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On November 10 2012 03:48 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:39 Forsy wrote:
How about if fungal growth only inhibits the movement of the single unit it targets (or if that's too weak, only a radius of 1 is rooted), it could still keep its 4s (or even have an immediate) for 30/40A damage at the specified radius of 2?
This will allow zerg to keep a decent AoE, without forcing the root on everything. I was thinking about something similar, but like this, it has radius of 1, and after 2 seconds, it spreads to radius of 2 - 2,5(hence the Fungal Growth), it will support micro, and it won't be as nearly as gamebreaking as it is now.
That's an original idea I haven't seen before. Good thinking. The "maximum" radius would probably have to be increased somewhat to offset the nerf I would assume? Maybe not..
Thoughts:
~allows micro to a point.
~can't chain fungal as effectively, because even if you do catch units once, the second fungal won't immediately spread to cover the whole group, which would allow at least part of your force to split
~in some ways, it could be more powerful...much like the way people dodge storms, people would start dodging the fungal "growth" part of the spell. I could see in large clashes, a fungal or two getting tossed down locking down a smallish chunk of the army. A quick reaction would allow the other player to retreat/move away from the growth range to avoid the growth of the spell. This is good, because your whole army doesn't get fungaled, but bad, because you leave behind a small chunk of your army that's going to get insta gibbed by the zerg's main force when you retreat. It would probably take some testing, maybe it would even be beneficial to eat the fungal sometimes if you're in a good concave for the fight? Definitely adds a new dynamic!
Cheers,
Ramone
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On November 10 2012 03:55 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:42 mishimaBeef wrote:
Blizzard either:
A) Knows something we don't in regards to countering infestors. How could they? I laughed so hard at the “working as intended” comment Browder (?) made when asked about the effects of the Queen patch. As if they could have foreseen all the mess it would introduce in the match-up... No, a mere look at the state of the game when it was released shows that they're mostly groping in the dark. It's pointless to assume they have some kind of superior plan and know where they're heading for. The past incoherent patching clearly shows they don't.
well, maybe so but they designed the game... i`m sure they have some idea
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On November 10 2012 03:42 mishimaBeef wrote:
Blizzard either:
A) Knows something we don't in regards to countering infestors.
B) Knows something is wrong with infestor and will be changing it as soon as the time is right (after major tournaments that are coming up).
C) A combination of A and B
D) Has no clue and is just giving general "wait and see" speeches (while hoping for a new imbalanced thing to show up so they can say "See? Told you so it wasnt OP!"
E) Knows the REAL issues but is too scared to tackle them because it would mean "losing face" by admitting that their shiny "improvements" of unlimited unit selection and tight perfect movement and asymmetric production speed boosts for the races are actually terrible and cause more problems than they are worth.
My vote is for D or E ... sadly.
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you are stupid if you think blizzard would make a game today without unlimited unit selection and good movement...
do you know how other people in the industry will laugh at them?
they care more about their industry than our community BY THE WAY
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On November 10 2012 04:09 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:55 TheDwf wrote:On November 10 2012 03:42 mishimaBeef wrote:
Blizzard either:
A) Knows something we don't in regards to countering infestors. How could they? I laughed so hard at the “working as intended” comment Browder (?) made when asked about the effects of the Queen patch. As if they could have foreseen all the mess it would introduce in the match-up... No, a mere look at the state of the game when it was released shows that they're mostly groping in the dark. It's pointless to assume they have some kind of superior plan and know where they're heading for. The past incoherent patching clearly shows they don't. well, maybe so but they designed the game... i`m sure they have some idea
Yes, they designed the game. A game in which Roach was initially 1 supply, a game in which you could once warp Storms, a game in which having 4 BFHs in your mineral line instantly meant -20 workers, a game in which PvP was originally nothing but a 4 gate fest, etc., etc. Back then they didn't have any more hidden plan than now, they made things, saw how they went and tried to rectify if something was wrong. But they still do a lot of mistakes, and some of them could have been prevented simply by listening to sensible feedback. Yet to actually listen you have not to be stubborn, and seeing a Blizzard guy calmly stating that “BL/Infestor is not a big deal” (or something like that) just says everything about their awareness of the game's current problems.
