EPTDustin Browder On the Infestor - Page 13
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KaRath_
Australia245 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On November 08 2012 16:32 RainMore wrote: I can make a balanced game in seconds where there's a counter that goes up over time that allows you to buy dots that can fight each other with the same exact stats, it's balanced but it sure as hell isn't fun to watch. Why is the argument that it's balanced mean that it's okay for the game to be boring for spectators? No caster should be able to be massed, not infestors, not ghosts, not hts. Honestly infestors at this point are worse than ghosts or khaydarin amulet ever were. At least it was fun to watch ManZenith owning people. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that casters should not be massed. No caster should ever be anything but a support unit, or the game goes seriously out of whack. If a caster is massable, then it will ALWAYS turn into a completely homogenized fighting force. Look at 8-damage Sentries: people were starting to mess around with mass Sentry before the nerf. Would have been boring and homogenous (although you'd need Immortals to deal with Siege Tanks). Look at TvZ Ghosts: lategame was just "can I mass enough Ghosts?" Boring as anything. Now the Infestors are doing the same thing. In Broodwar, we had no massable casters. High Templar are WAY too slow and weak (just like in SC2; the Khaydarin nerf wasn't to stop them from massing). Science Vessels can't actually damage buildings, have zero defense against Scourge, and can't kill things in the other matchups. Defilers, arguably the best casters in the game, can't actually kill anything but some Terran buildings. All the other casters are just plain bad (in most circumstances, no need to point out the utility of Queens in ZvT). This is good for the game. The Infestor, on the other hand, has powerful zone control and powerful stacking DPS against everything. One Infestor is kinda meh, but they never start getting bad no matter how many you add on. That's a real problem, and something that Blizzard needs to address. Right now, it doesn't matter how many Ghosts or High Templar you introduce. The solution will always be more Infestors. They feedback 10 of your Infestors? Solution to that is having 10 more, not to phase out Infestors entirely. Unless this core problem is fixed, the Infestor issue will never go away. This ultimately isn't a balance issue. It's a design issue. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
What about if we go back to the original NP nerv of NP range 9, no massive, but also make it free of research. And why is everybody focusing on the infestor part of the BL/Iinf combo. Maybe lowerng the rang of the BL from 9.5 to 9 and slightly decreasing the initial damage would help. In order to counter infestor the range of feedback and emp could be increased by 1. But then please als nerv archon toilet either by decreasing vortex size or increasing invunurability time after beeing cortexed. NP on mothership and archon toilet are the most boring was to watch a game end. And I am mainly interessted in watching this game. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On November 08 2012 17:03 Acritter wrote: I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that casters should not be massed. No caster should ever be anything but a support unit, or the game goes seriously out of whack. If a caster is massable, then it will ALWAYS turn into a completely homogenized fighting force. Look at 8-damage Sentries: people were starting to mess around with mass Sentry before the nerf. Would have been boring and homogenous (although you'd need Immortals to deal with Siege Tanks). Look at TvZ Ghosts: lategame was just "can I mass enough Ghosts?" Boring as anything. Now the Infestors are doing the same thing. In Broodwar, we had no massable casters. High Templar are WAY too slow and weak (just like in SC2; the Khaydarin nerf wasn't to stop them from massing). Science Vessels can't actually damage buildings, have zero defense against Scourge, and can't kill things in the other matchups. Defilers, arguably the best casters in the game, can't actually kill anything but some Terran buildings. All the other casters are just plain bad (in most circumstances, no need to point out the utility of Queens in ZvT). This is good for the game. The Infestor, on the other hand, has powerful zone control and powerful stacking DPS against everything. One Infestor is kinda meh, but they never start getting bad no matter how many you add on. That's a real problem, and something that Blizzard needs to address. Right now, it doesn't matter how many Ghosts or High Templar you introduce. The solution will always be more Infestors. They feedback 10 of your Infestors? Solution to that is having 10 more, not to phase out Infestors entirely. Unless this core problem is fixed, the Infestor issue will never go away. This ultimately isn't a balance issue. It's a design issue. very good post. