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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 30 2019 02:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:37 semantics wrote:On April 30 2019 01:49 DwD wrote:
I liked how she was going for the stealth kill but couldnt help herself to yell out while flying through the air.
Also... Where the FUCK did she come from? There were hundreds and hundreds of undead there just 2 seconds ago fighting the guards surrounding Bran Bigger question is where did she jump from. The tree right above them? Because that's a garden with no structures near where the NK and bran where. Geez, who cares? It's not a strategy game, it's a story. "Hamlet sucks because why didn't the king have a bodyguard at the end and why did his court let Hamlet butcher him? Makes no sense at all, bad writing, 0 stars." I mean consistently and all that is important, but if you can't enjoy a story because you don't know what strategy Arya used to get to the NK, you are the one with a problem imo.
Now I want all of Shakespeare’s plays critiqued through the lens of Crusader King’s 2 gameplay logic.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On April 30 2019 03:01 BlackCompany wrote:
So the good thing is that GoT still gives me goosebumps, i was really nervous (in the good kind of way) when the episode started. I enjoyed it but holy shit i've never said "this is the worst idea in all of the ideas ever" so many times in a single episode
1)Lyanna Mormont still a badass, still that went way over the top
2) does anyone in Westeros after Tywins death have any kind of tactical sense or how to execute a battle plan? Like "well horses run very fast, so we gonna send them in first obviously. The trebuchets are excellent defense for our troops so naturally they have to be IN FRONT WHERE THEY GET IMMIDIATLY OVERRUN. Now the important part: the archers are not allowed to fire till the battle is lost. THIS ONE IS REALLY IMPORTANT" Why the fuck did they even fight outside the walls? Yes that makes sense if your army is way too big for the Castle but after they retreated they had like 3 men for every section of wall. Makes you wonder if the dead would have even breached the castle with thousands of well trained Unsullied on top of the walls.. Yes the ice dragon could have done something about that but still..
3) I'm actually mad at the fact that the dead in the crypts did reanimate. Incredibly mad.
4) How does anyone who is not Drogon survive this battle. Like, for real. Everyone should be more dead than dead. There are like 27 people left in winterfell and at least 18 are main characters. They did not even kill off any real main characters even if they were already burried under tons of wights.
5) Seriously, the battle plan (yes it's already under number 2 but i'm super mad about it). The kamikaze horsemen, then the artillery in front of everything. Archers not even attempted to be used to break the waves of the dead so they dont just dogpile everything
6) Many others including myself already talked about how anticlimatic it would be if the nightking went down in this episode. But the silly knife switcheroo made it even worse than anticipated. So here is this evil ice zombie demon guy who is incredibly old. I bet he's gonna be super arrogant and allow me to kill him with a simple knife trick. At least Arya did it and not Jon in some even worse heroic 1v1 swordfight. Also where the fuck did she even come from? Bran looked to be sourrounded by a solid wall of wights and walkers.
7) Is it just me or did the Berric death scene where he held the doorway with both hands remind you of some kind of Jesus analogy?
All in all it feels really hard to give a fuck about what happens next. The Cersei story feels kinda meh and low stakes after they just killed a millions strong ice zombie horde. Plus they dont really have anything left to fight her. Unless suddenly a Tully army or something arrives.
Exactly on the battle plans, you don’t have to be a military history nerd, or an RTS nerd (sadly for my life I’m both) but I mean COME ON. Yeah my plan is to siege away from my planetary, run most of my army directly into a Zerg one and then I unsiege my completely undefended tanks.
I was being charitable in some of the flaws that started to emerge when the source material started switching from GRRM to Hollywood but that trajectory has got way worse.
I’m more picky about battle stuff than many, but also they seem to be going down the lazy route with heroes saving the day and Arya is now an unkillable teen assassin etc etc.
Also how the fuck did Jorah get over to Danny? I’m sick of these ‘off screen’ save moves. I’ve seen really epic battles where there’s a much more consistent sense of place and how things relate to each other, in other media but also in Thrones itself.
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Fucking Sam got Edd killed.
Just go to the cripts where it's super safe.
