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On May 22 2013 20:16 nojok wrote:
Ok thank you very much, I'll try him this way. Concerning skills, I max spirit 2 point in stun 1 point in ulti and max stats after this and put points in aura once I feel a bit tankier. The long sleep is not that amazing as people will most of the time unsleep all opponents. Though I had a game with max stun and I delayed their push for years, team had the whole time to respan.
maxing stun is situational. like you said, it helps a lot with stalling pushes, so if you need it for that then you should max it. if you only need it as a set up skill, then 2 or 3 is enough. dont get stats over aura. aura is a really good skill and if you went sange like i like to do, you should be fairly tanky provided you dont get it too late.
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early game i buy back if i can secure a kill without dying or i have midas on cd. or if i can deter a dive on my teammates.
wasting buyback early game isnt the biggest deal, its not like hon where you only get 2 buybacks for the entire game.
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Is there an article somwhere that clearly shows what can and can't be purged by various purges? I found this but I don't really understand their chart. I assume there is some kind of color hierarchy but it isn't obvious to me what that is and I don't think it is listed on that wiki page.
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On May 23 2013 04:45 Shootemup. wrote:Is there an article somwhere that clearly shows what can and can't be purged by various purges? I found this but I don't really understand their chart. I assume there is some kind of color hierarchy but it isn't obvious to me what that is and I don't think it is listed on that wiki page.
The colors just designate what the ability is. Black is an ultimate. Green is an item. Red is a normal ability. Blue is a neutral creep ability. They cannot be purged at all.
Do you have a specific ability you want to know about or just general reading?
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On May 23 2013 05:06 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 04:45 Shootemup. wrote:Is there an article somwhere that clearly shows what can and can't be purged by various purges? I found this but I don't really understand their chart. I assume there is some kind of color hierarchy but it isn't obvious to me what that is and I don't think it is listed on that wiki page. The colors just designate what the ability is. Black is an ultimate. Green is an item. Red is a normal ability. They cannot be purged at all. Do you have a specific ability you want to know about or just general reading?
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I thought maybe the colors designated (de)buffs that couldn't be purged by the different types of purges higher up on the page. I wasn't really looking for anything in particular, just general reading. Thanks for helping clear that up!
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United States47024 Posts
On May 23 2013 02:40 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 20:16 nojok wrote:
Ok thank you very much, I'll try him this way. Concerning skills, I max spirit 2 point in stun 1 point in ulti and max stats after this and put points in aura once I feel a bit tankier. The long sleep is not that amazing as people will most of the time unsleep all opponents. Though I had a game with max stun and I delayed their push for years, team had the whole time to respan. maxing stun is situational. like you said, it helps a lot with stalling pushes, so if you need it for that then you should max it. if you only need it as a set up skill, then 2 or 3 is enough. dont get stats over aura. aura is a really good skill and if you went sange like i like to do, you should be fairly tanky provided you dont get it too late.
Realistically, when you pick TC, you're probably going to be the most appropriate Mek carrier, and honestly, it gives him a lot of what he wants (all stats, armor, general survivability). It's early effectiveness is much higher than Sange.
If you expect to be in the thick of fighting, you should get BKB on him. Being able to STAY on someone to keep the aura on them has a LOT of value on TC. It's comparable to getting BKB on Mag.
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Are item build choices for Gyrocopter pretty much the same as those for Luna? They both seem to be pretty similar actually in how their skills work. For example, Gyro likes to stay mobile and on top of his enemies when ganking (rocket barrage), and same with Luna (ult and low range attack). Also, both have multi-player attacks (glaives and flak cannon), so +damage items are key.
It seems like their core item choices are very similar: tranqs/PTs, helm of dominator, bkb, yasha, drums, ring of aquila, shadow blade (depending). It seems like Gyro tends to go for MKB more often than Luna (for the damage). Are there other big differences I should pay attention to when building for Gyro? Or is the thought process rather similar to Luna's item build choices?
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Gyro is less limited by his attack range since flak cannon has enourmous range, so he doesn't have to worry about surviveability quite as much as Luna does.