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On November 08 2012 16:14 Rabiator wrote: Infested Terran would be an acceptable spell if these units couldnt be stacked as much as they can. Just compare them to the autoturret and you will see that the infested terran costs only half the energy and can be placed in a much higher density with a much higher "troop dps" compared to the turret. That is more important than the longer duration of the turret and its individually higher dps; in the end the infested Terrans deal more damage and last long enough for a battle. auto-turret has 3 times more health, an extra base armor, 1-2 extra range, spawns instantly, and lasts long enough to be a huge pain as well as re-useable for multiple engagements. Infested terrans are inferior to auto-turrets in various ways. While they have a great advantage of being denser and placeable anywhere on the ground, they have a huge warning time before deploying and a very limited duration. Because of this, a defender does not always have to deal with the infested terrans directly — they can just run the necessary things away (command center, SCVs, army) and be done with it. With a range of only 5 and slow movement speed, infested terrans aren't particularly useful as combat units due to taking pot shots before being able to deal any damage to ranged units; they're pretty much only useful in combat against zealot compositions without colossus or storm (unlikely), or zerg units. That said, I'm not saying Auto-turret is a great ability either, but I think it's much more appropriate the way it's implemented — zerg doesn't need any more cannon fodder, they already have broodlings and zerglings (and roaches). The fact that they can be compacted just makes them even weaker against psionic storms, colossus, planetary fortresses, hellions, and siege tanks. Ravens and infestors both have the problem where you have caster units that can essentially be used solo as ultimate counter-all units, and in both cases it's due to their spawn-unit abilities; this sort of mechanic is dangerous to implement in a game because it doesn't take much skill to do, and in situations like SC2 can cause casters to be potentially too strong/multi-purpose. | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On November 08 2012 16:34 Incomplet wrote: When bargaining, you drop it down by more than you're willing to pay to get a happy medium. ie: something costs $20, drop it down to $10, settle on $15  Except you drop it down to $2.50  but fair enough. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
Nice work, Rock, and the right way to go about it. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On November 08 2012 17:09 FinestHour wrote: what a joke that they did so many knee-jerk reaction nerfs to blue flame and snipe, yet want to keep waiting. where were the test maps for those :[ No. For one thing win rates was not as balanced back then as now, and secondly scenarios aren't always the same. With ghosts it was evident that there was no solid way for zerg to counter them due to their high range and high damage against all zerg units. Infestor had numerous rather quick tweaks with regards to both fungal growth and neural parasite; some of them were in the beta. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
Think about it: They are currently working to balance Hots out: the tempest is designed to weaken the dominance of infestor broodlord in zvp, thus any infestor nerf has to be corresponding to the new army composition of Z and P. Mind you im talking about the role Blizzard has in mind for the Tempest, not necessarily its actual state. So Hots ultimately has different demands in terms of balancing regarding the infestor than Wol. Now, do you think it is likely that blizzard will nerf the Infestor in WoL in order to buff it right back up in Hots? My take is, Blizzard is pretty aware of the infestor issue but will not act about it until Hots is out. It means to much trouble for them and the community would regard it as flippy and shortsided. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 08 2012 17:18 Scila wrote: This is all nice and dandy if they reverse the Thor and Ghost nerfs, admitting they were wrong and unnecessary. But they won't... Reversing the thor nerf, no. 250mm strike cannon is a dumb ability that is near impossible to balance and i'd rather they remove it completely then return it to the way it was. The ghost nerf was justified, i just don't like the way in which they did it. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On November 08 2012 17:15 Xapti wrote: No. For one thing win rates was not as balanced back then as now, and secondly scenarios aren't always the same. With ghosts it was evident that there was no solid way for zerg to counter them due to their high range and high damage against all zerg units. Infestor had numerous rather quick tweaks with regards to both fungal growth and neural parasite; some of them were in the beta. Just because terran wins half the time by early-mid game, and zerg wins in late game, and the win ratio in the match up is close to 50/50, it doesn't mean its balanced. Every race should have an equal chance to win or lose at any point in any matchup. Also, the Ghost snipe nerf was completely unwarranted. Ghosts were incredibly expensive, and took a ton of micro to actually use correctly. If anything it was balanced in late game with pre-nerf snipe, and Terran still needed to micro more than Zerg. Do you even know how many clicks it took to use snipe effectively? While at the same time avoiding getting all your ghosts from getting chain fungaled, and controlling the rest of your army at the same time? | ||
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bailando
