|
On November 08 2012 14:25 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:01 Xeris wrote:
It's pretty insane that he posts this now.
"The Infestor has not changed in months and it is now appears over powered in some games. What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor. We are going to discuss it, watch games and see. "
It's been overpowered for months. I know what will be overpowered next month... the infestor. The patch happened 3-4 months ago and Zerg is still stupidly strong. A spellcaster shouldn't be as versatile as the infestor is where your army composition is 50% of one spellcaster. I think the issue is that Blizzard have noted that they've not sat on certain strategies long enough and applied what can only be seen as a reactive hotfix before the pros and community at large can figure out the actual issue. Idra has said that by the time the reaper fix came in, zerg were pretty much able to deal with the issue. Reapers now untouched vs zerg. MVP mass sniped zerg in some single digit amount of games and it got nerfed. Ghosts now rarely seen. Thorzain beat immortals with strike canon and it got nerfed. No-one even remembers strike canons now. They probably have sat on this one too long, but honestly people have confused a lot of the complaints. Only 2 months ago people were blaming queens for the matchup, but now the complaints are about infestors. I don't think queens are the issue at all, it got solved. The infestor issue has definitely been around far longer, but has only come to light thanks to a combination of recent balance changes, metagame shifts and more experience with the unit. Still, some people are on what could be read between the lines which is that they might not be as invested in WoL with HotS working towards release. In addition with the sheer amount of tournaments coming at the end of the year, they also may be concerned with making a patch which dramatically shifts metagame at this stage else you end up with those few WCS qualifiers everyone likes to quote. The question is not "Is Infestor an issue?" or "Does Blizzard even realise?" but "Will they patch WoL? And if so, will it still be some time away?"
I pretty much agree with this. I feel Blizz will patch infestors, probably early December.
Their comments feel like they are buying time to do some internal testing on what the best solution is without breaking endgame zerg.
|
To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal.
"Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me...
|
I can definitely see why they're not in a hurry to change it. The reaper was only really present in TvZ, and saw no real use in early game TvP. TvT still has reapers a bit. Ghost snipe nerf was only a thing in TvZ; it saw use in TvT but it was only a few allins, and in TvP the +psionic meant it wasn't an issue.
Changing the infestor will change all 3 zerg matchups however you try to do it. Ghost/reaper only significantly changed 1. ZvP and ZvT both very commonly revolve around infestor based midgames, and lategame zerg pretty much always involves infestors. ZvZ will also be affected, and the matchup is already kind of volatile even with the stability of "everyone gets infestors at some point"
I don't know... I think I'd like to see the infestor changed and fungal changed to a snare but it'll be such a significant change to all the matchups with an expansion on the horizon. I don't really mind whether they change it or not in WoL, but I'd certainly like to see a change in HotS whatever happens.
|
From a zerg perspective, I really dislike the fact that infestor prevents micro from your opponent. I know this is not necessarily a balance thread but my point is even from a zerg point, I think the infestor (fungal) is not a good unit / spell by the way it works.
|
Zergs use Infestors every game because they have to. Zerg is boring as fuck and the devs totally dropped the ball on the race. I would bet that most Zergs would love to use more varied strats but they can't because they've been forced to rely on a few select units for every match up.
Banes suck without Infestor support (against a skilled enemy, they're awful against units they're meant to counter)
Roaches are average without Infestor support.
BLs are exposed and weak without Infestor support.
Infestors counter muta, blink stalker, bio, hellion, drops, banshee, VR, etc. etc.
Zergs make them because they have to.
The devs shouldn't have been so fucking stubborn and just given Zergs the Lurker. There's your anti-infantry solution and it doesn't counter air, it doesn't lock down an army and deny micro, it doesn't spawn free units, it just does it's job. The same job that Banes were supposed to do (and fail at) and Infestors have now been employed and tweaked to do too well.
|
I dont get it -.-......it been like this for month though. To claim that they want to wait and see how it plays out is kinda silly to me. I think it been around near 4-6 month already that infestor were considered really powerful. I suppose waiting and seeing how it plays out is the safer thing to do
On November 08 2012 14:47 Mjolnir wrote:
Zergs use Infestors every game because they have to. Zerg is boring as fuck and the devs totally dropped the ball on the race. I would bet that most Zergs would love to use more varied strats but they can't because they've been forced to rely on a few select units for every match up.
Banes suck without Infestor support (against a skilled enemy, they're awful against units they're meant to counter)
Roaches are average without Infestor support.
BLs are exposed and weak without Infestor support.
Infestors counter muta, blink stalker, bio, hellion, drops, banshee, VR, etc. etc.
Zergs make them because they have to.
The devs shouldn't have been so fucking stubborn and just given Zergs the Lurker. There's your anti-infantry solution and it doesn't counter air, it doesn't lock down an army and deny micro, it doesn't spawn free units, it just does it's job. The same job that Banes were supposed to do (and fail at) and Infestors have now been employed and tweaked to do too well.
I know people been seeing this alot but I dont believe it a justified answer. I mean if zerg are massing infestor because they HAVE too then that mean then it was fine for terran to mass ghost because they HAVE to too right? I mean technically they did HAVE too because as we can see, late game TvZ is not looking very promising after the ghost nerf. So to say that you HAVE too go mass infestor is the same as saying terran HAVE to go mass ghost too but that got nerf. So if mass ghost got nerf, then clearly mass infestor should be nerf too.