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On May 23 2013 10:34 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Gyro is less limited by his attack range since flak cannon has enourmous range, so he doesn't have to worry about surviveability quite as much as Luna does.
What does this translate into in terms of item progression?
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On May 23 2013 13:12 asaed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 10:34 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Gyro is less limited by his attack range since flak cannon has enourmous range, so he doesn't have to worry about surviveability quite as much as Luna does. What does this translate into in terms of item progression?
basically luna will build a bkb sooner(like 2nd or 3rd but then again it can sometimes go that way on gyro as well) and consider items like satanic over items like divine rapier, and maybe a butterfly at the time a gyro would likely go for a mkb, they do build quite similarly.
also deadalus sometimes on luna over mkb always on gyro since (i think) the bounce will scale from the crit damage
EDIT: also treads/tranqs and phase is a difference. Maybe think about it this way, luna finishes a bkb and then goes for bfly, gyro finishes bkb and goes for mkb, difference is like that.
btw in dota 1 luna would lose her attack animation completely i think it was. How did that work exactly did she do damage instantly or not at all did glaives fuck up?
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I'm suddenly seeing 2-1-2 in pro-games again. Tongfu did it to iG, RS did it to LGD, and there was at least one in the TI3 quals as well. What's the rationale? I thought 3-1-1 was almost universally superior?
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3-1-1 pretty much always beats 2-1-2 unless you have a really weak trilane
tf vs ig rotated supports a lot, idk if you can call that 2-1-2. i believe they expected a jungle ds and a dual lane, which was why they started with 2-1-2
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So my usual build on Weaver (after Linken's discussion & randoming him and then falling in love) is Aquilia -> Drums -> Brown Boots -> BKB. After that, I've been going Desolator, but is MKB or Crit better? I know Desolator should be used for a good -Armor lineup & pushing and MKB versus Butterfly/Blind, but what if I don't have either of those? For raw damage, which is the best for Weaver? And if I were for some reason not need a BKB (if it even is a good choice?!), should I just get a Vit Booster for some extra health before going into a bigger damage item?
Is there any way to fit a Medallion into that build? I'm kind of low on inventory space (Boots, Drum, Ring, BKB, TP, part of next big item/any dusts/sentries/ect.), so I don't think I can unless my whole team does a high aggression strategy.
Also, what position does Weaver play? I usually play him as a 2, but how effective is he as a 1? It seems like he can get shut down easily as the lone carry in a pub, but I found I'm extremely effective when I do a 2 carry set up. I know "anything works in pubs," but I just got into playing carries from being a hard support player, so I'm not super crazy good....and I'm not so cynical about pubs either. Should I only play him as the lone carry when I have a really beefy and strong team to be behind, is there a few techniques to make him work in any lineup, or should I find someone else to play when I need to be the sole farmer of the team.
And one last, more general question. Is too much -armor bad? I know that it caps at -20 armor, but doesn't armor reduction become less effective at around -10 to -15ish armor? Is there a sweet spot around there that, if reasonable, you should focus on damage rather than adding another -armor item to your team? It just came up when I was playing Weaver with a SF, thinking about our armor reduction, then wondering if I would even need a Desolator if I had a Dazzle & possibly an AC carrier on the team as well.
edit: Should I max Swarm first, or is it too risky to not max Stealth?
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Weaver as first position is kind of cheesy, simply because he doesn't scale that well into lategame. His statgrowth is weak, armor and invis get weaker the longer the game progresses. IF you want to play him as the sole carry, you better be able to get an overwhelming advantage during midgame.
Deso vs MKB vs Crit comes down to what you want and when you want it. Early on the Deso does insane deeps, MKB obviously gives you the true strike (should be the main reason to buy it) and Crit gives you more damage (similar to Deso) but scales way better into lategame.
