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On November 08 2012 10:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:yes, HT needs to somehow be able to counter infestor, feedback is shorter range than fungal though, and if they buff feedback range that would mess with EMP too... Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:07 openbox1 wrote:Kydarian Amulet was removed because it provided Toss to convert gas directly to damage. Well.... Guess what, Zerg can cast fungal immediately after spawn... Isn't that gas directly to damage? Lets not talk about 8 marines per 2 supply or that infestor eggs soak up insane amounts of damage. I guess a big factor is that David Kim is a Zerg. See how quick Ghost were nerfed because they were good vs everything bio. After one or two tournaments when snipes became the go-to in the late game vs Zerg, Bliz was nono and the poor ghost got nerfed the heck out of it. No mass ghost late game. Isn't it strange they didn't say lets wait and see. Maybe Zerg can figure out a different way to take down mass ghost?  Obviously the infestor is different. No its completely fine in its role as taking up 60-80 supply of a late game army. That's not too many. 20-35 infestors running around, just chilling. No Roaches, no hydras. Just a few lings, some gglords and corruptors and mass mass infestors. Not impressed by the sheer double standard. Where did david or some blizz say he mains zerg? They all play random.
You guys are looking at this wrong... its a balance TEAM they have... its not just one guy.. they are looking at multiple angles not non bias ones... they test all updates before they release... obviously hes not being a bias fuck and hes trying to make the game as good as possible for everyone
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote:
The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields.
FF is strong in early and mid game for Protoss to defense and offense, but in late game it isn't a main problem. However FG is just ridiculous from mid to lategame, and Zerg in early game with queen buff is so retarded.
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Blizzard should fking adress the root and how it ruin micro in a supposed serious RTS game.
The imbalance is just another topic, is easy to weaken the unit, but the root is the issue that they are no talking about. And that disturb me a lot.
Edit.: Another point that disturb me is how long take the Blizz development team to see stuff.
Take the Warhound for example. EVERY master player and above, knew that the unit was hilariously op after reading the stats. EVERY. But they push the unit further. And I'm not even talking about how silly the design was.
Just look how the Infestor work. How good it is vs any army, vs any harass, at any point of the game, as a support unit, main ball, roam ball/map control, cloack harass, anything.
I really expect from a development team to be ahead of events. They are worryingly behind all the time in almost everything. It sounds rough, but is the hard truth.
On the other side, is somewhat remarkable how they keep trying despite how behind and how long they take to see what a lot of players see.
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if they nerf infestors i demand a nerf of sentries force fields. demand it....
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On November 08 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote:
It took them a weekend of MVP raping foreign zergs to cancel raven buffs, and it was on the 2 only maps where it was viable, maps that aren't used anymore because they were terrible. The "wait and see if the community finds an answer" approach is always used for zerg when at the same time they over react to everything else and patch terran after an MLG or an IEM >< Way to kill your own game blizzard.
Well everyone should blame MVP cuz the guy just handily fuck the race over with his sheer skill. Both ghost and raven.
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finally a statement! oh wait... it didn't actually SAY ANYTHING.
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I think everyone realizes the Infestor is a bit too good. Maybe take a half a second tick off of fungal and/or tone down the Infested Terrans a bit.
It's quite disappointing to see Blizzard not reacting with incremental changes that are obviously warranted.
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Everyone knew infestors were strong for well over a year. People started to realize how broken they were once maps stopped being Steppes of War-ish... it's kinda disappointing they aren't even considering a tweak.
Either way, I really hope this is Blizzard's new balance approach for ALL races, cause so far they seem to be using early SC2 history as a basis for how they nerf/buff.
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On November 08 2012 09:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:33 Soda wrote:
I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff. nice observation, i hated seeing pro zergs just use 1 control group for their whole army, so that their infestors walk into the fight and sit there doing nothing <_> (who remembers Losira vs sC on Terminus haha)
So by having infestors in a separate control group is already a "vast improvement" for the zerg players. Ask terrans how many control groups they need to have in order to survive and not "screw up badly and lost in just one major fight"
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On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote:
Marine - base damage: 6
Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1
Infested Terran - supply: 0
Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25
Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans.
