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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Northern Ireland23843 Posts
God fooking damnit.
In pre episode discussion I was kinda critical of how dumb it would be if the NK bought the Bran bait and just died. I think I compared it to the NK having 10 bases to 1 and getting archon toiletted.
I was expecting something else to happen, the NK having a backup plan of his own that worked, so the tension would be amped up in them trying to scramble out something else. maybe I don’t know expanding the lore a bit? Hell maybe a bit of chat between the NK and 3 Eyed Bran?
Jesus I mean just don’t do any of that at all?
I can even deal with a simple trap working if we aren’t told way in advance that that is the plan.
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On April 30 2019 02:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:10 Adreme wrote:On April 30 2019 01:59 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2019 01:48 VHbb wrote:I cannot imagine the level of saltiness in this thread after the season finale (whatever it will be)  We just had the season finale. The living won. Story over. All that’s left is admin. Considering its called Game of Thrones the throne part is sort of important. To be fair, that is just the name of the first book.
And it stands to mention that the series, “a song of ice and fire”, alludes to the prophecy and myths that permeate the books/shows, that suggest a deeper meaning to the character who “ends the long night”.
But, y’know, surprise! What a badass, etc
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On April 30 2019 02:28 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:19 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 02:10 Adreme wrote:On April 30 2019 01:59 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2019 01:48 VHbb wrote:I cannot imagine the level of saltiness in this thread after the season finale (whatever it will be) We just had the season finale. The living won. Story over. All that’s left is admin. Considering its called Game of Thrones the throne part is sort of important. To be fair, that is just the name of the first book. And it stands to mention that the series, “a song of ice and fire”, alludes to the prophecy and myths that permeate the books/shows, that suggest a deeper meaning to the character who “ends the long night”. But, y’know, surprise! What a badass, etc
So you liked the episode and thought it was a good ending? That is great and I’m glad you enjoyed yourself.
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On April 30 2019 02:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:28 ahw wrote:On April 30 2019 02:19 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 02:10 Adreme wrote:On April 30 2019 01:59 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2019 01:48 VHbb wrote:I cannot imagine the level of saltiness in this thread after the season finale (whatever it will be) We just had the season finale. The living won. Story over. All that’s left is admin. Considering its called Game of Thrones the throne part is sort of important. To be fair, that is just the name of the first book. And it stands to mention that the series, “a song of ice and fire”, alludes to the prophecy and myths that permeate the books/shows, that suggest a deeper meaning to the character who “ends the long night”. But, y’know, surprise! What a badass, etc So you liked the episode and thought it was a good ending? That is great and I’m glad you enjoyed yourself.
No i think it was awful tripe and they have stripped away the essence of what made the show and story compelling
Edit: that’s not fair to tripe it can be pretty good when prepared properly
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
Ok I’m not a genius writer but I mean, couldn’t they have used Beric/The Hound and that with Arya to actually set up some of the assassination angle? They could have been more sacrificial escorts to get her into some position she needed to be.
Also knowing that she was going to have a shot, better for me.
‘Yes she’s gonna do it yesss’
‘Oh shit son ice boi got her’
‘Oh the sneaky hidden dagger switcheroo’
Vs like ‘where the fuck did she come from?’ just ruling over that scene for me.
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I don't know what you guys were expecting. At the end the NK had to win or lose and it was most probably gonna happen in some climactic battle or something...
I don't know. I'm kind of fine with it, I didn't think it was that terrible.
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On April 30 2019 01:49 DwD wrote:
I liked how she was going for the stealth kill but couldnt help herself to yell out while flying through the air.
Also... Where the FUCK did she come from? There were hundreds and hundreds of undead there just 2 seconds ago fighting the guards surrounding Bran
Bigger question is where did she jump from. The tree right above them? Because that's a garden with no structures near where the NK and bran where.
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On April 30 2019 02:35 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ok I’m not a genius writer but I mean, couldn’t they have used Beric/The Hound and that with Arya to actually set up some of the assassination angle? They could have been more sacrificial escorts to get her into some position she needed to be.
Also knowing that she was going to have a shot, better for me.
‘Yes she’s gonna do it yesss’
‘Oh shit son ice boi got her’
‘Oh the sneaky hidden dagger switcheroo’
Vs like ‘where the fuck did she come from?’ just ruling over that scene for me.
Seriously, does that make a difference that we don't know what angle Arya came from?
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United States41989 Posts
On April 30 2019 02:10 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 01:59 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2019 01:48 VHbb wrote:I cannot imagine the level of saltiness in this thread after the season finale (whatever it will be) We just had the season finale. The living won. Story over. All that’s left is admin. Considering its called Game of Thrones the throne part is sort of important.
