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On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk)
The guy did provide examples where pros did actually use 15-20 infestors in other posts. That being said, 15-20 sentries are not common at all and is nothing like having 15-20 infestors.
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
Wow did you just compare a unit that kills everything to Sentries with torch lights?
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On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk)
I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too?  I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius.
Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game.
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On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game.
I remember there was a joke that KeSPA Protosses used to make a ton of Sentries, but that was when they were still very inexperienced with the game. I think they now know better.
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On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game.
Well, it really depends what is meant be 'uncommon'. Is < 1%,<10%, <20%? Not worth it to argue semantics.
As many people have posted, it is the flexibility of the infestors which is the big issue. For mass sentries, you can hard counter with burrow, drops. But even if you know the zerg is massing infestors, there isn't really a unit/comp you can make which hardcounters it.
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On November 08 2012 12:37 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. I remember there was a joke that KeSPA Protosses used to make a ton of Sentries, but that was when they were still very inexperienced with the game. I think they now know better.
Bisu??
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On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius.
The Infestor clearly has much more utility throughout the entire course of a game than the Sentry. Infestors are commonly used as the basis for Zerg's late game army. Show me the games where Sentries continue to play a critical role into the late game and constitute the backbone of Protoss' composition. Comparing the Infestor the to Sentry or just about any other unit at this point is a bit silly.
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On November 08 2012 12:42 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. The Infestor clearly has much more utility throughout the entire course of a game than the Sentry. Infestors are commonly used as the basis for Zerg's late game army. Show me the games where Sentries continue to play a critical role into the late game and constitute the backbone of Protoss' composition. Comparing the Infestor the to Sentry or just about any other unit at this point is a bit silly.
I think the prenerf ghosts were probably the closest things we had that match up to the utility of the infestor. Good in small number (6-8) in the mid game due to AoE (EMP). Can overwhelm in the late game if massed with snipe.
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On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game.
The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another support unit being massed to great success.
Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL.
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On November 08 2012 11:34 Plexa wrote:Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ 
Make EMP remove all energy again instead of only 100 and EMP would be worth it. It blows ass that you need to hit an infestor twice just to remove all its energy (that and you will only hit 1-2 out of 15 with those 2 emps).
I would be fine if you kept fungal the way it is if you gave infestors a huge speed nerf. They are ridiculously fast. If you won't nerf speed you need to significantly nerf fungal and ITs and/or bring back full energy removal on EMP (from a TVZ perspective).
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Since when have Zergs been massing infestors only recently...?
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL.
It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation.
Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:34 Plexa wrote:Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ Make EMP remove all energy again instead of only 100 and EMP would be worth it. It blows ass that you need to hit an infestor twice just to remove all its energy (that and you will only hit 1-2 out of 15 with those 2 emps). I would be fine if you kept fungal the way it is if you gave infestors a huge speed nerf. They are ridiculously fast. If you won't nerf speed you need to significantly nerf fungal and ITs and/or bring back full energy removal on EMP (from a TVZ perspective).
No, I'm loathe to try and rebalance units in a way that would affect the other matchups. I think part of the issue is the infestors being pretty large, make the unit model small so EMP is at least somewhat viable.
To my earlier point though, this may mean that Collosus fire will fry infestors too easily, not sure how their targetting actually works
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Disregarding balance completely, I think the infestor would be a much more interesting unit if fungal were simply a projectile spell e.g. like the BW Science Vessel's EMP. Giving players a chance to micro against it would create more excitement and strategic options; which, it's worth mentioning, most people hate fungal because it is 100% unavoidable unless you predict where your opponent will cast it. This also makes chain fungal-ing more strategic.
It might be easier to balance if there were more options in dealing with it. Making fungal a projectile would accomplish this too.
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I don't think there aren't counters to infestors per se, but certainly they are far easier to use than they are to play against. By an incredible margin.
They are a big reason why zerg is overrepresented in foreign proscenes, as much as terran being hard to use is why there are very few notable foreign terrans.
The challenge for Blizzard is do you balance for everyone, or for Korea where zergs are still doing really good, but the higher player skill ceiling makes terran and protoss much more viable. Also Korea doesn't have stability at the top amongst races - protoss dominating WCS Korea a couple months ago and now have had two seasons of GSL where they have underperformed.
Of course the problem of (repeat) fungals being by far the most anti-hype ability in the game has nothing to do with balance and probably warrants some sort of tweak based on that alone.
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On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of.
Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy.
I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin".
That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords.
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What I feel would be good would be to add some micro to fungal. Maybe a fungal bomb will be seen and explodes in 1 sec leaving fungal spores and units in the area will get fungalled as it is now. It doesn't make sense that storm can be evaded but not fungal and yet you will take the full damage once it hits.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:58 Elwar wrote:
I don't think there aren't counters to infestors per se, but certainly they are far easier to use than they are to play against. By an incredible margin.
They are a big reason why zerg is overrepresented in foreign proscenes, as much as terran being hard to use is why they're are very few notable foreign terrans.
The challenge for Blizzard is do you balance for everyone, or for Korea where zergs are still doing really good, but the higher player skill ceiling makes terran and protoss much more viable. Also Korea doesn't have stability at the top amongst races - protoss dominating WCS Korea a couple months ago and now have had two seasons of GSL where they have underperformed.
Of course the problem of (repeat) fungals being by far the most anti-hype ability in the game has nothing to do with balance and probably warrants some sort of tweak based on that alone.
The Korean Zergs were actually doing pretty well, and still are with non-infestor centric play when they pull it out. Wasn't Korean TvZ in the month before the Queen buff 51-49% as well?
I just find it somewhat concerning that Terrans get nerfed quite a lot based on games in the GSL/Blizzcon and in general based upon playstyles that only the top Korean players can reliably pulled off. Yet from an outsider looking in the same rationale isn't really being applied to Zergs when they do well.
I play Protoss by the way, I'm not some aggravated Terran player but it just seems curious.
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EPT