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Northern Ireland23783 Posts
Ok back to the topic at hand, in terms of nerfage, I'm really in favour of a soft approach, at least initially. If that doesn't work have another go at tweaking something else
The two ideas that would maintain the infestors usefulness, but make it slightly less massable, when combined for me would be thus;
1. Keep fungal as it is, but remove the ridiculous cancelling effect it has on commands. For example, I blink forward to try and snipe some broods, get fungalled. I demand my stalkers blink back, but they get fungalled again and this order is cancelled. I thus have to spend a good chunk of time sitting spamming blink to move back, or even just move command, and hope they don't chain another fungal to salvage anything. This is just silly to me, I should be able to shift-queue commands and go back to microing or macroing elsewhere. It's the same with medivacs, when caught with fungal, I should be able to just order them to move back home or whatever, instead of having to continually spam move commands in the hope they miss a fungal.
2. 3 supply infestor, seems reasonable as a way to keep them good at holding Protoss allins, especially gateway ones, but making a Zerg max deathball slightly less ridiculous. Also makes it slightly less likely to see really high infestor counts winning games on their own, it's pretty rare but mostly silly when it happens. Leenock's sick burrow/fungal combo vs DRG that one time was a really cool play and the kind of nice useage people like to see. 25+ infestors lategame dealing with Protoss lategame armies almost by themselves are the kind of thing we don't want to see, by and large.
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Complete agree with the comment about the problem being infested terrans. It really is. The cost is goofy. Even if 20 infestors average 100 energy, thats 80 infested terrans. Infested terrans coupled with broodlings is, its kind of silly. I can appreciate not jumping the gun in favor of waiting things out to balance something, but I disagree with that assessment in this case. I think one can use his reasoning to see why infestors present a long-term problem if they remain the way they are. I say this with absolutely no disrespect to zerg players of any calibur, but seeing another zerg win a hard earned late game match with BL/Infestor unit comp, with a 6k bank. . Theres something wrong with that. I think changing the infested terran cost changes everything in a way that doesn't wreck the swarmy vision Blizz has for zerg. Give zerg a reason to spend money. Making 2000 spines because your army costs virtually nothing to maintain lategame isn't a reason to spend money. . If your being cost effective because you're micro is insane, great. Im okay with that. As it stands, its just, silly. Anyways thats not really a rant against zerg or zerg players. I just hope Blizz seriously tweaks the infestor a bit.
Also, I think Infestor could take a small nerf though, nothing big or gamebreaking. The community has a tendancy to take it to a 10 when its really like, a 4. Really, the infestor isn't THAT broken. It's the infestor plus other units that makes it such a problem. Its really a small tweak that needs to be made and not a fundamental redesign.
A side effect of this mess is that I have grown to love DRG alot more lately 
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On November 10 2012 05:29 Channel Pressure wrote:Complete agree with the comment about the problem being infested terrans. It really is. The cost is goofy. Even if 20 infestors average 100 energy, thats 80 infested terrans. Infested terrans coupled with broodlings is, its kind of silly. I can appreciate not jumping the gun in favor of waiting things out to balance something, but I disagree with that assessment in this case. I think one can use his reasoning to see why infestors present a long-term problem if they remain the way they are. I say this with absolutely no disrespect to zerg players of any calibur, but seeing another zerg win a hard earned late game match with BL/Infestor unit comp, with a 6k bank. . Theres something wrong with that. I think changing the infested terran cost changes everything in a way that doesn't wreck the swarmy vision Blizz has for zerg. Give zerg a reason to spend money. Making 2000 spines because your army costs virtually nothing to maintain lategame isn't a reason to spend money. . If your being cost effective because you're micro is insane, great. Im okay with that. As it stands, its just, silly. Anyways thats not really a rant against zerg or zerg players. I just hope Blizz seriously tweaks the infestor a bit. A side effect of this mess is that I have grown to love DRG alot more lately
go join his fan club
<3
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On November 10 2012 05:10 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ok back to the topic at hand, in terms of nerfage, I'm really in favour of a soft approach, at least initially. If that doesn't work have another go at tweaking something else
The two ideas that would maintain the infestors usefulness, but make it slightly less massable, when combined for me would be thus;
1. Keep fungal as it is, but remove the ridiculous cancelling effect it has on commands. For example, I blink forward to try and snipe some broods, get fungalled. I demand my stalkers blink back, but they get fungalled again and this order is cancelled. I thus have to spend a good chunk of time sitting spamming blink to move back, or even just move command, and hope they don't chain another fungal to salvage anything. This is just silly to me, I should be able to shift-queue commands and go back to microing or macroing elsewhere. It's the same with medivacs, when caught with fungal, I should be able to just order them to move back home or whatever, instead of having to continually spam move commands in the hope they miss a fungal.
