saw Bran or is predecessor doing anything in combat, we never saw Bran warg into a dragon (! this I would find really out there..) or control an other person other than Hodor.. how do you expect it to unleash some magical weaponry on the NK out of nothing?
I don't know, I'm just happy about the episode
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Zurich15364 Posts
The best part in a funny way was the Terminator sound when the NK stepped out of the dragon fire.
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I'm kinda angry. All that build up for Arya ex machina? Come on. I really hope they'll do something surprising in the next episode. Otherwise, we're on our way to Lost 2.0, which would be a shame.
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On April 30 2019 05:15 zatic wrote:
The best part in a funny way was the Terminator sound when the NK stepped out of the dragon fire.
I almost expected him to do what Luke Skywalker did here (0:47)
+ Show Spoiler +
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Northern Ireland26402 Posts
On April 30 2019 05:12 VHbb wrote:Just re watched it, to be honest I still find it amazing can't say much more, it's an epic battle with a super tense conclusion. Watching knowing the end, it's clearer how Arya is more central in the storyline of the battle. Also, I don't want to *know* how Arya finds a way to sneak past the ww to jump on the NK, it's part of the fantasy lore that comes with her assassin / faceless man training: it would be sooo much less tense if you already knew she was hiding there in a tree, or if they called for it even more.. Was the NK ever shown outsmart someone previously? I ask honestly as I don't remember all the storyline Also, the sountrack, as always, is really amazing -- the final scene has tones that reminds a lot of Westworld (I think the composer is the same..?) Btw: we never saw Bran or is predecessor doing anything in combat, we never saw Bran warg into a dragon (! this I would find really out there..) or control an other person other than Hodor.. how do you expect it to unleash some magical weaponry on the NK out of nothing? I don't know, I'm just happy about the episode
I mean like, I assume him leaving Jon and company alive on an ice island for ages only made sense if he was trying to bait himself a dragon, the big chains they had to pull it up would also point towards that being pre-planned too.
Which he then uses to blow the wall not too long after. So it seems the NK had either a good plan going on, or he improvised well with opportunities he got given.
As opposed to getting himself killed in this episode
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On April 30 2019 05:12 VHbb wrote:Just re watched it, to be honest I still find it amazing can't say much more, it's an epic battle with a super tense conclusion. Watching knowing the end, it's clearer how Arya is more central in the storyline of the battle. Also, I don't want to *know* how Arya finds a way to sneak past the ww to jump on the NK, it's part of the fantasy lore that comes with her assassin / faceless man training: it would be sooo much less tense if you already knew she was hiding there in a tree, or if they called for it even more.. Was the NK ever shown outsmart someone previously? I ask honestly as I don't remember all the storyline Also, the sountrack, as always, is really amazing -- the final scene has tones that reminds a lot of Westworld (I think the composer is the same..?) Btw: we never saw Bran or is predecessor doing anything in combat, we never saw Bran warg into a dragon (! this I would find really out there..) or control an other person other than Hodor.. how do you expect it to unleash some magical weaponry on the NK out of nothing? I don't know, I'm just happy about the episode
The Night King has never been anything but an unstoppable force that seemed to have magical powers surrounding death, cold and ice weapons. Tactics don’t seem to be his thing. Or thought. In general the White Walkers seem weirdly indifferent towards humans when they are not trying to kill humans on mass.
It has also never been made clear how much autonomy the other White Walkers have. They could just be weird extensions of the Night King’s malice toward humans.
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On April 30 2019 05:12 VHbb wrote:Just re watched it, to be honest I still find it amazing can't say much more, it's an epic battle with a super tense conclusion. Watching knowing the end, it's clearer how Arya is more central in the storyline of the battle. Also, I don't want to *know* how Arya finds a way to sneak past the ww to jump on the NK, it's part of the fantasy lore that comes with her assassin / faceless man training: it would be sooo much less tense if you already knew she was hiding there in a tree, or if they called for it even more.. Was the NK ever shown outsmart someone previously? I ask honestly as I don't remember all the storyline Also, the sountrack, as always, is really amazing -- the final scene has tones that reminds a lot of Westworld (I think the composer is the same..?) Btw: we never saw Bran or is predecessor doing anything in combat, we never saw Bran warg into a dragon (! this I would find really out there..) or control an other person other than Hodor.. how do you expect it to unleash some magical weaponry on the NK out of nothing? I don't know, I'm just happy about the episode
I mean more power to you if you overall really loved the episode, as i said in my first comment i think there is great stuff in there as well. They orchestrated some nice moments, sadly i think the narrative problems are just too big to allow me to really enjoy it.