Alliser was right:
youtu.be
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On April 30 2019 03:15 Garbels wrote:Fucking Sam got Edd killed. Just go to the cripts where it's super safe. Alliser was right: youtu.be
Totally. I've liked Sam's devlopment throughout the series, but I have no idea wtf he was doing out there. He's valued more for his smarts like Tyrion and Varys, him being on the battlefield was dumb af.
That has to be the craziest plot armor of the whole ep
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I do have a nagging thought about the ending that like... is it just a function of budget? Could they just not support a 2nd army of the dead battle because of the cost?
I think the letdown of focusing on Cersei is just that she's... not that interesting anymore? Cersei, up until maybe Myrcella's death is a really rich and interesting character who's sort of caught between all sorts of things (love of her children, her vengeance, her self over-estimation, her oppression as a woman, her disastrous relationship with Robert, her drinking etc.). She's always been nasty, but it used to be framed in a way that you can sympathize with the conditions that may have cause her to be what she is. But now she's just so much the "big bad antagonist" without nuance and without the Night King she can't really be anything more than that anymore.
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I think HBO would be happy to let the show runners go on for another seasons or two. I don’t think the show runners or all the actors are willing to stay on for another couple of years to do that. They want to do new things.
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Just another normal game of thrones happened.
At least we had a sweet scene between Tyrion and Sansa!
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I don't get the gripe that Arya is 'suddenly' a great fighter. Like her first scene in episode one is her being better at weapons than men, then she's been training weapons from the worlds best for most of her plotline, and then gained some divine god of death powers, and then we learn the lord of light is also on her side. Is there even someone with a higher powerlevel?
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On April 30 2019 03:23 Logo wrote:
I do have a nagging thought about the ending that like... is it just a function of budget? Could they just not support a 2nd army of the dead battle because of the cost?
I think the letdown of focusing on Cersei is just that she's... not that interesting anymore? Cersei, up until maybe Myrcella's death is a really rich and interesting character who's sort of caught between all sorts of things (love of her children, her vengeance, her self over-estimation, her oppression as a woman, her disastrous relationship with Robert, her drinking etc.). She's always been nasty, but it used to be framed in a way that you can sympathize with the conditions that may have cause her to be what she is. But now she's just so much the "big bad antagonist" without nuance and without the Night King she can't really be anything more than that anymore.
I felt what they shoulda done was drag out Cersei’s betrayal, maybe have her forces not show up at some battle and a bunch of the North gets massacred by wights. Also a good way to shed some excess characters.
You wouldn’t need a huge budget to show something like that, you keep the suspense going longer on Cersei’s ultimate villain switch, and I feel throwing that in the middle, before what just occurred would have worked so much better in basically every way.
They’d have gone from thinking they’re probably boned, to even more boned than before if Cersei played them that way, which would also just work better for me anyway.
As it stands we’ve had basically the final boss battle before the less interesting and threatening one, but without intrigue in the middle either.
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On April 30 2019 03:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I don't get the gripe that Arya is 'suddenly' a great fighter. Like her first scene in episode one is her being better at weapons than men, then she's been training weapons from the worlds best for most of her plotline, and then gained some divine god of death powers, and then we learn the lord of light is also on her side. Is there even someone with a higher powerlevel?
Nobody's saying she shouldn't be a great fighter. Her scene on the wall where she's shredding through one wight after the other was super cool, showing that she's probably not great in the mob below but quite useful in 1v1 fights.
Teleporting past an army and flying screaming through the air when she couldn't see straight 5 minutes ago is another matter, though.
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Maybe, but even then Cersei isn't becoming that much more interesting. Like she's still just playing mono-evil whether she betrays up front or a little later. There's just nothing of depth there to be interested in anymore.
We're not going to get another almost-tender moment between Cersei and Tyrion or the rare moments when Cersei opens up to Sansa and just lets her pain of being a woman flow out. There's no more moments where Cersei is drinking herself into a stupor over the loss of her son & father that almost frames her terrible decisions. No more cases of seeing Cersei struggle between her love of Joffery and her knowledge that he's a monster. All that's gone for mono-evil ruler lady.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On April 30 2019 03:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I don't get the gripe that Arya is 'suddenly' a great fighter. Like her first scene in episode one is her being better at weapons than men, then she's been training weapons from the worlds best for most of her plotline, and then gained some divine god of death powers, and then we learn the lord of light is also on her side. Is there even someone with a higher powerlevel?
