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On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason.
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
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On November 08 2012 09:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:39 Gheed wrote:
I don't understand why when for a month or two a handful of games on some maps featured "unbeatable" collosus-void ray balls, they nerfed void rays, but when every single game for a year that doesn't feature a rush involves tons of infestors they "wait and see." Because the community kept complaining that they were patching things too fast without waiting to see if anyone can figure stuff out, like in WoW (i don't play WoW but i hear about that)
Well the most obscure balance change they made remains the queen range patch. I'll never get what made them do this change. It came right out of the open, noone, no single zerg player, felt, that a queen buff was necessary at that time. Since then I highly doubt, that the balance team of Blizzard knows their game well.
On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
In fact Protoss have a unit that counters infestors really well - The colossus! The colossus isn't very vulnerable to fungal growth and is the best unit in the game to deal with infested terran. But to solve this problem, Zerg have got the two best units in the game to deal with colossus: Corruptors and Broodlords  .
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On November 08 2012 09:36 Venomsflame wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. You guys claimed he was watching low league play and he shows you a game featuring two fantastic players... He's not the one digging himself into a hole. He BACKED UP his claim with a game off of the top of his head. 15 or so sentries happens. It is not as uncommon as you seem to think it is.
It happened in that one game, and probably others where immortal-in is used. But it doesn't make it common. It's an all-in build. Building that many sentries in a "normal" game just doesn't happen. Getting close to 10 in a macro game PvZ gets Protoss vulnerable to a muta switch or delays tech by too much to make it viable. The standard is around 6 in an expand build (to three bases), while reactively getting more if Zerg commits to a roach max. And you don't see anything close to that number in PvP or PvT.
But getting many infestors in any ZvX is never horrible, unless Z skimps a lot in all other units or is doing something else equally ridiculous. There is no real drawback to massing infestor, no diminishing returns or feasible vulnerability, it is not a reaction to something specific. I is almost always good to get as many infestors as Z can get away with in all matchups. It's just a question of "how much" and "how early" infestors are built (or "how greedy" can I be with my infestor count), not "wheter" or not they should be made.
There is no point in discussing wheter or not infestor is overused, that is obvious. What is left is to speculate when blizzard will do something about it, and 2012 is not looking like a good bet. The ideal solution would be a general nerf to fungal and a buff to other Z units That is hard to pull off right in a single patch, so delaying any action just makes believe that this problem will not be solved in WOL.
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On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way.
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It's boring to watch the same meta game play out over and over again. But I'm not sure Zerg has the tools to win with a nerfed infestor.
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Just curious, why haven't Terrans been using ghosts more often? It seems like a much more interesting way of "solving" the problem with infestors is to change the way the game is played, rather than reduce the amount of options that is available to the zerg.
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On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way.
TLO Nydus counter. Nuff said. He kept on using it in... ROG I believe... Worked very well.
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On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason.
15 minutes is already entering late game. That's not early mid game anymore.
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On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way.
Using mass sentries to justify mass infestors? How low can you get.......
Sentries are actually SUPPORT casters and cant win the game alone, unlike imbafestors.
Sentries do lousy damage, 100 gases, cant defend against mutas and FF get ROFLstomp by ultralisk.
Now tell me something that actuall counter the infestors?
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What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor
Well that seems to be in line with how they develop the game. Good job letting the community feel like you care without saying anything.
I think we have all known that changing fungal from stun to slow would be the best possible approach, and for some magical reason blizzard didn't even bother to try that change on a ptr/test map, or any other change for that matter. I don't get how you can be fine with making some nerfs within weeks of when something looks imbalance, even fine with nerfing 4 gate after it stopped being an issue on a pro level or adding phoenix range after people figured out how to deal with mutas, and then don't even try to do shit about a unit where I don't even feel like you can have too many of.
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On November 08 2012 09:46 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:39 Gheed wrote:
I don't understand why when for a month or two a handful of games on some maps featured "unbeatable" collosus-void ray balls, they nerfed void rays, but when every single game for a year that doesn't feature a rush involves tons of infestors they "wait and see." Nice logical fallacy there...
I don't see how not understanding something is fallacious. If before they felt they had sufficient data to nerf something after 3-4 months, and infestors haven't been touched for over a year (queens and other stuff have been changed since then, but not infestors themselves) then either they a., don't know what to do with the infestor, b., something has changed about their data collection methods, or c., that data has borne out that infestors are fine.
What Dustin said doesn't actually say anything. Replace "infestor" in his post with any other strategy and the sentences would still make sense.
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On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
16 siege tanks and a raven? 2 colossi and 4 carriers? All the zerglings? 5 ghosts with 5 nukes? The Automaton 2 with minigun upgrade?
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Something I learned from watching The Wire:
FUCK the number games.
Focus on fixing the problems with the design before moving onto balance.
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On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly?
Infestor has become the bunker of SC2. The majority want it changed and think it's bad unit design. Blizzard isn't listening closely enough. This is one apprehensive step after nearly a year of stale and widely complained about late game.
Not very awesome. If I'm late to work and my boss describes it as "awesome" I'd think my resume needs updating.
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On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too?
Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too.
Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?.
Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove.
These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors?
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On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way.
Couldn't have been because the zerg played it wrong! Couldn't have been that they slammed roach+ling into forcefields expecting to get lucky! Couldn't have been lack of infestors at 15 MINUTES
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On November 08 2012 09:56 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly? Infestor has become the bunker of SC2. The majority want it changed and think it's bad unit design. Blizzard isn't listening closely enough. This is one apprehensive step after nearly a year of stale and widely complained about late game. Not very awesome. If I'm late to work and my boss describes it as "awesome" I'd think my resume needs updating.
Oddly enough most of those bunker changes became pointless the moment larger maps became the norm.
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On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way.
Zergs have just gotten complacent with the cost-effectiveness of Roach/Ling. Only Parting can seriously get good % success rates. Most pro-Zergs handle non-Partings very easily, achieve X Infestors, and collect their points.
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I think fungal is fine, and infested terrans are the problem. They should try doubling the energy cost and see how that works out. It seems that there are just way too many available at all times, literally doubling the zerg army at times.
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On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove.
Infestors rape ghosts and high templar because of 1+ broodlords behind.
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EPT