Is it though? In a hundred years they’ll all be dead and their grandkids won’t give a fuck. The administrative questions of how the Seven Kingdoms will be managed (free north etc) are all that’s left to resolve at this point. The apocalypse already happened.
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On April 30 2019 02:37 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 01:49 DwD wrote:
I liked how she was going for the stealth kill but couldnt help herself to yell out while flying through the air.
Also... Where the FUCK did she come from? There were hundreds and hundreds of undead there just 2 seconds ago fighting the guards surrounding Bran Bigger question is where did she jump from. The tree right above them? Because that's a garden with no structures near where the NK and bran where.
Geez, who cares? It's not a strategy game, it's a story.
"Hamlet sucks because why didn't the king have a bodyguard at the end and why did his court let Hamlet butcher him? Makes no sense at all, bad writing, 0 stars."
I mean consistently and all that is important, but if you can't enjoy a story because you don't know what strategy Arya used to get to the NK, you are the one with a problem imo.
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On April 30 2019 02:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:10 Adreme wrote:On April 30 2019 01:59 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2019 01:48 VHbb wrote:I cannot imagine the level of saltiness in this thread after the season finale (whatever it will be) We just had the season finale. The living won. Story over. All that’s left is admin. Considering its called Game of Thrones the throne part is sort of important. Is it though? In a hundred years they’ll all be dead and their grandkids won’t give a fuck. The administrative questions of how the Seven Kingdoms will be managed (free north etc) are all that’s left to resolve at this point. The apocalypse already happened.
I have to admit that it's gonna be really hard to care about Cersei and the golden company after that.
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On April 30 2019 02:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:39 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2019 02:10 Adreme wrote:On April 30 2019 01:59 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2019 01:48 VHbb wrote:I cannot imagine the level of saltiness in this thread after the season finale (whatever it will be) We just had the season finale. The living won. Story over. All that’s left is admin. Considering its called Game of Thrones the throne part is sort of important. Is it though? In a hundred years they’ll all be dead and their grandkids won’t give a fuck. The administrative questions of how the Seven Kingdoms will be managed (free north etc) are all that’s left to resolve at this point. The apocalypse already happened. I have to admit that it's gonna be really hard to care about Cersei and the golden company after that.
This is the problem. Idgaf about this
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United States41989 Posts
On April 30 2019 02:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I don't know what you guys were expecting. At the end the NK had to win or lose and it was most probably gonna happen in some climactic battle or something...
I don't know. I'm kind of fine with it, I didn't think it was that terrible.
This wasn’t the end. Apparently this was a side plot that needed to be cleared up before getting around to the end plot of Cersei.
I’d have liked it if the NK looked at the castle with the dragon glass and dragons and just headed south, killing everyone and then raising an army of millions of wights. Jon’s whole thing was that they need to fight together or die separately, Cersei dying separately and in doing so dooming them all would have been great. But no, Cersei was right, her plan worked.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
I actually think GoT is kind of actually a bad show this season, maybe some of it is my personal sensibilities. I can find stuff to nitpick in discussing things afterwards with friends and whatnot, there are so many ‘what’ moments that are taking me out of the show when I’m watching it the first time.
I struggle to place everyone in relationship to each other way more than previous battle episodes. People seem to be stocked up on scrolls of town portal the way they navigate.
The military strategy side of it makes zero, zero sense. I really don’t need much detail here, just do sensible things that make sense, like not having giant catapults that you fire about 2 times, and having your army outside your fortress stronghold thing
I like me some spectacle, just ground it in something that makes sense and you can follow better. Hardhome was way better an episode in terms of wights doing their thing.
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On April 30 2019 02:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I don't know what you guys were expecting. At the end the NK had to win or lose and it was most probably gonna happen in some climactic battle or something...
I don't know. I'm kind of fine with it, I didn't think it was that terrible.
Sure, but how it happened was narratively unfulfilling. So much about the Night King and the White Walker threat had build up, prophecy, and personal conflicts for various characters and they all were just... kinda dropped for a relatively cheap surprise attack from a character that had nothing to do with the Long Night storyline until this episode.
On April 30 2019 02:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:35 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ok I’m not a genius writer but I mean, couldn’t they have used Beric/The Hound and that with Arya to actually set up some of the assassination angle? They could have been more sacrificial escorts to get her into some position she needed to be.
Also knowing that she was going to have a shot, better for me.