2. 3 supply infestor, seems reasonable as a way to keep them good at holding Protoss allins, especially gateway ones, but making a Zerg max deathball slightly less ridiculous. Also makes it slightly less likely to see really high infestor counts winning games on their own, it's pretty rare but mostly silly when it happens. Leenock's sick burrow/fungal combo vs DRG that one time was a really cool play and the kind of nice useage people like to see. 25+ infestors lategame dealing with Protoss lategame armies almost by themselves are the kind of thing we don't want to see, by and large.
1. Yep ... Fungal desperately needs to be changed, because there is nothing to be done once your important units are "caught" and the range is really HUGE (compared to things like autoturret and Seeker Missile from the Raven which both have a range of 6). One way of lessening the impact of Fungal could be a change to the movement mechanic which forces units to spread out instead of clump up. That way there would be less targets and you could just make air units immune to the spell altogether (there is still the Infested Terran as AA defense) and have it become a relatively fair spell. Fiddling around with the range of it might also be an option to add more risk to the Infestor.
2. An increase in supply wont really change the fact that the Infestor adds an insane amount of very powerful and free (apart from 25 energy) units which dont require any resources to reproduce. Infested Terran is the second spell of the Infestor which desperately needs to be changed just as well as Fungal. It is a seriously bad joke that the race which is supposed to be reproducing its units constantly has an insane amount of free unit generators. That really was one of the terrible ideas of the devs.
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It's funny, because many protoss will tell you the problem are infested terrans. And many terran will tell you the problem is fungal.
You see, the problem is both and none of them. The problem is how versatile the infestor is. It's all rounder, a jack of all trades, that's the problem with the infestor. It softcounter and hardcounter most stuff in the game.
Fungal growth
Long cast range.
Instant, no travel time.
Good AoE damage, good against blobs.
Root to stop enemy play, which works to connect banelings, protect other units, good to hold drops and air harassment.
Anti air / Anti ground.
Infested terrans
Long cast range
No supply cost, low energy cost.
Good DPS vs Air and Ground at low energy cost.
Upgrades improve them.
Low movement speed, still, it synergizes effectively with fungal.
Good at harassing.
Neural parasite :
Long cast range
Effectively counters massive units aside Ultralisk. Even mothership.
Burrow
Gives them an escape mechanism paired with their decent movement speed. That means, while ghosts and HT's are normally traded to do their work, infestors are not, so investing on them is more cost efficient.
Open options to be able to harass with IT's
From a game designer stand point, the unit is crazy by it's own.
Propossal ?
Keep 100 mineral cost for hidras.
Decrease 25 gas cost of hidras.
Give them an upgrade to be faster out of creep. And by fast, i mean almost as fast as roaches.
No range upgrade needed, they get it by default.
Infestor
Decrease fungal parasite damage to 10(20) or even remove it entirely. It's not about damaging, but making easier for your units to connect or get combat advantadge.
Increase IT energy cost to 50. IT's should be a choice you make not a 2 fungals lolol 40 eggs "surprise muthafackah".
Remove Neural parasite.
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On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors?
Except that infestors and Templar are good vs multiple units.... building ghost in TvZ is simple to counter one unit... it has no other viable role once infestor are gone
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On November 10 2012 05:47 Godwrath wrote:
It's funny, because many protoss will tell you the problem are infested terrans. And many terran will tell you the problem is fungal.
You see, the problem is both and none of them. The problem is how versatile the infestor is. It's all rounder, a jack of all trades, that's the problem with the infestor. It softcounter and hardcounter most stuff in the game.
Fungal growth
Long cast range.
Instant, no travel time.
Good AoE damage, good against blobs.
Root to stop enemy play, which works to connect banelings, protect other units, good to hold drops and air harassment.
Anti air / Anti ground.
Infested terrans
Long cast range
No supply cost, low energy cost.
Good DPS vs Air and Ground at low energy cost.
Upgrades improve them.
Low movement speed, still, it synergizes effectively with fungal.
Good at harassing.
Neural parasite :
Long cast range
Effectively counters massive units aside Ultralisk. Even mothership.
Burrow
Gives them an escape mechanism paired with their decent movement speed. That means, while ghosts and HT's are normally traded to do their work, infestors are not, so investing on them is more cost efficient.
Open options to be able to harass with IT's
From a game designer stand point, the unit is crazy by it's own.
Propossal ?
Keep 100 mineral cost for hidras.
Decrease 25 gas cost of hidras.
Give them an upgrade to be faster out of creep. And by fast, i mean almost as fast as roaches.
No range upgrade needed, they get it by default.
