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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
On June 14 2016 19:41 wims80 wrote: Oracle bat counter isn't a new concept and was certainly not invented by Liquid in Manila of course it's not New, but only liquid did it at Manila, if i remember corectly. On the other hand, there also weren't that many bat picks. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On June 14 2016 19:41 wims80 wrote: Oracle bat counter isn't a new concept and was certainly not invented by Liquid in Manila Well Liquid wasn't using it, so LGD had no reason to consider a ban. And that bat was one sad mammal that game  And if I were liquid I'd totally hold of some of these pocket picks like the Dusa drow complete pocketstrat or the oracle thingy/whatever riki-like they come up with next and either stick to complete standard strenght cores or try out some more wacky , not-sure if can work drafts at ESL. 125K for the winner, 50k for 2nd is pretty much meaningless for teams that are expected to be top3 at TI | ||
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MSanch
Belgium89 Posts
On June 14 2016 03:14 evanthebouncy! wrote: right i just want more discussion on this because it is such a curious thing for me. I have no idea how to plainly out-draft liquid and out-play them. The bueaty of the liquid draft is it is extremely difficult to outdraft it, you can use your superior mobility and control to still shred the enemy team which is in part why I think Kuro was so stubborn with this particular draft, because I believed that he belived it had very little counters if played right. I really want to know why OG is able to take that game (game 2 and game 3) and if it is just pure outplay or outdraft. On paper the liquid draft cannot be out-drafted, at least no clear counter draft exist in my mind. In the game 1 at Epicenter Liquid is also behind because they loose all the teamfights. Until Newbie is a bit over confident and try to take this fight by coming on a choke point. Liquid is perfectly spread out and engage perfectly the initiators of Newbee. This is the first fight where FATA can dish out damage (with a nuker hero that shouldn't be in the chrono if not initiated) and they reverse the game only with that fight. In game 2 they only have disruptor that can do something during the chrono and they couldn't find a fight truly in their favor like at Epicenter. So i'd say OG has a better draft IF they can execute it as well as Liquid who has a simpler plan to follow. Game 3 is all with 4 melee heroes but ES and VS can disrupt the initiation way better than Disruptor. But all 3 cores rely en man fighting and they are against a Sven... Again I feel Liquid has a simpler plan but OG will have a huge advantage if they can deliver theirs. And Liquid couldn't make them fail. And I truly think DK is a big part of that because he can't pressure enough during the laning phase and then OG could develop theirs heroes fast enough (fast blink Lion, ...). In both game against OG, MC had a rough start also (because they didn't had to focus on mid, unlike in the Newbie series). | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On June 14 2016 03:14 evanthebouncy! wrote: right i just want more discussion on this because it is such a curious thing for me. I have no idea how to plainly out-draft liquid and out-play them. The bueaty of the liquid draft is it is extremely difficult to outdraft it, you can use your superior mobility and control to still shred the enemy team which is in part why I think Kuro was so stubborn with this particular draft, because I believed that he belived it had very little counters if played right. I really want to know why OG is able to take that game (game 2 and game 3) and if it is just pure outplay or outdraft. On paper the liquid draft cannot be out-drafted, at least no clear counter draft exist in my mind. I think you might be thinking about Drafting in the wrong way, which causes the bigger issue. Game 1 was a clear "out draft". Fly, especially with first pick, can be baited into traps in a draft. That's why the Slardar + Riki picks were instant from Kuro. Lifestealer without the two best vehicles actually didn't have a great win rate. It's only with the vehicles that he was unstoppable. But when we got into the later games, we got to see what high-end, modern drafting is actually about. In the era of Dual & Tri-core lineups, it's about synergies among the draft. Void + Phoenix was the extremely strong synergy that OG was working around in team fights. Even when they weren't drafting for heroes that really did damage *in* the Chrono. But, with the Chrono lockdown & follow-up stuns, which is what OG drafted, it allowed their better Laning phase to win them team fights. Liquid's problem is that Void + Phoenix means you *have* to stay spread out until you get the jump on the Phoenix & Void. But they had Lycan + DK + Slardar as their cores in both games 2 & 3. Together, those are good cores. Against Phoenix/Void, those are bad cores, as they'll be grouped up a lot. The games could have been won by Liquid, but the difficulty is far higher with those drafts. OG was well-prepared for what Liquid was going to do, came in with drafts to deal with it and executed well enough. Only game 3 really started to go heavily in OG's favor before 20 minutes. Games 2 & 4 Liquid could have still won. But, in the grand finals of a Major, having a draft that's a lot harder to execute than the other team is normally going to be a loss. As for Epicenter, Game 2 of the finals was simply a 5th pick Alchemist. It was a banning mistake. Game 3 was the same issue, as Kuro let Newbee get both Beastmaster & Lion. (Lion is the *core* Newbee hero. Because Chuan plays the best Lion right now, they can produce synergies that you just don't expect. That's what being "Next Level" on a hero causes. That's also the reason that Invoker was banned all 4 games at the Manila Major by TL.) Newbee is good, but TL was playing better at Epicenter. But drafting errors are drafting errors and they lose you games. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FnMQ9H2.png) | ||
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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zolasell
Greece288 Posts
On June 17 2016 21:01 Saechiis wrote: Is that what we're calling it now? you are joking right? | ||
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RolleMcKnolle
Germany1054 Posts
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
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Kyir
United States1047 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On June 14 2016 16:03 LemOn wrote: Esl is purely for hiding strats and experimenting witg new ones for TI. I Don't care one bit how we do but I sure want to see some fancy drafts from Liquid Haha called it! Time to watch watch the vods now  | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
The Sven completely exploded him in fights post-mkb but fun to watch overall. Kuro wouldn't be lost on farming mid /carry role | ||
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
DO IT BOYS! | ||
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X.Salvation
Singapore66 Posts
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Aurrius
Germany120 Posts
And after the next loss aganist OG i really think Heen is not the right Coach for Liquid | ||
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
On June 19 2016 19:38 Aurrius wrote: It feels like that this OG is too strong for Liquid atm especially when they get a Elder Titan. And after the next loss aganist OG i really think Heen is not the right Coach for Liquid are you serious? they won epicenter, got second at the manila major, and just now had a very close series against og again. i dont see how this is bad. and how is it heens fault? they have more then enough time to prepare for ti6. i dont see any issues;) | ||
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