EPTDustin Browder On the Infestor - Page 33
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
On November 10 2012 08:45 i)awn wrote: The infestor's problem is it's effectiveness vs air and land units and it's ability to completely shutdown the sky path for the opponent while still being very effective vs ground units. Making it less effective vs air will dramatically change the viable game styles and it would really be best for the game. However this is all should be done while making sure balance is preserved. I'm afraid that no one would ever make infestors in the midgame again if they became less good at AA, but I guess removing fungal vs AA and leaving ITs in place could work. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 10 2012 07:32 Zanno wrote: i feel like i'm probably the only person who'd rather see cost/supply changes to the infestor than direct nerfs Probably. People hate how ungodly boring of a spell fungal is. Even if they don't spam 20 infestors, and only have 6-7, infestor/BL will still be incredibly strong. The fact that fungal chain can kill your army WITHOUT you dealing ANY damage in return is fucking stupid. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26539 Posts
On November 10 2012 10:02 FabledIntegral wrote: Probably. People hate how ungodly boring of a spell fungal is. Even if they don't spam 20 infestors, and only have 6-7, infestor/BL will still be incredibly strong. The fact that fungal chain can kill your army WITHOUT you dealing ANY damage in return is fucking stupid. Nah actually I agree. If balance changes are necessary, and I'm starting to lean that way I think it's best to tone things down gradually instead of doing wholescale changes early doors. Posted to that effect earlier here actually. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
On November 10 2012 10:15 Wombat_NI wrote: Nah actually I agree. If balance changes are necessary, and I'm starting to lean that way I think it's best to tone things down gradually instead of doing wholescale changes early doors. Posted to that effect earlier here actually. Wouldn't be so sure about that. If you watch progames recently, you will realize how ridiculously dominant this unit is. The effort needed to stop it (especially in conjunction with broodlords) simply does not make sense. I do not mind a massive buff to hydras in return for an equally massive nerf for the infestors. It really is getting out of hand here; any high level game with zerg is unwatchable, unless you find some sick pleasure from watching clumps of units stunned with green goo, and said green goo bringing the downfall of a the army, where the controller made only 1 minor mistake. There is no equally punishing mistake for zerg to do. The unfairness is unholy. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26539 Posts
It's more complex than patching the shit out of it, and I hate infestor play as much as anybody, but for example a massive hydra buff could see Hydra timings completely dominate Protoss, or force fast Collosus every single game which may be just as boring to watch. Patch gradually, if it's still regarded as broken by the majority, patch again but do it incrementally so you don't destabilise all the matchups massively. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 10 2012 12:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I do watch a lot of pro games, just bar things like 5 rax reaper which are clearly incredibly broken patching something can have huge effects on matchups. Just look at the Queen buff/OL speed buff combo which has really changed a lot of the way that ZvT goes. It's more complex than patching the shit out of it, and I hate infestor play as much as anybody, but for example a massive hydra buff could see Hydra timings completely dominate Protoss, or force fast Collosus every single game which may be just as boring to watch. Patch gradually, if it's still regarded as broken by the majority, patch again but do it incrementally so you don't destabilise all the matchups massively. I would love for a huge change in the matchup. You want infestor still to be the primary core unit with the main spell of this core unit being a root move? Ugh.... =[ | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
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Scootaloo SC2
United States122 Posts
On November 10 2012 20:58 NEEDZMOAR wrote: What if, and this is just a shot in the dark, Queens would cost gas? or at least any extra queens (a hatchery will remove the gascost from one queen) then there wouldnt be any gasless openings, Zerg would not as easily be able to sit on 3 base eco as early, and would not be able to mass out infestors in the way, perhaps even be forced to wait until hive tech before they would get them? Alternatively, why not make the range buff that queens got in the patch (3 -> 5 I think) an upgrade? The hard part about that is that it would tie up a building (spawning pool maybe? Hatch is probably out of the question). I'd say "give queens produced from lairs or hives the range buff" but I think that's too late in the game for the upgrade. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 10 2012 12:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I do watch a lot of pro games, just bar things like 5 rax reaper which are clearly incredibly broken patching something can have huge effects on matchups. Just look at the Queen buff/OL speed buff combo which has really changed a lot of the way that ZvT goes. It's more complex than patching the shit out of it, and I hate infestor play as much as anybody, but for example a massive hydra buff could see Hydra timings completely dominate Protoss, or force fast Collosus every single game which may be just as boring to watch. Patch gradually, if it's still regarded as broken by the majority, patch again but do it incrementally so you don't destabilise all the matchups massively. I also agreed that patch so be gradual. That is why a lot of people didn't understand why they didn't change to queen range to 4 first and see what happens. However, I do get Blizzard's reason. After a patch, it might take a few months for the meta game to evolve. Say the time frame is 3 months. And if you do 3 gradual patches, that means 9 months of time which is huge. | ||
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DidYuhim
Ukraine1905 Posts
