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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units. And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. | ||
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Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
You guys complain about infestor root, but at least all our units dont out range yours. Protoss units all out range zerg units with the Immortal range buff they got to defend 1/1/1. Do you realize how retarded it is when toss has 10 sentries with full energy and can cast 63634 forcefields locking down entire army for 1 in game minute easily, wiping it out with taking no dmg? With alot of sentries on the field, any possible aggression is almost impossible if protoss plays right; its all in the hands of protoss and not zerg. Its just as bad as fungal imo... just not in the late game. Heres a deal: Remove fungal, remove forcefield. But then you need to nerf marines and marauders to compensate. Funny protoss gets buff to defend 1/1/1 because it was too hard to hold. You think immortal sentry all ins are easy to hold? If toss put some pressure early on and slowsdown the droning/powering, the following immortal sentry all ins are sooo hard to hold,.. if you dont have infestors its crazy... Protoss whined about 1/1/1, got immortal buff. Protoss whined about mutas? got OP as hell pheonix that shoot while moving. Mutas cant even fight against pheonixes, even if almost double ressource investment. I used to go mutas alot in ZvP, so i didnt have to deal with Forcefields bullshit. Now with the new pheonix, going mutas can lose you the game if protoss was making a bunch of pheonixes, you cant even run mutas away from pheonixes... So now only way, 5min gaz, lair early, rush to infestor. I fungal those damn sentries and throw infestted terran above forcefields. its the best and safest way to stop Immo/sentry all-ins, other than hoping that the toss miss forcefields... Seriously if you want infestor nerf, better freaking fix situations where the outcome of a battle is ALLLLLL in the end of a protoss; all about his forcefield, zerg has to say in the battle, just try to *dodge* or bait bad forcefields, wich is again in the hands of the protoss. I very much so agree that infestors and infested terran are ridiculusly too powerful, most zergs know that, we play ZvZ you know. In ZVZ, as soon as someone has 10+ infestors, its always too risky to make a move, or even attack, you just have to wait for broodlords and turtle, because in theory, defending players with infestors cannot lose in similar macro situations. The whole game right now is a huge mess, starting from roaches beeing 75/25 but 2 supply, Game is designed around roach 1 supply. Either make roach weaker and put them back at 1 supply; or keep them 2 supply, but increase their cost and make them better. A 2 supply 75/25 roach makes no sense; its easy to see: A max roach army loses to max marine without stim, loses to everything terran has besides hellions or reapers. Max roach loses to max stalkers as well, but thats fair since stalkers cost more... but then again stalkers can attack air, move faster, have more range and can blink. But theres even more!!! Without infestors, Good terrans could probably win with only marines... banelings alone dont cut it against good splits, marines dps is insanely good, and they cost 50 minerals only... Without infestors, i have no idea how we could beat a marine tank composition that is controlled almost perfectly. Finally; heres a brilliant idea i just got. Instead of nerfing infestors, give the other races proper ways to deal with them. -Terrans already have emp, maybe increase its range a little bit ( might break tvp , but maybe not with the next change). - For Protoss, remove vortex from mothership, but give it a MASS Aoe EMP like ability, you cast it on a clump of infestors and plop, no energy on all of them. It could be as big as current vortex, or even as big as recall. It would not break PVP since both sides can have one, would even make it interesting. It would also compensate for the increase EMP range on ghost, it would be a race of terran trying to emp the mothership, and mothership trying to emp ghost clumps, Obviously mothership emp would need bigger range to compensate fact that terran can spread their ghosts. ANd there you have it, those mass infestors clumps would be High risk in the late game, get them all EMPd and they are all useless. But a sprinkle of infestors here and there would still be very good to add to your army. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units. And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Thanks for adding to the discussion. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
You are welcome! Feel free to ask for more genuine theories. | ||
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dddoushio
81 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units. And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Completely unbiased opinion, right here. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:58 dddoushio wrote: Completely unbiased opinion, right here. I feel the same each time I see patch notes showed by game loader. | ||
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dddoushio
81 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:02 Fr0d0 wrote: I feel the same each time I see patch notes showed by game loader. On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. ? | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units. And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
EDIT: can someone make a gif of it plox On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote: Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. imo the game was balanced after the first year, then some of the patches later were "nice" but most after the first year just were fucking around with the game state | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:02 Fr0d0 wrote: I feel the same each time I see patch notes showed by game loader. You are adding nothing to this discussion about the infestor with your "l2p whiney terran/protoss" comment. The overwhelming majority of the community believes at the VERY least the infestor is flawed, mostly for the reason that it fills too many roles. Even if the game is technically balanced by blizzard's standards (win rates on all levels), it doesn't change the fact that a huge chunk of PvZ wins come from 2 base all ins and zerg wins the majority of the time the game reaches the later stages. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote: Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. | ||
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dddoushio
81 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:16 kmillz wrote: You are adding nothing to this discussion about the infestor with your "l2p whiney terran/protoss" comment. The overwhelming majority of the community believes at the VERY least the infestor is flawed, mostly for the reason that it fills too many roles. Even if the game is technically balanced by blizzard's standards (win rates on all levels), it doesn't change the fact that a huge chunk of PvZ wins come from 2 base all ins and zerg wins the majority of the time the game reaches the later stages. I didn't bring ladder statistic disscusion here, bro. Your complain is misplaced. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote: 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that. | ||
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dddoushio
81 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote: May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:33 zhurai wrote: representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that. I totally agree with your point of view. I have no idea why people makes post like this one(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380738¤tpage=34#670) and are trying to claim some imbalance and demand unjustified nerfs. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:13 zhurai wrote: whenever I see this topic, I always have the mental image of browder riding an infestor... EDIT: can someone make a gif of it plox imo the game was balanced after the first year, then some of the patches later were "nice" but most after the first year just were fucking around with the game state Their patches afterwards were infuriating, nerfing anything within a month of it's advent. It's such an odd position Blizzard is at, finally backing off on patching to let the metagame develop when the metagame is in a stale state (from a patch too, lol). Overall I'm content and optimistic, though. At least some progress was made. On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. The metagame is at a stale point where Terrans and Protoss are reliant on timing attacks to manage zerg's fairly strong lategame, as broodlord infestor compositions are generally more often victorious than not. I'm not sure how you can see no reason for Terrans to be disgruntled at the current state of the metagame where Zerg is very strong at the moment. While I'd love for an epiphany in some Terran genius that solves the metagame and mixes everything up again, at some point, if the metagame remains as is, it'd probably be better off being patched. This conclusion isn't knee-jerk either. Blizzard gave the community ample opportunity. As long as the solution is appropriate. Keep in mind this all began when Queens were buffed, effectively ending hellion pressure denying thirds giving way for fast 3 cc -- conversely, resulting in the turtle zerg style: rushing to broodlords behind wall upon wall of fungals. | ||
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dddoushio
81 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote: I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground. | ||
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