Infestor
Decrease fungal parasite damage to 10(20) or even remove it entirely. It's not about damaging, but making easier for your units to connect or get combat advantadge.
Increase IT energy cost to 50. IT's should be a choice you make not a 2 fungals lolol 40 eggs "surprise muthafackah".
Remove Neural parasite.
Were Hidras a scrapped HOTS unit?. . . and Fungal Parasite eh? When did they get that spell?
(teasing you of course, i know what you ment)
As an aside, Fungal Growth imo isn't broken. Zerg really does need it against terran. I cringe to see bio go crazy against zerg as that is usually the time terran would have a good, even-handed response to much of what zerg throws at him, in the absence of a rooting fungal growth. And its pretty fair as it stands.
I've seen DRG handle himself without fungal, but that doesn't mean fungal shouldnt be around. It adds a different dynamic to that matchup.
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On November 10 2012 05:48 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors? Except that infestors and Templar are good vs multiple units.... building ghost in TvZ is simple to counter one unit...
And it doesn't even fulfill this role. The main use for Ghosts nowadays in TvZ is nuke harass. You can only carpet EMP or Snipe Infestors if your opponent is horrible enough not to make any Overseer.
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On November 10 2012 05:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:48 NKexquisite wrote:On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors? Except that infestors and Templar are good vs multiple units.... building ghost in TvZ is simple to counter one unit... And it doesn't even fulfill this role. The main use for Ghosts nowadays in TvZ is nuke harass. You can only carpet EMP or Snipe Infestors if your opponent is horrible enough not to make any Overseer.
Doesn't even need Overseers tbh, 1-2 lucky fungals (esp for progamers who can see the ripple) and the BLs shred your ghosts.
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As an aside, Fungal Growth imo isn't broken. Zerg really does need it against terran. I cringe to see bio go crazy against zerg as that is usually the time terran would have a good, even-handed response to much of what zerg throws at him, in the absence of a rooting fungal growth. And its pretty fair as it stands.
I find the damage to be the most problematic with the spell. Your banelings can still connect, and your corruptors should have an easier time cleaning vikings supported by IT's that way. The damage from fungal makes it a multipurpose spell, allowing infestors to be a more jack of all trades instead of a support caster.
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On November 10 2012 05:57 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +As an aside, Fungal Growth imo isn't broken. Zerg really does need it against terran. I cringe to see bio go crazy against zerg as that is usually the time terran would have a good, even-handed response to much of what zerg throws at him, in the absence of a rooting fungal growth. And its pretty fair as it stands.
I find the damage to be the most problematic with the spell. Your banelings can still connect, and your corruptors should have an easier time cleaning vikings supported by IT's that way. The damage from fungal makes it a multipurpose spell, allowing infestors to be a more jack of all trades instead of a support caster.
Well. . i'm not sure if the infestor needs to fit the "support caster" cookie cutout. Fungal growth presents a unique problem for players that I don't believe is cumbersome to the point of significant balance issues. As it stands the cost of fungal growth negates in my opinion other issues with fungal growth (that are really just me saying, it sucks to get FG'ed ). Zerg really does need both the root and the damage of fg as it stands. Some protoss builds would be unmanagable by zerg if they didnt have a good response, like that of fungal growth.
Ide cite as evidence the extreme problems zerg can have if you hit with some kind of blink timing right before infestors. FG can be the difference between a win and a loss, depending on the map terrain. And thats good
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I had an original intent for posting on this forum, but after reading (most of) this thread something else has come to my attention.
Originally I wanted to ask why pro level Terrans no longer use EMP to deal with Infestors?
Changes in the meta game seem to happen so quickly, and those changes are definitely visible in professional play styles, strategies, and mechanics. I realize when snipe was nerfed people by and large stopped using Ghosts. Now that Ghosts are out of the meta, I can't convey how often I watch Zerg players sit with their Infestors in a tight, exposed pack, away from any detection. With that meta shift, why not bring Ghosts back into play? Pow pow... quick 2 EMPs before an attack.
Having said that I realize there must be some reason, a very good reason, professionals aren't doing so. I just wanted to hear the community's opinions on what they think that reason may be.
I've seen some very intelligent, well thought and educated points and opinions on Infestors here!! (for whatever that's worth coming from a newb). In my humble opinion all of these points are completely correct in content. Perhaps a slight shift in viewing paradigm could be revealing?
It seems to me that all the complains about Infestors are, while correct and worthy of note, not actually themselves the problems; rather, they are symptoms of a larger, singular problem. That problem kinda piggy-backs on the points above I've read stating that they have too many uses. The true issue with infestors is that they are entirely reactive in nature.
