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On November 08 2012 09:58 SeraKuDA wrote:
I think fungal is fine, and infested terrans are the problem. They should try doubling the energy cost and see how that works out. It seems that there are just way too many available at all times, literally doubling the zerg army at times.
you and I both know that fungal could use some changes as well. It's like a super version of ensnare from bw, but far far better. The root portion or the damage portion could be changed and it would still be an effective and useful spell while at the same time reducing the current effectiveness of it. I do agree with the infested terrans being too cheap an energy cost though. I mean heck, the auto turret is twice as much energy for a unit that doesn't move but has more health.
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Has it ever been discussed changing fungal growth to only lock down bio units? (ie. fungal hurts all unittypes as now, but only locks down biological stuff!)
It would mean:
TvZ: Vikings can be microed late game against blords and corruptors,
ZvZ; Mutalisk being bio is still locked down (ie. it won't become a muta-fest again).
PvZ: This is where it gets problematic, since infestors are required to stop several midgame allins, but overall nerfing fungal might allow strengthening another unit (hydra) so zergs can fend off protoss allins midgame without sentry lockdown / autodeath.
Atleast to me it seems like an interesting way to go with it.
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infesters cant fungal air.
Done!!
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On November 08 2012 09:58 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:56 Probe1 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly? Infestor has become the bunker of SC2. The majority want it changed and think it's bad unit design. Blizzard isn't listening closely enough. This is one apprehensive step after nearly a year of stale and widely complained about late game. Not very awesome. If I'm late to work and my boss describes it as "awesome" I'd think my resume needs updating. Oddly enough most of those bunker changes became pointless the moment larger maps became the norm.
That was something else Blizzard had to be dragged kicking in screaming to 
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On November 08 2012 10:13 Imzoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:28 forsooth wrote:
Thank goodness they waited to see how the community would respond to thors without energy, or snipe, or blue flame... So true, blizzard like to persecute terrans. When it's a possible Zerg nerf we have to make MASS tests and wait SO LONG time to MAYBE have some thing.
Like I said, I still strongly believe its because DK who is in charge of balance is a zerg. I remember watching a stream where Catz, Todd and some other pros were discussing HOTS balance. It was funny how even when they were talking about general balance, they were defending their own races' "over powered" units and "under powered" units. They couldn't agree at all.
Seen that again and again in balance discussions from Idra, Korean pros etc.. with people defending their own races. Sure DK has to think of overall balance but his view is probably colored by his own gameplay. I'm sure he's a good Terran and Toss player but Zerg is definitely his go-to-race.
Oddly enough, in the case of the Infestors, its the rare situation where even Zerg pros say Infestor is pretty OP right now.
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On November 08 2012 10:19 Tabbris wrote:
infesters cant fungal air.
Done!!
You just killed ZvZ. Mutalisk are very OP without fungal and mutalisk vs mutalisk very volatile.
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Canada11607 Posts
Well it's a decent idea. If only there weren't so many spells that lock down micro from the other side (and now there's a new slow). Not that these abilities is necessarily bad. Just how endemic these spells are and how fast and how consistently large portions of the army can get rooted to one spot or cut off with FF's.
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On November 08 2012 10:20 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:58 Adreme wrote:On November 08 2012 09:56 Probe1 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly? Infestor has become the bunker of SC2. The majority want it changed and think it's bad unit design. Blizzard isn't listening closely enough. This is one apprehensive step after nearly a year of stale and widely complained about late game. Not very awesome. If I'm late to work and my boss describes it as "awesome" I'd think my resume needs updating. Oddly enough most of those bunker changes became pointless the moment larger maps became the norm. That was something else Blizzard had to be dragged kicking in screaming to Are you seriously implying these passive nr30 minute abominations are a marked improvement over lost temple? There both terrible, just different ways. One makes you bash your head against the wall, the other you pass out from boredom.
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I'm happy there looking at the infestor, obviously this isnt new information but it needs to be restated because so many balance whiners are far too hasty in calling for changes. It would be irresponsible for blizzard to be anything but cautious. Especially with tight resources.
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Marine - base damage: 6
Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1
Infested Terran - supply: 0
Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25
Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans.
For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy.
If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food.
If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 288 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities.
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@whatevername
Yeah. I am. I played BW, WoL beta and WoL since launch night. I've played on the original lost temple when it was bloody new, I've played on SC2s shattered temple well over 500 times as all races and I've played every tournament/ladder version of it.
Shattered was a terrible, imbalanced map that instead of forcing the players to think, it forced them to play a certain way. The legacy of Shattered Temple will be "Well it wasn't as bad as desert oasis and at least they patched it 5 or 6 times so they recognized how bad their original idea was".
Now I have a question for you. Do you think that it is somehow a coincidence that all of popular ladder/tournament maps are community created? Or would you agree that there's an obvious correlation that Blizzard isn't top notch map designers.