All I am saying is that if massing ghost is wrong, then massing infestor should also be wrong.
|
There's so many way to deal vs infestor that I can't count them, why people always wants blizz to nerf X things because they aren't whilling to try new things. Metagame is people being stupid and silly and following pros builds instead of thinking of what they could actually make to counter it.
|
Lol Mvp not trying to end the game...
|
On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote:
To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal.
"Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me...
Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp).
IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ...
|
SC2 is a video game, the point isn't to be frustrated but to have fun.
i.e. it's fun to try and chase infestors and templar with ghosts.... the point isn't to be unstoppable but to
be stoppable. SC2 needs more video gameiness.
|
all other zerg units are terrible, how can you not make a lot of infestors? do you want zergs to make a lot of mutas? hydras?
can't nerf infestors or they will have to compensate it drastically, like buffing all other units. better wait for HotS and see how it goes with the new units.
|
On November 08 2012 14:38 SgtCoDFish wrote:
I can definitely see why they're not in a hurry to change it. The reaper was only really present in TvZ, and saw no real use in early game TvP. TvT still has reapers a bit. Ghost snipe nerf was only a thing in TvZ; it saw use in TvT but it was only a few allins, and in TvP the +psionic meant it wasn't an issue.
Changing the infestor will change all 3 zerg matchups however you try to do it. Ghost/reaper only significantly changed 1. ZvP and ZvT both very commonly revolve around infestor based midgames, and lategame zerg pretty much always involves infestors. ZvZ will also be affected, and the matchup is already kind of volatile even with the stability of "everyone gets infestors at some point"
I don't know... I think I'd like to see the infestor changed and fungal changed to a snare but it'll be such a significant change to all the matchups with an expansion on the horizon. I don't really mind whether they change it or not in WoL, but I'd certainly like to see a change in HotS whatever happens.
That's the problem though... It's gotten to the point where the Infestor is the mainstay of the Zerg composition in EVERY MATCHUP. There's no situation where they are not advantageous and there's no reason to not make them every single game. They fill every role from AOE damage, snare, burst DPS, harassment, defense, is there anything else? I guess they can't fly or cliff walk, that's about it. Hell, if you care to research NP they can even mind control units...
The community has been crying over the Infestor for months now, about how it's a poorly designed unit. I thought Zerg was supposed to be the "reactionary" race. The Infestor is in complete opposition with that notion as it's the best all purpose unit in the game.
What we see here is Blizzard covering their asses. They know it's messed up but they don't have the time or resources to make the necessary changes, because as you noted, it would require a reevaluation of the entire game with respect to Zerg. From Blizzard's perspective, there's no reason to waste effort with drastic changes when you're already working on the next expansion. Basically, we are going to have to wait for HOTS to see if anything gets fixed.
|
On November 08 2012 14:50 Bellazuk wrote:
There's so many way to deal vs infestor that I can't count them, why people always wants blizz to nerf X things because they aren't whilling to try new things. Metagame is people being stupid and silly and following pros builds instead of thinking of what they could actually make to counter it.
Wise one, will you please share your profound insight with us?
|
i interpreted that mess as a longer version of saying "infestor will be nerfed soon if zerg keeps winning."
|
On November 08 2012 14:52 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote:
To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal.
"Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp). IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ...
Well, the Infestor becomes a sitting duck for the duration of the spell and spawns a huge tentacle that tells the enemy exactly which Infestor is channeling the spell. Not to mention the limited range that the mind-controlled unit can move.
If it weren't for Fungal, some units can easily run ahead and snipe the channeling Infestor.
|
On November 08 2012 14:47 Mjolnir wrote:
Zergs use Infestors every game because they have to. Zerg is boring as fuck and the devs totally dropped the ball on the race. I would bet that most Zergs would love to use more varied strats but they can't because they've been forced to rely on a few select units for every match up.
Banes suck without Infestor support (against a skilled enemy, they're awful against units they're meant to counter)
Roaches are average without Infestor support.
BLs are exposed and weak without Infestor support.
Infestors counter muta, blink stalker, bio, hellion, drops, banshee, VR, etc. etc.
Zergs make them because they have to.
The devs shouldn't have been so fucking stubborn and just given Zergs the Lurker. There's your anti-infantry solution and it doesn't counter air, it doesn't lock down an army and deny micro, it doesn't spawn free units, it just does it's job. The same job that Banes were supposed to do (and fail at) and Infestors have now been employed and tweaked to do too well.
"Support" is the key word in all of this, but infestor has not been a "support" unit for a while.
|
They could start with basics...remove unit clumping in Hots.
|
On November 08 2012 15:06 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:52 Rabiator wrote:On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote:
To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal.
"Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp). IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ... Well, the Infestor becomes a sitting duck for the duration of the spell and spawns a huge tentacle that tells the enemy exactly which Infestor is channeling the spell. Not to mention the limited range that the mind-controlled unit can move. If it weren't for Fungal, some units can easily run ahead and snipe the channeling Infestor.
Basically this...
The neural parasites range was 9....vs Terran - tanks range is 13,ghost sniper fire range is 10 and its counters infestor.
vs Toss - Colossus range is 9,Carrier range starts from 8 and goes up to 14.
vs Zerg - GGloords range is 9.5,and u cant use it on Ultras
So u can snipe down the infestor pretty fast if u focus on it.
|
Call me crazy but I trust Blizzard professionals more than random raging forum posters. The 2.5 years of balance whine on record from the community is proof positive that the vast majority of community balance "feedback" is not to be taken seriously. Sorry folks, Blizzard has more info available to them than you, and you're not smarter than them.
|
Er.. I remember stephano maxing on broodlords with 20+ infestors at the beginning of the year..
It's been a very long time that they have been used like this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
