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On November 08 2012 09:59 Kreb wrote:
I dont really get why the focus of the infestor-whine seem to be fungal. Fungal is fine if you ask me. People say its anti-micro, and while that holds some truth i think fungal still creates very interesting scenarios vs terran bio and maybe also to a lesser extent vs blink stalkers and vs roaches in roach/infestor battles.
The only problem I see with the infestor is that its too versatile, and thereby pretty much impossible to overmake. If a T makes 100 marines he'll lose to colossi or fungal/banelings. If a Z makes 50 roaches he'll lose to immortals, marauders and tanks. Etc. The problem is Infestors can both be the support and the core part of your army. Or, the infestors arent the core, the infested Terrans are. ITs are the damage soakers, the anti air (vs spread anti air at least, fungal vs clumped), high damage dealers and also shield the important units (infestors + BLs) from being attacked. And you cant make too many of them. If you have 30 infestors, adding another 5 will always be useful because it means more ITs.
And thats the problem. To me, a nerf to Infested Terrans seems to be much more reasonable than fungal. Fungal should still have its uses, but you cant make 30 infestors for the purpose of fungaling. And while its fine infestors can use up spare energy to something useful (ravens have turrets, ghosts snipe, templars become archons when they've used their energy) the infested terrans are just too good of an energy dump. Making them cost more energy and/or deal less dmg and/or die faster and/or something else is to me the best step to put infestors back where they should be: a useful support spell caster unit. Not a core army unit.
This this!!!
There are a lot of times where the zerg has a 300 pop army. I don't get it why the zerg can have so many army supply. Why a free unit is better than his counter part? Why is IT better than a marine? Why they are affected by upgrades?
I really don't get it, simply why the IT exists, why zerg is allowed to go in the games without antiair, you never see hydras because they cost money and are slow.
To me nerf the infested terran to not be able to be upgraded, and nerf the IT to be inferior in stats to a marine or make the spell cost double, seriously 25 energy?
Now you don't need to kill the zerg army twice, but three or four times, for me that is the problem, zerg cannot be cost efficient (well not THAT cost efficient), or else all the mecanism to produce faster and have more bases are simply OP.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too?  I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords.
The timings I see Rain hit are really, really tight 3 base timings,often at 150/160 supply and they work because Zerg are cutting other units and transitioning to Broods/spines. If Zerg weren't doing that the timings wouldn't be working. Zerg have other ways to play that are being discarded in favour of getting to their hive army quicker and quicker, not so much in vP but definitely in vT.
I don't like Immortal/sentry myself so don't think that I do. It should be an all-in that is strong unscouted, but it's taking game after game even when the Zerg knows it coming. When I lose on ladder to a Zerg who says that 'well your 2 base timings are OP, do that noob' it's disheartening, we'd like to be able to win in straight-up ways.
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Why not change Fungal Growth so that instead of freezing your units, it reduces them to 25% movement speed instead? That way units caught in a Fungal have a tiny chance of escaping or spreading out before another one catches them.
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote:
The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields.
It IS overpowered and stupid to watch due to its stupid lockdown mechanic. In addition to this the Infestor has a "free unit" for almost no energy and Infested Terrans can be clumped up far more tightly than the Ravens autoturret and has wayyy more dps that way. Thus there are two super awesome spells on one caster which can deal with about everything.
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On November 08 2012 13:08 Zzoram wrote:
Why not change Fungal Growth so that instead of freezing your units, it reduces them to 25% movement speed instead? That way units caught in a Fungal have a tiny chance of escaping or spreading out before another one catches them.
why not just make it like storm?
That would be interesting to try. Why remove unit speed at all?
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Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs??
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On November 08 2012 13:12 MasterCynical wrote:
Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs??
KA was way more broken than fungal is lol. Protoss weren't even good enough to use it back then. Can you imagine seeing it today? People didn't even open templar back then as often as they do now. You litteraly couldn't attack a protoss with KA.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:12 MasterCynical wrote:
Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs??
Because even with KA in the game Protoss play wasn't nearly as refined as it is now, they weren't dominating games with it, but the potential was there. Protoss nowadays with KA would absolute MURDER Terrans in PvT so, even if it was a change that wasn't all-that merited at the time, long-term it has looked the right one.
Ghost one is still a mystery to me, maybe it's nostalgia but damn, that was cool to watch, and I don't recall anybody but MVP really making it a hallmark of their TvZ
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On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords.
Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:16 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords. Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL.
Exactly, Oz vs Leenock at MLG was one of the best PvZ's I've seen lately because Leenock showed that Zergs can actually play aggressively in the midgame. His Symbol-style drop play and multipronged aggression on Antiga was beautiful to watch.
It wasn't that long ago that Stephano was crushing every Protoss with maxing out on Roaches superfast. Protoss go into super quick immortal pumpage to defend this so why don't Zergs metagame more often with big Mutalisk plays, to take one example?
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On November 08 2012 13:10 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:08 Zzoram wrote:
Why not change Fungal Growth so that instead of freezing your units, it reduces them to 25% movement speed instead? That way units caught in a Fungal have a tiny chance of escaping or spreading out before another one catches them. why not just make it like storm? That would be interesting to try. Why remove unit speed at all?