It has a pretty high range(10[11]), it can efficiently counter air(ITs and fungal)[arbiter could also attack air, but you know], is mobile, upgrade required is stupidly cheep and quick to research, it's a T2 unit and is a pre-requisite for the T3; they're not even squishy, they got built-in panic run away mechanism which also can be used for stealth harassement. At same time, they got build time of 50, cost 100/150 and 2 supply. I'm just saying, make the unit so it has some drawbacks. So Zerg player gets punished for getting more than X Infestors. | ||
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mahO
France274 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. Thing is, you want to nerf infestors? Buff Hydras or roaches, infestors are the only cost effective per supply unit zerg got until broodlords, who themselves wouldnt be cost effective without fungals. And no, infestors based builds arent "OMAGAD IMBALANCED" they require proper counter. We still need to see EMPs used, more high templars used late game PvZ (20 infested terrans will die instantly to one storm, 20x25= 500 energy against 75) and feedback, and simply the fact that just as zergs encounter many situations where they have to trade base and avoid the deathballs from P & T, maybe P & T players should opt to change their way of playing the game instead of whining all the time about it, it took many months for zergs to realize the power of brood infestor, it shouldnt be instant countered. I'm actually very surprised at the lack of creativity in pros strategies, and yeah blablabla I hear it already, i'm not saying that I'm smarter than them or better, but zerg was underpowered for a year, we played on Steppes of War against old terran, and "nah, it's fine" they said, but now that terrans arent 80% of Code S, all of a sudden the world is ending, Blizzard fucked up etc etc. It's funny to read tho | ||
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DidYuhim
Ukraine1905 Posts
On November 10 2012 23:44 mahO wrote: Thing is, you want to nerf infestors? Buff Hydras or roaches, infestors are the only cost effective per supply unit zerg got until broodlords, who themselves wouldnt be cost effective without fungals. And no, infestors based builds arent "OMAGAD IMBALANCED" they require proper counter. We still need to see EMPs used, more high templars used late game PvZ (20 infested terrans will die instantly to one storm, 20x25= 500 energy against 75) and feedback, and simply the fact that just as zergs encounter many situations where they have to trade base and avoid the deathballs from P & T, maybe P & T players should opt to change their way of playing the game instead of whining all the time about it, it took many months for zergs to realize the power of brood infestor, it shouldnt be instant countered. I'm actually very surprised at the lack of creativity in pros strategies, and yeah blablabla I hear it already, i'm not saying that I'm smarter than them or better, but zerg was underpowered for a year, we played on Steppes of War against old terran, and "nah, it's fine" they said, but now that terrans arent 80% of Code S, all of a sudden the world is ending, Blizzard fucked up etc etc. It's funny to read tho You don't even know what you're talking about. You don't even know how Zerg is supposed to work. Don't even talk to me, your stupidity might be contagious. | ||
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mahO
France274 Posts
On November 10 2012 23:46 DidYuhim wrote: You don't even know what you're talking about. You don't even know how Zerg is supposed to work. Don't even talk to me, your stupidity might be contagious. Great point sir, I'm so sorry my stupidity might corrupt your gold league record | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
Ghosts vs. High Templars is always a treat to watch and a nice micro-fest, so I don't see why it should be any different with infestors vs. Ghosts and High Temps. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
Mass marines and blink stalkers vsZ nearly every game for 2 years are somehow full of skill and fun to watch. But mass infestors are broken and boring. So much hypocrisy and double standards. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On November 11 2012 00:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Lol at all this bitching about infestors. Mass marines and blink stalkers vsZ nearly every game for 2 years are somehow full of skill and fun to watch. But mass infestors are broken and boring. So much hypocrisy and double standards. you probably haven't watched sc2 for the last 1.5 years then. That's when mass marine/mass blink stalker went out of style, yo. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
On November 11 2012 00:25 TRaFFiC wrote: you probably haven't watched sc2 for the last 1.5 years then. That's when mass marine/mass blink stalker went out of style, yo. Yo, check out last MLG, you. You gonna see vsZ mass blink stalkers from Rain and mass marines from Flash yo. | ||
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NighTerra
Australia13 Posts
On November 10 2012 23:51 mahO wrote: Great point sir, I'm so sorry my stupidity might corrupt your gold league record Why do people keep saying that P and T need to make more HT/Ghosts lategame? It has been pointed out 200 times why HTs and Ghosts aren't a good response to infestor broodlord. This argument is just zerg players way of justifying their strength. And also, BLord Infestor has been known about for months, it was just never as common because terrans and protosses would always hit timings long before hive tech, meaning that the zerg had to actually invest in army. Now that queens are stupidly strong, particularly against terran, as well as crazy good scouting options, a zerg can rush 13 minute Hive and still be perfectly safe. This just made BLord Infestor a lot easier to reach faster, and thus we see it so much more often. And don't say 'just adapt'. Terran is the only race that has adapted and developed new playstyles since the beta. Every change in zerg playstyles has resulted directly from nerfs/buffs that have made certain styles a lot stronger. Why didn't zergs 'just adapt' to BFH? To Snipe? In the meantime, terran has to deal with ridiculous nerfs that are unwarranted, make current terran styles obselete, and throw winrates down the toilet. MVP discovered hellion banshee into mech after it was made even weaker by the queen buff. Infestor BLord evolved because zerg buffs made it so easy to get to, not because someone was theorycrafting and testing new ideas. | ||
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