The Zerg player utilizing Infestors has no offensive initiative whatsoever; they need only not make a mistake in order to win. To EMP, snipe, or feedback Infestors requires your attention, APM, and accurate micro. If you make a mistake in doing so, the Zerg player comes out on top. And why does he come out on top? Not because he took the offensive initiative and succeeded, but because his opponent - taking the offensive initiative because he must - made a mistake in doing so.
Same goes for fanning your units as you attack into the Zerg. Does the Zerg player need to worry about fanning his units? Nope, worst case scenario he must fall back and force you to re-fan. Eventually you make a mistake in doing so, your units clump, and get fungaled. But if the non-Zerg player does not take offensive initiative, eventually an end-game army marches across the map to destroy him. During such an attack the Zerg player must only keep his Infestors behind his main attack line, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake. Meanwhile his opponent's APM must be thrice the Zerg player's to ensure proper attack formation.
What needs to be changed about the Infestor is that they must require some offensive initiative. What is imbalanced about the Zerg race right now is that - assuming all other factors equal; each player is equally skilled in strategy, macro, micro, mechanics, etc. etc. - the Zerg player will always win due to never having to take initiative. As long as that holds true, the game will be forever broken.
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you guys crying about infestors... watch Lucifron vs Stephano (LIVE) @ Stim to the Win .. all i can say now to you ragekids and flamers L2P!
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Infestor needs a dramatic nerf, but the shit people are proposing in this topic is ridiculous. Just read someone who proposed eliminating fungal damage, removing NP, and making IT cost 50 energy. Retarded suggestions like this is probably what makes Blizzard think the community is so volatile and emotionally invested.
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On November 10 2012 06:21 ognennyy wrote:
I had an original intent for posting on this forum, but after reading (most of) this thread something else has come to my attention.
Originally I wanted to ask why pro level Terrans no longer use EMP to deal with Infestors?
Changes in the meta game seem to happen so quickly, and those changes are definitely visible in professional play styles, strategies, and mechanics. I realize when snipe was nerfed people by and large stopped using Ghosts. Now that Ghosts are out of the meta, I can't convey how often I watch Zerg players sit with their Infestors in a tight, exposed pack, away from any detection. With that meta shift, why not bring Ghosts back into play? Pow pow... quick 2 EMPs before an attack.
Having said that I realize there must be some reason, a very good reason, professionals aren't doing so. I just wanted to hear the community's opinions on what they think that reason may be.
I've seen some very intelligent, well thought and educated points and opinions on Infestors here!! (for whatever that's worth coming from a newb). In my humble opinion all of these points are completely correct in content. Perhaps a slight shift in viewing paradigm could be revealing?
It seems to me that all the complains about Infestors are, while correct and worthy of note, not actually themselves the problems; rather, they are symptoms of a larger, singular problem. That problem kinda piggy-backs on the points above I've read stating that they have too many uses. The true issue with infestors is that they are entirely reactive in nature.
The Zerg player utilizing Infestors has no offensive initiative whatsoever; they need only not make a mistake in order to win. To EMP, snipe, or feedback Infestors requires your attention, APM, and accurate micro. If you make a mistake in doing so, the Zerg player comes out on top. And why does he come out on top? Not because he took the offensive initiative and succeeded, but because his opponent - taking the offensive initiative because he must - made a mistake in doing so.
Same goes for fanning your units as you attack into the Zerg. Does the Zerg player need to worry about fanning his units? Nope, worst case scenario he must fall back and force you to re-fan. Eventually you make a mistake in doing so, your units clump, and get fungaled. But if the non-Zerg player does not take offensive initiative, eventually an end-game army marches across the map to destroy him. During such an attack the Zerg player must only keep his Infestors behind his main attack line, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake. Meanwhile his opponent's APM must be thrice the Zerg player's to ensure proper attack formation.
What needs to be changed about the Infestor is that they must require some offensive initiative. What is imbalanced about the Zerg race right now is that - assuming all other factors equal; each player is equally skilled in strategy, macro, micro, mechanics, etc. etc. - the Zerg player will always win due to never having to take initiative. As long as that holds true, the game will be forever broken.
I've been curious as to why terrans don't use EMP against infestors either. I've heard some of the reasons but, I duno, I really think someone at a high level ought to try it out. Actually, MVP_Keen did this week. He didnt have a ton of ghosts or army period for that matter, but he showed a willingness to emp. It was successful too. I wonder if he was hoping to do more with that? I hope so.
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EPT