Although I think Zerg needs at least some kind of crowd control spell or else their units get kited indefinitely. I think separating the damage and rooting aspects of Fungal into at least two different spells would be a good start rather than just completely focusing on one aspect.
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The only change in the infestor is people finally figured out that you don't have to suicide them by keeping them in your 1 control group. People actually take care of them and now they are showing how good they are.
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On November 08 2012 13:16 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords. Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL.
You really think a player like DRG, who has time and time again expressed his dislike of Broodlord/Infestor for being too slow and clumsy and not suiting his style, who is one of the best multitaskers in the game with very high APM, chooses to tech BL because he wants to?
Zerg has no other option, every other army composition just melts to the Toss deathball once it reaches critical mass. Before, many Korean Zergs who don't like BL/Infestor used to play Muta/Ling, but it increasingly has become a liability, as Protoss players learned to defend better against it, and build a lot of cannons before moving out to make base-races less effective. Not to mention, the mere threat of that never used Phoenix upgrade is enough to make it a very dangerous proposition for the Zerg in the first place.
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On November 08 2012 13:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:12 MasterCynical wrote:
Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs?? Because even with KA in the game Protoss play wasn't nearly as refined as it is now, they weren't dominating games with it, but the potential was there. Protoss nowadays with KA would absolute MURDER Terrans in PvT so, even if it was a change that wasn't all-that merited at the time, long-term it has looked the right one. Ghost one is still a mystery to me, maybe it's nostalgia but damn, that was cool to watch, and I don't recall anybody but MVP really making it a hallmark of their TvZ
Yeah, its obvious that the potential was there, but they nipped it right in the bud. It was like a gamble, if it turns out that Terrans couldn't deal with it, then they made they right change.
Its just so frustrating how they are being so passive on Infestors. Its not only a potential balance issue but also a "making games boring for the spectator" issue. Previous changes they made only had a potential balance issue and they took action almost instantly compared to how they're dealing with the Infestor.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:25 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:16 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords. Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL. You really think a player like DRG, who has time and time again expressed his dislike of Broodlord/Infestor for being too slow and clumsy and not suiting his style, who is one of the best multitaskers in the game with very high APM, chooses to tech BL because he wants to? Zerg has no other option, every other army composition just melts to the Toss deathball once it reaches critical mass. Before, many Korean Zergs who don't like BL/Infestor used to play Muta/Ling, but it increasingly has become a liability, as Protoss players learned to defend better against it, and build a lot of cannons before moving out to make base-races less effective. Not to mention, the mere threat of that never used Phoenix upgrade is enough to make it a very dangerous proposition for the Zerg in the first place.
DRG still does a lot more in early and midgame aggression than many of the other Zergs we're seeing, and he's shown some good mutaling chops vP in the past as well. It's not the ONLY way to play but BL/Infestor play is of course useful to have in the arsenal.
However less talented Zergs can use it as a crutch and beat better players by playing that style, over and over again. Anyway, regardless of this, HoTS should at least theoretically give Zergs other good lategame styles, so at the very least when that drops the Infestor shouldn't be as catch-all as it is currently
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There is a hatchery bug?..
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:27 MasterCynical wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 13:12 MasterCynical wrote:
Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs?? Because even with KA in the game Protoss play wasn't nearly as refined as it is now, they weren't dominating games with it, but the potential was there. Protoss nowadays with KA would absolute MURDER Terrans in PvT so, even if it was a change that wasn't all-that merited at the time, long-term it has looked the right one. Ghost one is still a mystery to me, maybe it's nostalgia but damn, that was cool to watch, and I don't recall anybody but MVP really making it a hallmark of their TvZ Yeah, its obvious that the potential was there, but they nipped it right in the bud. It was like a gamble, if it turns out that Terrans couldn't deal with it, then they made they right change. Its just so frustrating how they are being so passive on Infestors. Its not only a potential balance issue but also a "making games boring for the spectator" issue. Previous changes they made only had a potential balance issue and they took action almost instantly compared to how they're dealing with the Infestor.
Well we're seeing it now a lot in TvZ how the matchup has been really reduced in quality, both a consequence of how good infestors are in general, plus the increased freedom that the Queen buff gave them. Terran are having to play a lot greedier, which opens them up in the early game, Leenock's games today are a great example. Terran can still win games, of course they can but it's either through hyper-greed into a pre-brood timing, or often some kind of aggressive move like a 2 rax, into greed, into some pre-brood attempt at timing.
Previously I felt personally that the matchup was pretty damn good, with pretty standard, stable openers into similar midgames and the better player tended to win.
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote:
The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields.
Boom. This and concussive shells.
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The reason Blizz are so passive about infestors is that it's a complicated change.
So much of the zerg mid game defense and end game army pivots around infestors. Nerfing them would, without a doubt, make every zerg composition weaker partially because, as everyone correctly points out, getting infestors is ALWAYS a good choice.
Comparing sentry to infestor is stupid. Sentries are on a clock. After a certain point you've sunk 1500+ gas into the lowest dps unit in the game. You're just dead.
If someone can tell me what number of infestors is 'over making' that would be awesome. That would at least assist your claim that they aren't OP.
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On November 08 2012 13:36 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote:
The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Boom. This and concussive shells.
No it's pretty overpowered too
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EPT
