EPTOn June 12 2016 21:58 LemOn wrote:
I meant invite directly into the Grand Finals I'm afraid we're not getting it now
I meant invite directly into the Grand Finals I'm afraid we're not getting it now
Ah ok makes more sense now. I was very confused.
Team Liquid Discussion - Page 73
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
Ah ok makes more sense now. I was very confused. | ||
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BasalGanglia
31 Posts
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Nikto
Slovakia410 Posts
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
Nevertheless great run from Liquid, i'm pretty sure that with more versatile drafts we can easily beat OG, like we did several times in the past. Couple more big events before TI, lets hope we can win them all  | ||
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giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
from a draft point of view I liked liquid's draft so much more. In fact the exact same match up was played against newbee in epicenter game 1. compare that with game 2 of manila major, OG runs a very similar draft yet completely wreks liquid with it: What was different and what changed? Both has phoenix void, and both very good phoenix void players. Liquid with the classic beastmaster lycan combo running people over. Both Newbee and OG had early game advantage before the liquid mid-game took off. Is NewBee actually going to win that game and just had some mis-plays, or is something on the draft level fundimentally different? The only difference I could see is OG runs a void as a carry whereas newbee runs void as offlane, and we've seen the void is crucial in teamfights for control and needs to stay alive. That's about the only difference I can find. Let's discuss because this is extremely curious. Liquid runs this style that nobody else can run as well as them. NewBee was close to figuring it out and OG finally figured it out completely and stomped. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
It doesn't concern me much that they lost, but it does concern me that they looked so lost and desperate in their loss. Not like the game versus Newbee where they got off to an awful start and fought well with what they had to still make it an annoying game for Newbee to take. You could still feel confidence and planning behind their play despite getting destroyed. Versus OG their play looked so fragile and unsure, as if they were first time finalists. @Evan: Fata got destroyed midlane by the juggernaut. Liquid actually rarely get outCS'ed in the laning stage. | ||
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Akill0816
Germany90 Posts
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giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
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Kyir
United States1047 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On June 13 2016 03:54 Akill0816 wrote: The run from Liquid was impressive but i really don't understand why the choose to play the same draft twice in a row. It seams their Medusa/Drow Draft was the only pocket draft they had left. I would have been happy if they changed it up a bit more in the grand finals. That's the big disadvantage of being in the lower bracket and have to prepare for a very strong team in LB finals. That + extra fatigue are very large factors when the teams are this close in skill | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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jinfreaks
United States94 Posts
On June 13 2016 03:34 evanthebouncy! wrote: + Show Spoiler + I have no idea how liquid lost game 2 and game 3. from a draft point of view I liked liquid's draft so much more. In fact the exact same match up was played against newbee in epicenter game 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00CBJYS6PHY compare that with game 2 of manila major, OG runs a very similar draft yet completely wreks liquid with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DH38OrsFY What was different and what changed? Both has phoenix void, and both very good phoenix void players. Liquid with the classic beastmaster lycan combo running people over. Both Newbee and OG had early game advantage before the liquid mid-game took off. Is NewBee actually going to win that game and just had some mis-plays, or is something on the draft level fundimentally different? The only difference I could see is OG runs a void as a carry whereas newbee runs void as offlane, and we've seen the void is crucial in teamfights for control and needs to stay alive. That's about the only difference I can find. Let's discuss because this is extremely curious. Liquid runs this style that nobody else can run as well as them. NewBee was close to figuring it out and OG finally figured it out completely and stomped. tl;dr the void and elder titan pick drastically places a wrench in liquid's game plans as well as team fight mechanics. essentially allowing OG to dictate teamfights as well as the strategy of the opposing enemy team. game 2 and game 3 were outdrafts in my opinion, a key thing to note is that the liquid's DK pick for fata gives miracle free reign to choose carry potential melee heroes in the mid lane. game 2: the game plan of liquid is to basically 5 man