‘Yes she’s gonna do it yesss’
‘Oh shit son ice boi got her’
‘Oh the sneaky hidden dagger switcheroo’
Vs like ‘where the fuck did she come from?’ just ruling over that scene for me. Seriously, does that make a difference that we don't know what angle Arya came from?
No, but it does make a difference in knowing how she got past a literal army without being seen, stopped, or at least noticed. "She's sneaky" doesn't really cover it considering she struggled to get past 10 zombies in a freaking library, let alone an entire army including all the White Walker commanders (who are far more sentient and intelligent than the Wights).
You could make the argument that the Night King didn't know or care about her, but he also didn't know or care about Theon and at least then he waited until all the other Ironborn were dead and Theon was out of Dragonglass Arrows before showing up. You'd think he'd at least put his army on high alert during the only time he was not actively protecting himself.
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On April 30 2019 02:43 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually think GoT is kind of actually a bad show this season, maybe some of it is my personal sensibilities. I can find stuff to nitpick in discussing things afterwards with friends and whatnot, there are so many ‘what’ moments that are taking me out of the show when I’m watching it the first time.
I struggle to place everyone in relationship to each other way more than previous battle episodes. People seem to be stocked up on scrolls of town portal the way they navigate.
The military strategy side of it makes zero, zero sense. I really don’t need much detail here, just do sensible things that make sense, like not having giant catapults that you fire about 2 times, and having your army outside your fortress stronghold thing
I like me some spectacle, just ground it in something that makes sense and you can follow better. Hardhome was way better an episode in terms of wights doing their thing.
That's the thing, for me the selling point of GoT (ASoIAF) was that it was fantasy with fantastical elements - but it was grounded in reality. Characters got punished for making mistakes. The shocking deaths were always backed by narrative reasons, not just randomly dead for surprise value.
Now characters can get hit by a literal tidal wave of zombies and my complaint isn't "how do zombies know how to make a tidal wave of bodies", but rather "how do you survive that when literally everyone else around you dies in seconds?". The reality that made the fantasy more fantastical is gone, and now it's just kinda brainless entertainment.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On April 30 2019 02:43 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I don't know what you guys were expecting. At the end the NK had to win or lose and it was most probably gonna happen in some climactic battle or something...
I don't know. I'm kind of fine with it, I didn't think it was that terrible. Sure, but how it happened was narratively unfulfilling. So much about the Night King and the White Walker threat had build up, prophecy, and personal conflicts for various characters and they all were just... kinda dropped for a relatively cheap surprise attack from a character that had nothing to do with the Long Night storyline until this episode. Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 30 2019 02:35 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ok I’m not a genius writer but I mean, couldn’t they have used Beric/The Hound and that with Arya to actually set up some of the assassination angle? They could have been more sacrificial escorts to get her into some position she needed to be.
Also knowing that she was going to have a shot, better for me.
‘Yes she’s gonna do it yesss’
‘Oh shit son ice boi got her’
‘Oh the sneaky hidden dagger switcheroo’
Vs like ‘where the fuck did she come from?’ just ruling over that scene for me. Seriously, does that make a difference that we don't know what angle Arya came from? No, but it does make a difference in knowing how she got past a literal army without being seen, stopped, or at least noticed. "She's sneaky" doesn't really cover it considering she struggled to get past 10 zombies in a freaking library, let alone an entire army including all the White Walker commanders (who are far more sentient and intelligent than the Wights). You could make the argument that the Night King didn't know or care about her, but he also didn't know or care about Theon and at least then he waited until all the other Ironborn were dead and Theon was out of Dragonglass Arrows before showing up. You'd think he'd at least put his army on high alert during the only time he was not actively protecting himself.
I wouldn’t mind so much if hubris was one of the NK’s shown weak spots but we haven’t even seen that side of him reall, he’s consistently outsmarted his opponents
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On April 30 2019 02:47 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:43 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually think GoT is kind of actually a bad show this season, maybe some of it is my personal sensibilities. I can find stuff to nitpick in discussing things afterwards with friends and whatnot, there are so many ‘what’ moments that are taking me out of the show when I’m watching it the first time.
I struggle to place everyone in relationship to each other way more than previous battle episodes. People seem to be stocked up on scrolls of town portal the way they navigate.