Yeah but she’s just super, super OP and feels too close to invincible, I’m happy if she’s a great fighter but she seems to be too big an outlier there.
I mean she can be Flash, but there’s still Jaedongs and Bisus about the place. Her abilities vs people we’re told are the best fighters in Westeros are like Flash playing D- folks on ICCup.
Jaime lost his hand sure, but even right handed Jaime wasn’t swirling around killing everyone when he fought Ned way back. The same Jaime who even Euron said recently lived up to the hype.
I have less issue with her kicking ass in areas where she has space and she can use her favoured tools but she’s managed to fling wights around in scenes when people much, much bigger are getting bogged down by numbers.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On April 30 2019 03:49 Logo wrote:
Maybe, but even then Cersei isn't becoming that much more interesting. Like she's still just playing mono-evil whether she betrays up front or a little later. There's just nothing of depth there to be interested in anymore.
We're not going to get another almost-tender moment between Cersei and Tyrion or the rare moments when Cersei opens up to Sansa and just lets her pain of being a woman flow out. There's no more moments where Cersei is drinking herself into a stupor over the loss of her son & father that almost frames her terrible decisions. No more cases of seeing Cersei struggle between her love of Joffery and her knowledge that he's a monster. All that's gone for mono-evil ruler lady.
I do somewhat agree, then again that’s the kind of stuff I like Thrones for so I wasn’t expecting as much this series what with the Walkers finally doing their thing.
I suppose my suggestions were more predicated on ‘if Cersei is going to turn rule lady’, rather than if it’s the best idea.
I mean I think they totally botched it in other ways too, perhaps the Lannister brothers could have clashed over it, except they precluded the possibility by having Jaime knowing her intentions.
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On April 30 2019 03:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I don't get the gripe that Arya is 'suddenly' a great fighter. Like her first scene in episode one is her being better at weapons than men, then she's been training weapons from the worlds best for most of her plotline, and then gained some divine god of death powers, and then we learn the lord of light is also on her side. Is there even someone with a higher powerlevel?
Of course there is. There's mega-genius Sansa who's the smartest person Arya has ever met, even though she's talked extensively with Tywin before. Sure Sansa hasn't really demonstrated much yet and mainly throws bitter barbs at people, but you better believe she's the best player of the game!
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On April 30 2019 03:52 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 03:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I don't get the gripe that Arya is 'suddenly' a great fighter. Like her first scene in episode one is her being better at weapons than men, then she's been training weapons from the worlds best for most of her plotline, and then gained some divine god of death powers, and then we learn the lord of light is also on her side. Is there even someone with a higher powerlevel?
Yeah but she’s just super, super OP and feels too close to invincible, I’m happy if she’s a great fighter but she seems to be too big an outlier there. I mean she can be Flash, but there’s still Jaedongs and Bisus about the place. Her abilities vs people we’re told are the best fighters in Westeros are like Flash playing D- folks on ICCup. Jaime lost his hand sure, but even right handed Jaime wasn’t swirling around killing everyone when he fought Ned way back. The same Jaime who even Euron said recently lived up to the hype. I have less issue with her kicking ass in areas where she has space and she can use her favoured tools but she’s managed to fling wights around in scenes when people much, much bigger are getting bogged down by numbers.
I agree mostly, but fighting the wights is a bit different and is arguably suited more to the Water Dancer style. The show's logic is (seemingly) they're dead on puncture with dragon glass so you don't need to cut deep like you would against an armored human. It does seem like the sort of situation that would favor the faster/lighter style over the heavier hitters.
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The episode was bad, but I'm still angry some random douchebag spoiled the ending for me few hours before I saw it.
This is a completely different show ever since Oberyn's Martell skull exploded.
Hardhome was way cooler.
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On April 30 2019 04:06 Sent. wrote:
The episode was bad, but I'm still angry some random douchebag spoiled the ending for me few hours before I saw it.
This is a completely different show ever since Oberyn's Martell skull exploded.
Hardhome was way cooler.
You mean it's a completely different show ever since they stopped following the source material and started writing their own stuff?