midgame death push (if not fall back to lycan splitpush 4p1) yet neither of the goals of both plans can be realized in the face of OG's lineup. Faceless void will catch out splitpushers, and in the team fights they are mainly melee that can be easily vacummed and isolated (with void ult) also the void ult forces liquid's lineup to engage when they don't want to (or run away with a loss) once OG accrues enough advantage, Liquid's lineup is not great for high ground defence due to lack of wave clear, so OG can just hit tower, heal ward, hit towers and Liquid can't do anything about it. game 3: liquid have the same game plan, but geared towards more physical dps. OG picks up Sven to use warcry to essentially nullify the physical dps buffs that liquid's lineup exchanged magical aoe for in the midgame, coincidentally the peak fighting potential in liquid's lineup. The other control heroes allow for OG to essentially kite and catch out heroes. --------------------- If anyone has seen OG clean sweep MVP, you can tell of all the teams this tourny that OG has adapted the best to this tourny meta. Most teams were successful by employing the same midgame death push(backup plan with split push), using physical dps, mobile melee cores, in particular Newbee and liquid. OG has adapted their typical picks to control the flow of team fights, using a void and elder titan picks, they are able to force fights, isolate targets, and catch out heroes. With elder titan and void, its hard for teams to use their melee cores to save them or engage without getting caught in the crossfire [only exception is probably death prophet, but she can't save caught out cores, in which case OG and liquid opted for a lategame hero]. Void in all the game series does not need to land a chrono on all heroes, just one hero because all the other heroes are short range/ melee heroes and have to walk around or into the chrono. With respect to elder titan, it is similar with his ult, as well as his spirit echo stomp forcing the disengage from enemy team. It's not a coincidence that you see liquid's teamfight consist more running around and dodging abilities than killing the enemy team. another point to emphasize is how well OG's lineup counters even the teamfight retreat/disengage as well as catching out solo splitpushers fast and efficiently. does the addition of phoenix matter? not for this strategy imo, but the hero massively benefits OG's type of lineup being able to simultaneously heal and damage the enemy team and forcing the enemy team to switch targets onto phoenix. It also doesn't help that the fire spirits drastically debuff the dps of the opposing team. In summary, it is not a necessary pick, but is surely a helpful pick both in synergy and counterplay. I imagine if liquid banned out phoenix, that OG would replace with Witch doctor (offering similar benefits to phoenix, but slightly weaker) ---------------------- I think of all the games, game 4 was an inexcusable loss from Liquid. I think they were very far ahead from the first 20 minutes of the game, but messed up with one team fight. Sure there was the phoenix counter to the LD bear, but there was a weaver that essentially has free reign with the lack of disables on OG's side. Radiance on bear would nullify the OG's blink midgame advantages. But liquid threw a crucial fight in the rosh pit. Overall, I would fault this series on Kuro's drafting, he was more focused on making reactionary drafts to OG (no doubt he was exhausted and out of ideas after newbee) | ||
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jinfreaks
United States94 Posts
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BasalGanglia
31 Posts
Not to take anything away from OG, they were the better team this time. | ||
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 13 2016 07:09 icystorage wrote: I was confused why Kuro let phx through. MC couldnt initiate because of the sunray Do you really want to ban Phoenix + Void phase 1 though? They correctly figured out that out of the two void is the thing that gives them more troubles and they banned it. They just didn't go all the way to ban both. That might have been the thing to do. The aghs chrono into egg into healing ward / sunray was just too much for them to handle and they thought they could do that if they take just the chrono out of the equation. Obviously wasn't the case. But yeah I'm also not a fan of keeping the DK vs jugg in the later games. Fata's DK is massive and he's a god on it but we saw that it's just not working vs jugg for whatever the reason may be. On June 13 2016 17:08 BasalGanglia wrote: [...] (This is also a reason why I don't really like the format where one team in the grand final has to first play bo3 while the other team can just rest and observe). Not to take anything away from OG, they were the better team this time. I think that's the compromise tournaments made over fans complaining about the earlier WB-advantage. It used to be that the series started 1-0 for the one comming from the winners bracket as a "bonus". Or something similar to that. Fans really didn't like it and now we have this. And between the two I'd say we're better off the way it's now | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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