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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that
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On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that
It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them.
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On November 08 2012 11:20 IAmMajiC wrote:
Zerg players keep talking about how they need the infestor to win. If that was the case, why was ZvT one of the most balanced matchup in late 2011, where muta/ling/bling was the dominant unit composition. Infestors aren't needed, they're just easier to use.
Also keep in mind that Terrans have gotten a lot better at countering muta/ling/bane compared to before. Marine splitting micro has improved tremendously among most Terran pros in particular, and many Terrans have gotten better at deflecting Muta harass.
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On November 08 2012 11:18 perser84 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:29 malaan wrote:
It's just fungal growth that needs looking at... everything else is fine. infested terran for 25 mana is a too strong these infested terran have +1 dmg then the normal ones and are for free
Not to mention the strategy of throwing bazillions of IT eggs on the tanks and marines lines and the splashed tank shots will injured the marines and tanks themselves. Seriously infestors are just too versatile.
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On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them.
There's ALWAYS a GSL going on. Would you rather they do it during the semi-finals or something?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ 
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On November 08 2012 09:28 forsooth wrote:
Thank goodness they waited to see how the community would respond to thors without energy, or snipe, or blue flame...
They're doing it now, and they said they were going to start doing it now several months back just after the queen patch. Better some time than never.
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On November 08 2012 11:28 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:20 IAmMajiC wrote:
Zerg players keep talking about how they need the infestor to win. If that was the case, why was ZvT one of the most balanced matchup in late 2011, where muta/ling/bling was the dominant unit composition. Infestors aren't needed, they're just easier to use. Also keep in mind that Terrans have gotten a lot better at countering muta/ling/bane compared to before. Marine splitting micro has improved tremendously among most Terran pros in particular, and many Terrans have gotten better at deflecting Muta harass.
There are meta game shifts. I would say that in the late 2011 and early 2012, terrans got a bit too good at defending vs ling/bane/muta (unless you are DRG). But now, I think zerg are going much more ling heavy (or just for pure ling/muta) which seems to be much more effective. With proper control, they seem to be able to take out entrench terran armies. This is also probably due to the fact that terrans play a lot more eco now to counter the early 4th from zerg so they have less army when the ling/muta bust comes.
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On November 08 2012 11:34 Plexa wrote:Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ
It's not that terrans need to START using emp, terrans were using emp before snipe became useless. Eh, just wait for HoTS if you're a terran player imo, WoL is too goofed up to be fair. Every time they nerf or buff something it makes something else imbalanced.
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Their approach is understandable, but fungal really is bad by design. I have a few ideas as to why it's just now being recognized as overpowered:
a. micro has developed to the point where not being able to spread/flank is a serious disadvantage,
b. infested terrans have gradually gained acceptance as the primary source of tank/dps in battles,
c. games have gotten longer which means more energy, and infestors can unload max energy much faster than the other casters.
I think that if you removed fungal entirely and allowed the Infestor to neural parasite while burrowed, it would still be a damn good unit.
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How much do tournament results mean in balancing the game? IMO not as much as you think. From early, mid to late game every race has some possibility of overwhelming the others that isn't attributed to the players being clever or innovative...but simply bad design.
Coming from a FG background. In fighting games where characters are almost never balanced....I hear often when the community believes a character to be overly overpowered, "well he isn't winning every tournament." Yet the character might have an infinite or an overpowered set of moves.
Balance has to do with the details, not the win %. In BW they're were moments were Terrans dominated, then zergs dominated, then protoss. But people didn't complain about imbalances, because the answers where in the details. You never saw a build that didn't have a fair response from the opposing race. We attributed these moments of specific race dominance to maps, meta game shifts and most importantly skill.
SC2 is just an unbalanced game. From the ground up it has weak fundamentals in design. As a protoss, I will admit that warpgates are silly for early game tech...force fields are absurd. To keep these gimmicks in the game, blizzard made gateway units terrible. That's why the race operates on FF timing attacks and colossus death balls. A lot of the nerfs and buffs to the race, are simply Blizzards pathetic attempt to force a terrible design (warp gates) into the game. And what are their reasons for doing this? Warpgates are unique from the other races.
It's blatantly obvious the infestor is too strong for a spellcaster. It can create an army of marines with no cost. It can shut down pretty much all Air tech, because of fungals+inf Marines. It can support any army as well, as become the army.
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On November 08 2012 11:30 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. There's ALWAYS a GSL going on. Would you rather they do it during the semi-finals or something?
They just want Zergs to win a few more major tournaments before they do something about the infestors. Proof?
David Kim's interview, when asked about Zerg dominating in WOL. He replied:
"Yes, we are receiving tons of feedbacks regarding this. However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments."
It sounds like they want to pay back the Zerg that was having a "miserable" 2011. I am not buying that, Nestea has 3 GSL championships. DRG Life Fruitdealer are GSL champions. not to mention the recent MLG that was dominated by Leenock and Life. Not to mention Leenock also won a MLG before... and not to mention Stephano was also sweeping foreign tournament like nobody's business... The no.1 GM spot here in SEA server here is iMMafia (zerg). During the early days the no.1 spot was always Moonglade (zergy)... Sen is also dominating Taiwanese scene... the list goes on
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This is entirely a design issue as well. The Infestor fills every role a Zerg needs. Aoe damage, anti air, harassment, anti harassment. Rather than being overpowered, I think it's over useful.
This ^
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I don't think Infestor's are the problem in general, yeah they're too cost efficient spawning free units but when you see 6 queens with full energy mass transfusing them rendering them invincible that's a problem.
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk)
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On November 08 2012 11:34 Plexa wrote:Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ
I would love for Blizzard to try one of their balance maps like before, with one minor change: reducing Infestor size. That would make EMP a lot more effective, just like it is against clumped up HTs.
Course, this doesn't really address the infestor issues in PvZ at all
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Whats boring is that it is a caster and all the spells are just different ways to do direct damage.
If you look at the coolest casters they all have one kinda-annoying skill and then one kill everything skill.
BW ghost, defiler, wc3 shaman, witch doctor, priest, etc. They are focused on utility, not dealing direct damage.
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I'm not sure how he can say that Infestors have been seeing much more play recently. Many pros and even many casuals have been using Infestors as their STAPLE unit for over a year. For example, look at destiny. He used Infestors for the longest time, even after blizzard nerfed neural.
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I support waiting for a metagame shift, but the problem exists nearly a year now, Blizzard waited long enough, they need to do something!!! Make FG to slow instead of snare. Could bring more exciting for watching. because players could still micro their units a bit!
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On November 08 2012 12:11 seaofsaturn wrote:
Whats boring is that it is a caster and all the spells are just different ways to do direct damage.
If you look at the coolest casters they all have one kinda-annoying skill and then one kill everything skill.
BW ghost, defiler, wc3 shaman, witch doctor, priest, etc. They are focused on utility, not dealing direct damage.
No one uses BW ghosts. Defilers did TONS of damage...
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EPT