I'm really harsh on the writers, and I know I shouldn't be. If this was the level of writing on any other show, it would probably seem solid, it's still pretty good compared to a lot of the trash that's on TV and movies now. But you compare it to the relative genius of GRRM*? It's easy to see the dip in quality.
Martin's writing (for the most part) had teeth, subverted many expectations, and created engaging characters and interactions. Now you have a group of people left with masterfully crafted figurines and are crashing them together. It's... jarring.
*Not that Martin is the best fantasy writer on the level of Tolkien/Wolfe/Sanderson/etc, but still quite great.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On April 30 2019 03:59 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 03:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 30 2019 03:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I don't get the gripe that Arya is 'suddenly' a great fighter. Like her first scene in episode one is her being better at weapons than men, then she's been training weapons from the worlds best for most of her plotline, and then gained some divine god of death powers, and then we learn the lord of light is also on her side. Is there even someone with a higher powerlevel?
Yeah but she’s just super, super OP and feels too close to invincible, I’m happy if she’s a great fighter but she seems to be too big an outlier there. I mean she can be Flash, but there’s still Jaedongs and Bisus about the place. Her abilities vs people we’re told are the best fighters in Westeros are like Flash playing D- folks on ICCup. Jaime lost his hand sure, but even right handed Jaime wasn’t swirling around killing everyone when he fought Ned way back. The same Jaime who even Euron said recently lived up to the hype. I have less issue with her kicking ass in areas where she has space and she can use her favoured tools but she’s managed to fling wights around in scenes when people much, much bigger are getting bogged down by numbers. I agree mostly, but fighting the wights is a bit different and is arguably suited more to the Water Dancer style. The show's logic is (seemingly) they're dead on puncture with dragon glass so you don't need to cut deep like you would against an armored human. It does seem like the sort of situation that would favor the faster/lighter style over the heavier hitters.
You need that space to work with, I’m fine with Arya doing her thing when she has good conditions. She should be more of a glass cannon than they’ve depicted her at times in this episode.
I mean Viper and the Mountain, I’m totally down for that dynamic, as we knew the jeopardy if Oberyn fucked up at all.
Do we even know show logic anymore, or is it theories vs theories? If minor piercing with dragonglass is sufficient that makes their decision to send out cavalry and infantry I. Front of the walls even more baffling. Just pummel them for as long as you can with archery fire no? Although probably conveniently they somehow don’t have many arrows with dragonglass tips or something, despite it seeming a historically bad idea to try and go toe to toe with the wights in hand to hand
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This whole episode makes no sense. The numbers just don't add up. When dotrahiks were killed, we could see a good shot of undead, and the numbers were probably around 1mil undead vs 100k men. On multiple occasions we see heroes surrounded 360° by 15-20 undead...there is zero chance anyone survives that. Yet, most of them lived.
At the battles low point, when NK raises all the dead so far, it's just done. It's 1,08 mil undaed vs 0,2k men. There's zero chance anyone lives.
And then Arya somehow goes pass a full ring of undead, probably three bodies in depth and then leaps for 20meters probably and kills NK...like wtf.
This episode was just awfully bad.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On April 30 2019 04:28 Odoakar wrote:
This whole episode makes no sense. The numbers just don't add up. When dotrahiks were killed, we could see a good shot of undead, and the numbers were probably around 1mil undead vs 100k men. On multiple occasions we see heroes surrounded 360° by 15-20 undead...there is zero chance anyone survives that. Yet, most of them lived.
At the battles low point, when NK raises all the dead so far, it's just done. It's 1,08 mil undaed vs 0,2k men. There's zero chance anyone lives.
And then Arya somehow goes pass a full ring of undead, probably three bodies in depth and then leaps for 20meters probably and kills NK...like wtf.
This episode was just awfully bad.
Yeah it’s too jarring to logic for me, nothing to do with magic or fantasy.
If the initial groups got completely fucking wiped, then we see the wave hit that should wipe everyone inside it, don’t cut back to them somehow fighting in space and 1v1 with wights etc.
I’d be ok with them relocating to somewhere defensible pretty quickly, but 100% those out in the relative open should be dead. Dead as can be.
If the wights were slow Romero zombies then maybe, but we’ve seen them charging and how fast they are at both Hardhome and here, so I mean come on.
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