Germany332 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On November 08 2012 17:08 Xapti wrote: auto-turret has 3 times more health, an extra base armor, 1-2 extra range, spawns instantly, and lasts long enough to be a huge pain as well as re-useable for multiple engagements. Infested terrans are inferior to auto-turrets in various ways. While they have a great advantage of being denser and placeable anywhere on the ground, they have a huge warning time before deploying and a very limited duration. Because of this, a defender does not always have to deal with the infested terrans directly — they can just run the necessary things away (command center, SCVs, army) and be done with it. With a range of only 5 and slow movement speed, infested terrans aren't particularly useful as combat units due to taking pot shots before being able to deal any damage to ranged units; they're pretty much only useful in combat against zealot compositions without colossus or storm (unlikely), or zerg units. That said, I'm not saying Auto-turret is a great ability either, but I think it's much more appropriate the way it's implemented — zerg doesn't need any more cannon fodder, they already have broodlings and zerglings (and roaches). The fact that they can be compacted just makes them even weaker against psionic storms, colossus, planetary fortresses, hellions, and siege tanks. Infested Terran is simply awesome to tear down undefended buildings and when you are able to suppress your opponents army with Fungal Growth and/or Banelings. If the opponent targets the Banelings he loses to the "opened eggs" of the infested Terrans and if he kills the eggs then the Banelings wipe him. Its simply too much "swarm" with half of it costing neither minerals nor gas when any AoE attack abilities have been nerfed to pretty bad damage output. Autoturret suffers from the weakness of the unit itself when faced by a concentrated firepower of a clump of tightly grouped opposing infantry[*] AND from the low range of 3 to cast it which endangers the Raven much more than the range of 9 (plus possible burrow) for the infested terran. [*] This is a problem for any defensive structures which are not supported by an army. On November 08 2012 17:24 bailando wrote: i can hear terrans crying. lololol I can see trolls trolling (posting without adding to the discussion or even to try and argue). | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 08 2012 17:15 Xapti wrote: No. For one thing win rates was not as balanced back then as now, and secondly scenarios aren't always the same. With ghosts it was evident that there was no solid way for zerg to counter them due to their high range and high damage against all zerg units. Infestor had numerous rather quick tweaks with regards to both fungal growth and neural parasite; some of them were in the beta. How was it 'evident' when they weren't really in play for more than 1 month before they were nerfed. Zergs never had the time to innovate!!! | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
How can't they understand that? | ||
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Luisa_2
Germany200 Posts
Also Infested Terrans dps is insane and add so much fire power to a fight, which can give zerg, depending on which state of the game, 150+ food worth of army supply while still having 60+drones. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
On November 08 2012 17:03 Acritter wrote: Yeah except it cant be fixed unless you weaken infesters dramatically, to the point where the unit is entirely redesigned [which means a rebalancing of every single zerg unit] or its simply abandoned, which would also necessitate total redesign.I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that casters should not be massed. No caster should ever be anything but a support unit, or the game goes seriously out of whack. If a caster is massable, then it will ALWAYS turn into a completely homogenized fighting force. Look at 8-damage Sentries: people were starting to mess around with mass Sentry before the nerf. Would have been boring and homogenous (although you'd need Immortals to deal with Siege Tanks). Look at TvZ Ghosts: lategame was just "can I mass enough Ghosts?" Boring as anything. Now the Infestors are doing the same thing. In Broodwar, we had no massable casters. High Templar are WAY too slow and weak (just like in SC2; the Khaydarin nerf wasn't to stop them from massing). Science Vessels can't actually damage buildings, have zero defense against Scourge, and can't kill things in the other matchups. Defilers, arguably the best casters in the game, can't actually kill anything but some Terran buildings. All the other casters are just plain bad (in most circumstances, no need to point out the utility of Queens in ZvT). This is good for the game. The Infestor, on the other hand, has powerful zone control and powerful stacking DPS against everything. One Infestor is kinda meh, but they never start getting bad no matter how many you add on. That's a real problem, and something that Blizzard needs to address. Right now, it doesn't matter how many Ghosts or High Templar you introduce. The solution will always be more Infestors. They feedback 10 of your Infestors? Solution to that is having 10 more, not to phase out Infestors entirely. Unless this core problem is fixed, the Infestor issue will never go away. This ultimately isn't a balance issue. It's a design issue. | ||
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iAmBiGbiRd
Australia1029 Posts
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