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On November 08 2012 14:01 Xeris wrote:
It's pretty insane that he posts this now.
"The Infestor has not changed in months and it is now appears over powered in some games. What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor. We are going to discuss it, watch games and see. "
It's been overpowered for months. I know what will be overpowered next month... the infestor. The patch happened 3-4 months ago and Zerg is still stupidly strong. A spellcaster shouldn't be as versatile as the infestor is where your army composition is 50% of one spellcaster.
Yet this is the first month where win-rate and results wise the game is actually favoring zerg. Ever since the patch happened the biggest tournaments have been at the most balanced state they have ever been until this GSL. Both of the big MLG championships had 6 5 5 race ratios in the ro16. The first MLG Arena was pretty zerg favored with top 3 being zerg but it was also within a week of the patch. The next one actually had very poor zerg representation and a TvP finals. Taeja won some other tournaments and MVP won IEM. The 2 GSLs in that time-frame were the most balanced GSLs ever both in win-rates and overall results. OSL had pretty good race ratios throughout. Zerg was actually the least represented. WCS Korea was ridiculously dominated by Protoss. WCG Korea was a TvP finals. TSL4 had a Protoss winner.
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On November 08 2012 15:40 Doodsmack wrote:
Call me crazy but I trust Blizzard professionals more than random raging forum posters. The 2.5 years of balance whine on record from the community is proof positive that the vast majority of community balance "feedback" is not to be taken seriously. Sorry folks, Blizzard has more info available to them than you, and you're not smarter than them.
You realize you're talking about the same blizzard that didn't know motherships were used in pvz, right?
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On November 08 2012 15:06 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:52 Rabiator wrote:On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote:
To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal.
"Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp). IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ... Well, the Infestor becomes a sitting duck for the duration of the spell and spawns a huge tentacle that tells the enemy exactly which Infestor is channeling the spell. Not to mention the limited range that the mind-controlled unit can move. If it weren't for Fungal, some units can easily run ahead and snipe the channeling Infestor.
Zerg can easily build a "screen" of free or dirt cheap units to block any ground unit from getting into range to kill the Infestor, so the immobility is only an issue if you are on the retreat. Otherwise they are pretty invulnerable at 9 range for Neural Parasite ... which is longer than any infantry and the siege units will be the ones targeted by Neural Parasite ... so none/very few of them will be in range.
It is a terrible spell, but the other two are worse.
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Northern Ireland27266 Posts
On November 08 2012 15:40 Doodsmack wrote:
Call me crazy but I trust Blizzard professionals more than random raging forum posters. The 2.5 years of balance whine on record from the community is proof positive that the vast majority of community balance "feedback" is not to be taken seriously. Sorry folks, Blizzard has more info available to them than you, and you're not smarter than them.
Way to characterise everyone posting on here, good job. While there are a lot of whiners too, there are also smarter and more erudite posters than I putting in some good feedback here.
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I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful.
On November 08 2012 14:47 Mjolnir wrote:
Zergs use Infestors every game because they have to. Zerg is boring as fuck and the devs totally dropped the ball on the race. I would bet that most Zergs would love to use more varied strats but they can't because they've been forced to rely on a few select units for every match up.
Banes suck without Infestor support (against a skilled enemy, they're awful against units they're meant to counter)
Roaches are average without Infestor support.
BLs are exposed and weak without Infestor support.
Infestors counter muta, blink stalker, bio, hellion, drops, banshee, VR, etc. etc.
Zergs make them because they have to.
The devs shouldn't have been so fucking stubborn and just given Zergs the Lurker. There's your anti-infantry solution and it doesn't counter air, it doesn't lock down an army and deny micro, it doesn't spawn free units, it just does it's job. The same job that Banes were supposed to do (and fail at) and Infestors have now been employed and tweaked to do too well.
Yeah I totally agree. I think the fact that they also forced all the other zerg spells (neural parasite, infested terran) to suck also affects this. While fungal growth is good, it wouldn't be as noticeable or have "concretely proven/discovered" as being effective if zerg had more reliable alternatives (mutalisks often not being enough, and all other zerg spells suck).
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Northern Ireland27266 Posts
On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote:
I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful.
Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed.
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On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote:
I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless).
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On November 08 2012 15:44 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:06 eviltomahawk wrote:On November 08 2012 14:52 Rabiator wrote:On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote:
To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal.
"Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp). IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ... Well, the Infestor becomes a sitting duck for the duration of the spell and spawns a huge tentacle that tells the enemy exactly which Infestor is channeling the spell. Not to mention the limited range that the mind-controlled unit can move. If it weren't for Fungal, some units can easily run ahead and snipe the channeling Infestor. Zerg can easily build a "screen" of free or dirt cheap units to block any ground unit from getting into range to kill the Infestor, so the immobility is only an issue if you are on the retreat. Otherwise they are pretty invulnerable at 9 range for Neural Parasite ... which is longer than any infantry and the siege units will be the ones targeted by Neural Parasite ... so none/very few of them will be in range. It is a terrible spell, but the other two are worse.
Maybe a nerf to range 8 would have been more reasonable than a nerf to range 7 so that at least Colossi have some room to avoid the spell without making the spell itself too useless. And alternatively, the opponent should also have a meat shield in front of their siege units to avoid such situations.
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4 easy steps to fix zerg...
1) Make infestors smaller so that emp, and other aoe effects are more devasting when clumped up.
2) Nerf I.T range or dps OR Fungal to slow effect 60%, but not both.
3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply
4) Buff other zerg unit(s) to retain balance, but less reliance on infestor.
Emphasis on Hydra, corruptor.
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Northern Ireland27266 Posts
On November 08 2012 15:54 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote:
I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless).
I actually quite like IT, the playerbase has found a lot of interesting ways to use it, like tanking that initial volley of tank fire, or harassing expansions and stuff. When infestor play was being figured out most people, including myself thought these were pretty cool, innovative way to use the unit, it's just that as the use of it has become more refined everybody is getting sick to death of the things.
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On November 08 2012 15:40 Doodsmack wrote:
Call me crazy but I trust Blizzard professionals more than random raging forum posters. The 2.5 years of balance whine on record from the community is proof positive that the vast majority of community balance "feedback" is not to be taken seriously. Sorry folks, Blizzard has more info available to them than you, and you're not smarter than them.
Just because the game SEEMS TO WORK doesnt mean it couldnt be better. Just think about the DENSITY in which you can have your infantry units and then compare that to the same density in BW and put it into comparison with AoE units like the Reaver and Siege Tank. You will see a drastic change. If you think about the math then you will notice that the drastically increased dps of the infantry clumps makes it necessary to balance unit numbers much more precisely than it was necessary in BW. Since maps have always an influence on the balance/viability of units this seems to be a bad thing AND a concentrated/maximized dps for ground units will make any big units (capital ships, siege units, Thor, Immortal, ...) rather less durable than they should be.
The influence of maps doesnt really end there, because all three races have gotten production speed boosts which kick in at different times, so they are disadvantaged at any other time (usually before that timing for your own race). Is this a wise thing to have? If you think so I would really like an explanation why, because to me it is stupid, because it makes small maps like Steppes of War terrible for Zerg and gigantic maps terrible for any non-Zerg.
The clumped up infantry units make defensive structures worthless, because their concentrated and maximized firepower kills those structures much too fast. This limits defensive and positional play and that is terrible.
Sooo ... if you think there is anything wrong with these arguments as to why Blizzard is doing a terrible job at balancing the game then please explain the reasoning to me. Its not about turning SC2 into BW, but there are several bad things which the older game did NOT suffer from and several limitations for the newer game which are caused by "newer technology" and "better stuff" (like unlimited unit selection and tight formations).
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On November 08 2012 16:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:54 Xapti wrote:On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote:
I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless). I actually quite like IT, the playerbase has found a lot of interesting ways to use it, like tanking that initial volley of tank fire, or harassing expansions and stuff. When infestor play was being figured out most people, including myself thought these were pretty cool, innovative way to use the unit, it's just that as the use of it has become more refined everybody is getting sick to death of the things.
I still think that stuff is cool, but it use to be a few infestors on the field and 2 or 3 IT were used to soak a few tank volleys (which is awesome). Now it is toss 80 IT out with zero thought on placement to soak tank shots, and kill everything, which is really boring.
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On November 08 2012 15:54 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote:
I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless).