The military strategy side of it makes zero, zero sense. I really don’t need much detail here, just do sensible things that make sense, like not having giant catapults that you fire about 2 times, and having your army outside your fortress stronghold thing
I like me some spectacle, just ground it in something that makes sense and you can follow better. Hardhome was way better an episode in terms of wights doing their thing. That's the thing, for me the selling point of GoT (ASoIAF) was that it was fantasy with fantastical elements - but it was grounded in reality. Characters got punished for making mistakes. The shocking deaths were always backed by narrative reasons, not just randomly dead for surprise value. Now characters can get hit by a literal tidal wave of zombies and my complaint isn't "how do zombies know how to make a tidal wave of bodies", but rather "how do you survive that when literally everyone else around you dies in seconds?". The reality that made the fantasy more fantastical is gone, and now it's just kinda brainless entertainment.
An example just from that episode:
Initial flood of zombies, after the lights of the cavalry charge, like a bloody terrifying wave coming through the darkness.
Which tbh I liked, you see the first waves pushed back just by the numbers, feels real in terms of this is how momentum works.
Then grown men are struggling when the fights split out more, but Arya is just wrecking stuff as they come at her one at a time
Then the wights saunter around slowly looking for Arya instead of just tearing that library apart?
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So the good thing is that GoT still gives me goosebumps, i was really nervous (in the good kind of way) when the episode started. I enjoyed it but holy shit i've never said "this is the worst idea in all of the ideas ever" so many times in a single episode
1)Lyanna Mormont still a badass, still that went way over the top
2) does anyone in Westeros after Tywins death have any kind of tactical sense or how to execute a battle plan? Like "well horses run very fast, so we gonna send them in first obviously. The trebuchets are excellent defense for our troops so naturally they have to be IN FRONT WHERE THEY GET IMMIDIATLY OVERRUN. Now the important part: the archers are not allowed to fire till the battle is lost. THIS ONE IS REALLY IMPORTANT" Why the fuck did they even fight outside the walls? Yes that makes sense if your army is way too big for the Castle but after they retreated they had like 3 men for every section of wall. Makes you wonder if the dead would have even breached the castle with thousands of well trained Unsullied on top of the walls.. Yes the ice dragon could have done something about that but still..
3) I'm actually mad at the fact that the dead in the crypts did reanimate. Incredibly mad.
4) How does anyone who is not Drogon survive this battle. Like, for real. Everyone should be more dead than dead. There are like 27 people left in winterfell and at least 18 are main characters. They did not even kill off any real main characters even if they were already burried under tons of wights.
5) Seriously, the battle plan (yes it's already under number 2 but i'm super mad about it). The kamikaze horsemen, then the artillery in front of everything. Archers not even attempted to be used to break the waves of the dead so they dont just dogpile everything
6) Many others including myself already talked about how anticlimatic it would be if the nightking went down in this episode. But the silly knife switcheroo made it even worse than anticipated. So here is this evil ice zombie demon guy who is incredibly old. I bet he's gonna be super arrogant and allow me to kill him with a simple knife trick. At least Arya did it and not Jon in some even worse heroic 1v1 swordfight. Also where the fuck did she even come from? Bran looked to be sourrounded by a solid wall of wights and walkers.
7) Is it just me or did the Berric death scene where he held the doorway with both hands remind you of some kind of Jesus analogy?
All in all it feels really hard to give a fuck about what happens next. The Cersei story feels kinda meh and low stakes after they just killed a millions strong ice zombie horde. Plus they dont really have anything left to fight her. Unless suddenly a Tully army or something arrives.
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On April 30 2019 02:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I don't know what you guys were expecting. At the end the NK had to win or lose and it was most probably gonna happen in some climactic battle or something...
I don't know. I'm kind of fine with it, I didn't think it was that terrible.
I would say it's disappointing because for the most part the NK doesn't fight, he tramples on though. At no point do we feel like the NK is going to lose, the build up to his win then just go sike nvm. It feels unearned story wise. Yes, none of it is so far out of left field that i couldn't try to explain it away but it's not integrated into the story that well.
Which is why it's fine, just fine. That in itself is a disappointment given this was a major story line in the background for seasons. As an audience we're heavily invested at this point, assassination would have been more acceptable(imo) than a large battle sequence then a derp of an ending. A good battle sequence is earned, one side spent the entire timing losing so nothing feels earned; they start with everything and just keep on losing and then the battle is over. NK death and the battle before it didn't feel connected.
We have no investment in the NK he's closer to a force of nature than a character. A good force a nature villain makes the hero confront some aspect of themselves or society. In which we learn more about the hero themselves or view the concepts from the eyes of the hero, Clegane is really the only one to do this well. There are plenty of half assed attempts at this narrative wise for a lot of the other characters but it's really not developed. It's a disappointment because there was plenty of other things talking about the long night, talking about the starks etc. None of which played into how the NK died.
The episode felt like a transformers movie, a lot of spectacle because they can which took away from storytelling.
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EPT