I see infestor as the exact same deal. They need to get rid of root but they need even more to wake up to the community faster. It's currently taking them way too long to decide something is wrong and I am worried for the future of the game I very much love to play. (Although currently truth be told, it's more of a love hate thing)
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On November 08 2012 10:02 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:00 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:58 TimENT wrote:On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. Infestors rape ghosts and high templar because of 1+ broodlords behind. Then commit your army/stalkers/vikings/whatever to bring the infestors forward, Snipe/feedback, and remax before broods can push on, altho I doubt most zerg will push with just brood/corruptor if they lose most of their infestor support and will remax with lings. - Yes this is situational but it is just a suggestion. We can play this little hypothetical bullshit game all day, but infestors will just fungal those that jump forward, pull back, broodlords attack, another fungal. Plus 20 trillion, literally 20 trillion, infested terrans. This isn't even close to being about balance. This is god awful unit design.
I don't think I've seen literally 20 trillion infested terrans. 576 would be impressive to see at once, but 20 trillion would break the game. I mean... literally
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There is clearly an infestor BL problem in ZvP, but I would hold off on ZvT. Why aren't Terrans using ghosts? Remember before ghost snipe was discovered, people were telling Terrans to use ghosts for ages but they never did? How fucking obvious was it that ghost snipe would work well? You're telling me it was hard to figure that out? LOL given this history of the potential for new strategies to develop, we should hold off on calling ZvT imbalanced until Terrans have tried to work ghosts back in for EMP purposes.
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On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote:
Marine - base damage: 6
Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1
Infested Terran - supply: 0
Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25
Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans.
For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy.
If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food.
If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities.
Check your math, 8 x 36 = 288.
On Topic: Infested terrans have too high stats for their energy cost, fungal is too simple to make effective. Corruptors shut down the only cost-effective response to broodlords; air units. The combination of larvae inject and broodlord/infestor/corruptor is beyond rediculous late game.
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On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote:
Marine - base damage: 6
Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1
Infested Terran - supply: 0
Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25
Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans.
For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy.
If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food.
If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities.
Your math is a bit odd. 36 x 8 = 288 not 576. But your point is valid. Infestors are insanely cost-efficient.
Note also that while the broodlords rain damage, the infestor terran eggs are also huge dps sinks and affect pathing.
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I feel minor adjustments need to be made on the infestor.. what really needs to be fixed is the ability of a toss to shut it down... feedbacks should be aoe or someother new caster to be able to shut them down... the reason why tvz is such a fair matchup is because the ghost comes into play were toss doesn't have that option
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On November 08 2012 10:38 openbox1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote:
Marine - base damage: 6
Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1
Infested Terran - supply: 0
Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25
Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans.
For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy.
If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food.
If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities. Your math is a bit odd. 36 x 8 = 288 not 576. But your point is valid. Infestors are insanely cost-efficient. Note also that while the broodlords rain damage, the infestor terran eggs are also huge dps sinks and affect pathing.
72 . 8 - 576. WHOOPS.
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It took them a weekend of MVP raping foreign zergs to cancel raven buffs, and it was on the 2 only maps where it was viable, maps that aren't used anymore because they were terrible. The "wait and see if the community finds an answer" approach is always used for zerg when at the same time they over react to everything else and patch terran after an MLG or an IEM >< Way to kill your own game blizzard.
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Well, infested terrans should get a nerf in terms of cost. IT aren't the problem, it's literally just fungal. It's stupid that the infestor fills up all the holes in zergs design. It would be nice to have some variety.
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yes, HT needs to somehow be able to counter infestor, feedback is shorter range than fungal though, and if they buff feedback range that would mess with EMP too...
On November 08 2012 10:07 openbox1 wrote:Kydarian Amulet was removed because it provided Toss to convert gas directly to damage. Well.... Guess what, Zerg can cast fungal immediately after spawn... Isn't that gas directly to damage? Lets not talk about 8 marines per 2 supply or that infestor eggs soak up insane amounts of damage. I guess a big factor is that David Kim is a Zerg. See how quick Ghost were nerfed because they were good vs everything bio. After one or two tournaments when snipes became the go-to in the late game vs Zerg, Bliz was nono and the poor ghost got nerfed the heck out of it. No mass ghost late game. Isn't it strange they didn't say lets wait and see. Maybe Zerg can figure out a different way to take down mass ghost?  Obviously the infestor is different. No its completely fine in its role as taking up 60-80 supply of a late game army. That's not too many. 20-35 infestors running around, just chilling. No Roaches, no hydras. Just a few lings, some gglords and corruptors and mass mass infestors. Not impressed by the sheer double standard.
Where did david or some blizz say he mains zerg? They all play random.
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This is the problem blizz faces. Although i agree that the infestor has seen too much usage, what mr. browder said is correct. Its the meta. Remember before terrans thought of a fast third OC that they had to pressure a zerg or lose? They realized that an extra base of mules was much better than a failed 2 rax. Remember when marine was OP? Remember when colossus was OP? Remember when chargelots were OP? (this one has been fixed in HOTS) The problem is that they don't know if players can find a solution to the infestor or not. We will never know if the meta will change if we nerf it or buff it. The problem is that this is a strategy game, and although infestors are a bit imba, we can't just call them imba and can them. It is hard to draw a line between balance and strategy, and this is exemplified by the examples mentioned earlier.
I think they should give the nerf a try, but leave it in PTR for a long while, and if players like it, they put it in. If peole find a solution without having to nerf, they dont have to put the nerf in. I dont want the infestor to be trashed like the ghost was. I quit terran because of the ghost nerf and because i was a frustrated noob who couldnt play ZvP after the ghost nerf.
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EPT