For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy.
If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food.
If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 288 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities.
Infested terran cost: 25 energy
Marine cost: Free
Joking aside, sheer numbers wont prove an imbalance. Remember that most of the eggs will die anyway, and that one can simple run away from them. They also get autokilled by AoE.
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Please just do it david kim...make 1 good decision and you will be forgiven for so many other horrible nerfs that you have done in the past.
Actually no i can't forgive him for what he did to the ghost...but still it would be nice to see a change on the 1 unit that everyone knows is completely single handedly winning zerg games.
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What bothers me with the whole race balance is that Zergs have (for the most part) a useless unit in hydralisks and one of the biggest complaints people have of infestors are that they do everything well (including anti-air).
A hydra buff (i.e. speed=lair, range=hive) coupled with a fungal nerf to air (maybe just keep it as a slow) or something along the lines of that, seems so obvious a solution.
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I only wish we saw more consistency with balance changes big or small, the ghost was never as widely used as the infestor is now but it was changed in a few months of being 'op'.
I would love to see a balance map and they can at least be trying things out.
Personally I think 3 supply infestor would be the simplest nerf
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Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
8 is the highest you can see, other than a few timing pushes (Huk did a few in pvz a while ago)
20 sentries? lol
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Altough the infestor might be slightly too good, but its a very very fine line before you completely screw over zerg which rely on infestors to survive in all matchups
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It is weird that Blizzard doesn't see why infestors are a problem now eventhough the unit itself hasn't change.
Let's look at TvZ, before for Queen patch, zerg would need to build spines, roaches, etc to deal with hellions. Now, good zerg which good ling control (Life, Leenock, etc) can defend pretty much with pure lings. This means their army a lot more mobile and they have better creep spread which allows them to expand quicker getting more gases. So they can a lot of times just tech straight to infestors from lings. If they see more aggressive build from terran (which causes terran to have lower econ), they can build units to defend but their eco advantage is still there.
It is like if terran could tech from marines/medivacs straight to BCs vs toss. I don't think the protoss would have an answer to BCs (besides vortex if terran doesn't split like in the Mvp Squirtle game). But that transition just isn't possible.
All in all, the transition is just a bit too easy to pull off now (although I do think the Queen changes were needed in the early game since zergs were dying to terran aggression too much). Since I do think the early/mid game is in a good spot, I think Blizzard should look into some late game improvements for the other races to deal with infestors/BLs.
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On November 08 2012 10:59 NonameAI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote:
Marine - base damage: 6
Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1
Infested Terran - supply: 0
Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25
Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans.
For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy.
If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food.
If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 288 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities. Infested terran cost: 25 energy Marine cost: Free Joking aside, sheer numbers wont prove an imbalance. Remember that most of the eggs will die anyway, and that one can simple run away from them. They also get autokilled by AoE.
While I agree with your assessment that sheer numbers won't prove imbalance, I have noticed a disturbing lategame strategy popping up as of late. Haven't really seen it when the Zerg wasn't already ahead though, but still it's pretty weird.
Basically, you go pure infestor. Then, you lob dozens and dozens of infested terrans at the opponent. By the time the terran/protoss has finished mopping them up, you have the energy for another wave of a couple dozen infested terrans. Eventually the terran/protoss just dies because the repeated attacks force him to turtle and try to defend himself against wave after wave of completely free units.
You should not be allowed to just mass one single unit and spam one single ability to win a game.
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On November 08 2012 09:29 malaan wrote:
It's just fungal growth that needs looking at... everything else is fine.
infested terran for 25 mana is a too strong
these infested terran have +1 dmg then the normal ones and are for free
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Zerg players keep talking about how they need the infestor to win. If that was the case, why was ZvT one of the most balanced matchup in late 2011, where muta/ling/bling was the dominant unit composition. Infestors aren't needed, they're just easier to use.
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EPT