When you want to build Medallion you have to drop something obviously. Weaver is unique in that case that he likes so many small items (Urn, Drum, Medallion, Bottle, Aquila). If you want to fit a Medallion in you can consider something among the lines of Medallion -> Aquila -> Vanguard. After those first two items you're good on everything but a little bit of tankiness and with those 3+boots+tp you're sitting at 5 slots from which you can comfortably work into a big item. Also keep in mind that it's not uncommon anymore to transition back into a radiance from those small midgame items with the idea being that the Radiance is easier achieved by kills/towers while pressuring the enemy team than from sitting in lane for 20 minutes.
In theory, yes, too much -armor could be bad but in practice it takes some genuine effort to get to that point in a game. Unless you specifically build a -armor strat I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Swarm vs Shakuchi is about "When do I want to teamfight?" - Swarm is an insane teamfighting skill, ideally you want it maxed once people go into flat out 5n5s, if you're e.g. starved and offlane sacrificing 1-2 levels of shakuchi is completely fine to hit that timing. In general however, more than one point into Geminate is a Luxury unless it allows to dominate your lane.
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On May 23 2013 15:25 Belisarius wrote:
I'm suddenly seeing 2-1-2 in pro-games again. Tongfu did it to iG, RS did it to LGD, and there was at least one in the TI3 quals as well. What's the rationale? I thought 3-1-1 was almost universally superior?
I assume you're talking about LGD vs FD in the eastern qualifier?
I took some time to analyze that spot for myself since the commentators completely whiffed the point of that "crazy" laneswitch at level one resulting in LGD lanes being built 2 - 2 - 1.
Lineups were BM AM Kunkka SD Visage (LGD, Dire) vs Gyro Magnus KotL Nyx Jugger (FD, Radiant).
Initially LGD has their BM top, AM mid and a trilane bot. They recognize that the enemy lanes are built around Jugger/Magnus/Gyro. Since offlaning the Magnus is something they generally don't expect they assume Magnus mid, Gyro safelane and offensive trilane.
Right before the rune spawn they place a ward at their ancient-cliff spotting Nyx+Jugger and immediately completely switch their lanes around. If Jugger+Nyx are bottom that means they are defensive trilaning. They don't want to potentially put the AM 1n1 vs Gyro, but they have strong enough duo lanes to beat either of them while guaranteeing freefarm to the AM with just one support if they rotate the BM into their jungle.
Final lanesetups:
Magnus vs AM+Visage top
Gyro vs SD+Kunkka mid
KotL Nyx Jugger bot vs BM jungle, moving bot lane once it pushes out.
Since their initial lane setup beats the crap out of FDs solos FD has to start rotating supports which slowly makes their lineup fall apart. Classic scenario where 2 2 1 laning means the stronger option compared to a trilane.
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Is jungle skeleton king possible?
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On May 23 2013 20:28 10734 wrote:
Is jungle skeleton king possible?
Possible, but too slow at lvl 1.
Edit: not really sure what role SK is supposed to fullfill in Dota 2 either. When would you ever want one on your team?
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On May 23 2013 21:05 Saechiis wrote:Possible, but too slow at lvl 1. Edit: not really sure what role SK is supposed to fullfill in Dota 2 either. When would you ever want one on your team?
I thought so, some guy wanted me to jungle so he could have a solo lane...
A carry like sven but single target and twice as tanky? Reincarnation isn't a great spell in theory and at higher levels but at low levels people will still focus you and you'll tank so much damage.
He's fun to play though, hit q and manmode everyone. And his voice is awesome.
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Skele king pretty much just sucks.
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On May 23 2013 21:05 Saechiis wrote:Possible, but too slow at lvl 1. Edit: not really sure what role SK is supposed to fullfill in Dota 2 either. When would you ever want one on your team?
Honestly, I think he's little more than a nice carry for beginners, I really don't think he makes any sense in a competitive lineup. His Q is definitely not good enough for him to work as a support, and his ulti is just meh. It's a free aegis, but then again, it feels like SK is in no position to outcarry anyone, aegis or not. If SK is in the position where he's carrying hard enough that his ulti is a big deal, he probably doesn't need the ulti anyway since he's so tanky.
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EPT