I disagree about it being less tense if it didn't come out of left field, the whole nightking having a firm grip on her would be so much more tense exactly because we would have known that she is coming for him. Best case scenario they would have the same parts as it was now, with crosscutting between the NK and Jon, then he arrives there and something happens between him and 3ER while we get a climps of arya coming for him, to then just fail (at least for a moment). They could have played that longer as well, now the tension released almost immediately.
Things are tense because the audience knows things the characters in the story don't. If we know arya is coming we have time to think things through, to be thrilled and hope that she can succeed somehow. Imagine having that for her to fail at first into some form of trick. Way more satisfying already (not great either, but there is a setup at least)
Well people perceived him getting the dragon as outsmarting dany i guess, they thought he can look into the future and see that she would come with dragons. Doesn't seem super likely anymore, it was just convenient.
I completely agree about the music, it was one of the highlights in that episode for me as well. But that was always a real strength of GoT, great soundtrack indeed!
The point about Bran isn't necessarily that he has to skinchange into the dragon (though there would be setup for him doing it at least), but just that there has to be some reason why the NK wants him dead. What about the 3ER is so special that he needs to die, he was the "memory", but why is that important. There is something missing here to make it satisfying.
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United States43720 Posts
On April 30 2019 05:04 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
But Bran has a gps tracking tattoo so the night king would know it was a fake
Not if Bran was lying by the roots of the heart tree going full 3ER and merging into the tree cause he no longer had a face.
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I'm curious about the rest of the story and how they wrap it up. I don't see Cersei winning it all honestly, but I wonder how things will go in the end: it's fair to assume that the tensions between factions / characters are suspended for this episode given the undead menace, but I assume from next episode things will resume
- sansa / the north and daenerys / targaryen
- jamie and his relationship with cersei, and the fact that he's at winterfell
without going more through the list, there's a bunch of characters with reasons to not stand together, which might start to plot again now that the "game" resumes.. what do you think?
there are 3 more episodes, assuming that 1 episode is setup for the battle vs cersei and regrouping after this one, 1 episode is the battle at king's landing, the final one should be just wrap up?
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On April 30 2019 05:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 05:12 VHbb wrote:Just re watched it, to be honest I still find it amazing can't say much more, it's an epic battle with a super tense conclusion. Watching knowing the end, it's clearer how Arya is more central in the storyline of the battle. Also, I don't want to *know* how Arya finds a way to sneak past the ww to jump on the NK, it's part of the fantasy lore that comes with her assassin / faceless man training: it would be sooo much less tense if you already knew she was hiding there in a tree, or if they called for it even more.. Was the NK ever shown outsmart someone previously? I ask honestly as I don't remember all the storyline Also, the sountrack, as always, is really amazing -- the final scene has tones that reminds a lot of Westworld (I think the composer is the same..?) Btw: we never saw Bran or is predecessor doing anything in combat, we never saw Bran warg into a dragon (! this I would find really out there..) or control an other person other than Hodor.. how do you expect it to unleash some magical weaponry on the NK out of nothing? I don't know, I'm just happy about the episode I mean more power to you if you overall really loved the episode, as i said in my first comment i think there is great stuff in there as well. They orchestrated some nice moments, sadly i think the narrative problems are just too big to allow me to really enjoy it. I disagree about it being less tense if it didn't come out of left field, the whole nightking having a firm grip on her would be so much more tense exactly because we would have known that she is coming for him. Best case scenario they would have the same parts as it was now, with crosscutting between the NK and Jon, then he arrives there and something happens between him and 3ER while we get a climps of arya coming for him, to then just fail (at least for a moment). They could have played that longer as well, now the tension released almost immediately. Things are tense because the audience knows things the characters in the story don't. If we know arya is coming we have time to think things through, to be thrilled and hope that she can succeed somehow. Imagine having that for her to fail at first into some form of trick. Way more satisfying already (not great either, but there is a setup at least) Well people perceived him getting the dragon as outsmarting dany i guess, they thought he can look into the future and see that she would come with dragons. Doesn't seem super likely anymore, it was just convenient. I completely agree about the music, it was one of the highlights in that episode for me as well. But that was always a real strength of GoT, great soundtrack indeed! The point about Bran isn't necessarily that he has to skinchange into the dragon (though there would be setup for him doing it at least), but just that there has to be some reason why the NK wants him dead. What about the 3ER is so special that he needs to die, he was the "memory", but why is that important. There is something missing here to make it satisfying.
yes I see your point about some lack of purpose for Bran's role, I still hope something more comes out of him in the next episodes (even if I'm not sure). The memory of humans explanation feels a bit forced, and I also don't see him playing a substantial role in the rest of the story, if it goes back to a political plot and a battle among humans (vs Cercei)..
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
We should make a prediction poll on who will kill Cersei now.
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EPT