Infested Terran would be an acceptable spell if these units couldnt be stacked as much as they can. Just compare them to the autoturret and you will see that the infested terran costs only half the energy and can be placed in a much higher density with a much higher "troop dps" compared to the turret. That is more important than the longer duration of the turret and its individually higher dps; in the end the infested Terrans deal more damage and last long enough for a battle.
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On November 08 2012 16:05 Incomplet wrote:
4 easy steps to fix zerg...
1) Make infestors smaller so that emp, and other aoe effects are more devasting when clumped up.
2) Nerf I.T range or dps OR Fungal to slow effect 60%, but not both.
3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply
4) Buff other zerg unit(s) to retain balance, but less reliance on infestor.
Emphasis on Hydra, corruptor.
Now you are just nerving things in the ground.
And i am intrested in buff other zerg units ? like What ? It's all going to melt to AOE units. (you would need to redesign Zerg as a race, things like this can not be done by a "simple" patch)
Your point 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply, is more then fine.
Less infestors and they do exactly what they were ment to do.
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Don't have much to say except that I hope they start balancing around what is fun to watch, rather than just what makes a matchup imbalanced ;/
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Just saw the GOMTV HOTS last match, as gisado destroyed whole p army just whit couple (about 15) infestors. Combined whit lings and 3-4 broodlords the protoss couldnt engage while he should have, because chain fungal would have just killed him even that he had few colossi and moderate amount of stalkers. At least not the absolute HIGHEST level of play, infestor seems like that it can come out on top in most of the situations and are more forgiving.
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I can make a balanced game in seconds where there's a counter that goes up over time that allows you to buy dots that can fight each other with the same exact stats, it's balanced but it sure as hell isn't fun to watch. Why is the argument that it's balanced mean that it's okay for the game to be boring for spectators? No caster should be able to be massed, not infestors, not ghosts, not hts. Honestly infestors at this point are worse than ghosts or khaydarin amulet ever were. At least it was fun to watch ManZenith owning people.
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Northern Ireland27266 Posts
On November 08 2012 16:26 Sepi wrote:
Just saw the GOMTV HOTS last match, as gisado destroyed whole p army just whit couple (about 15) infestors. Combined whit lings and 3-4 broodlords the protoss couldnt engage while he should have, because chain fungal would have just killed him even that he had few colossi and moderate amount of stalkers. At least not the absolute HIGHEST level of play, infestor seems like that it can come out on top in most of the situations and are more forgiving.
I think FBH had his play wonky. I'd imagine that PvZ in HoTS, it would be better to play standard as we see now, maybe with Stargate for Oracles/ Phoenix, into establishing a third and getting a good Stalker/Collosus ball, THEN add the tempest.
FBH added the tempest far earlier than seems optimal, at least from an outside looking in.
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On November 08 2012 16:25 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:05 Incomplet wrote:
4 easy steps to fix zerg...
1) Make infestors smaller so that emp, and other aoe effects are more devasting when clumped up.
2) Nerf I.T range or dps OR Fungal to slow effect 60%, but not both.
3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply
4) Buff other zerg unit(s) to retain balance, but less reliance on infestor.
Emphasis on Hydra, corruptor. Now you are just nerving things in the ground. And i am intrested in buff other zerg units ? like What ? It's all going to melt to AOE units. (you would need to redesign Zerg as a race, things like this can not be done by a "simple" patch) Your point 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply, is more then fine. Less infestors and they do exactly what they were ment to do.
When bargaining, you drop it down by more than you're willing to pay to get a happy medium.
ie: something costs $20, drop it down to $10, settle on $15 
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On November 08 2012 16:33 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:26 Sepi wrote:
Just saw the GOMTV HOTS last match, as gisado destroyed whole p army just whit couple (about 15) infestors. Combined whit lings and 3-4 broodlords the protoss couldnt engage while he should have, because chain fungal would have just killed him even that he had few colossi and moderate amount of stalkers. At least not the absolute HIGHEST level of play, infestor seems like that it can come out on top in most of the situations and are more forgiving. I think FBH had his play wonky. I'd imagine that PvZ in HoTS, it would be better to play standard as we see now, maybe with Stargate for Oracles/ Phoenix, into establishing a third and getting a good Stalker/Collosus ball, THEN add the tempest. FBH added the tempest far earlier than seems optimal, at least from an outside looking in.
Maybe, just saw the conclusion as i tuned in literally 15s before the first engagement.
That was the only part i saw, but still throwed it out.
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EPT
