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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 09 2012 23:36 BoggieMan wrote: lol... its not like heavy infestor usage is something new. It is not just the infestor usage. It is the fact that zergs have a much easier time teching to infestors. The timing windows to hit pre infestors which existed before just isn't there. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8165 Posts
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check! Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. You forgot detection. They really are way too versatile, units shouldn't always be effective. | ||
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CYFAWS
Sweden275 Posts
i clearly remember me whining about infestors non stop since the fungal patch... | ||
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ES.Genie
Germany1370 Posts
On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check! Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. Yeah, I don't like to balance-whine, but the Infestor is just a terribly designed unit, overpowered or not. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On November 09 2012 16:45 KapsyL wrote: just wait for heart of the swarm.. Sure can't wait to play new TvZ where Zerg get to blind my units on top of fungal while attacking me with brood lords and ground brood lords with super broodlings and all I get is a 2 supply mine. | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check! Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. Because they are slow at defending against drops. Because the timing for hitting before Pathogen Glans is finished is obvious and easy. Because if they are rushing for infestors than their only real unit for defending is primarily zerglings | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check! Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. infestors also have soft counters (small unit groups to snipe them with stim/blink, Long-ranged AoE units (Tanks, Colossi)) and hard counters (HT feedback, Ghosts). Seriously, it is pityful to see how many Pros do not build those counters against infestor heavy play (5+ infestors). It is like watching a PvT where the Protoss never gets a Support Bay and goes for mass HT with storm, but the Terran refuses to stop producing Vikings, and never goes for Ghosts. HT can harass, shut down drops hard, and melt your army with one good Storm. OP? Not so much, as it is more obvious to people to actually counter those units. Whereas in XvZ, people complain about mass Infestor, but never actually try to counter them in any way. You do not need mass Carrier + Mothership to beat Infestor/BL. Just feedback the infestors, and win with pretty much anything you want to. Same goes for Terrans, who stopped building Ghosts since they don't counter BL/Ultra hard anymore. Yet EMP or Snipe can straight up win you the game vs Infestor/BL. Can't win with two base pushes because your sentries get fungaled? Well, this is the same ignorance as a Zerg complaining not being able to break a two base Protoss with a two base Roach Hydra timing push (who does those anyways? Not the point though, lol) when the Protoss gets fast Colossi with range out. You are not supposed to. Go tech to the counter-unit instead of wasting your units. On November 10 2012 00:04 forsooth wrote: Sure can't wait to play new TvZ where Zerg get to blind my units on top of fungal while attacking me with brood lords and ground brood lords with super broodlings and all I get is a 2 supply mine. that 2 supply mine denies the only other viable option to infestors: the mutalisk. Can't do much when being FORCED to use infestors or die. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On November 09 2012 19:50 nanaoei wrote: and they'd continue to like and play only those matchups until they grow bored of them or until something changes in the popular strategies. casual players need GREAT custom maps. well i for one don't bother with ladder anymore because i don't feel like playing mirror matchups, should i just leave when i get a mirror? | ||
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Excludos
Norway8165 Posts
On November 10 2012 00:04 Butterednuts wrote: Because they are slow at defending against drops. Because the timing for hitting before Pathogen Glans is finished is obvious and easy. Because if they are rushing for infestors than their only real unit for defending is primarily zerglings Obviously you cant rush for infestors and skip everything else. But there is no reason in any game to not build infestors. They do everything. They are not bad at anything. The opponent is going for an allin! Get some infestors. The opponent is building banshees! get some infestors. The opponent is going for normal army composition? Only build infestors. The opponent is going dark templars? Guess what, infestors. Its a retarded unit. Along side Sentries as the two worst units in this game, on my list anyways. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 10 2012 00:08 Cirqueenflex wrote: infestors also have soft counters (small unit groups to snipe them with stim/blink, Long-ranged AoE units (Tanks, Colossi)) and hard counters (HT feedback, Ghosts). Seriously, it is pityful to see how many Pros do not build those counters against infestor heavy play (5+ infestors). It is like watching a PvT where the Protoss never gets a Support Bay and goes for mass HT with storm, but the Terran refuses to stop producing Vikings, and never goes for Ghosts. HT can harass, shut down drops hard, and melt your army with one good Storm. OP? Not so much, as it is more obvious to people to actually counter those units. Whereas in XvZ, people complain about mass Infestor, but never actually try to counter them in any way. You do not need mass Carrier + Mothership to beat Infestor/BL. Just feedback the infestors, and win with pretty much anything you want to. Same goes for Terrans, who stopped building Ghosts since they don't counter BL/Ultra hard anymore. Yet EMP or Snipe can straight up win you the game vs Infestor/BL. Can't win with two base pushes because your sentries get fungaled? Well, this is the same ignorance as a Zerg complaining not being able to break a two base Protoss with a two base Roach Hydra timing push (who does those anyways? Not the point though, lol) when the Protoss gets fast Colossi with range out. You are not supposed to. Go tech to the counter-unit instead of wasting your units. HTs and ghosts are counters if Zerg doesn't have other units with their infestors. Not sure how your ghosts and HTs can get close if they have BLs positioned slightly ahead of them. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
On November 10 2012 00:12 vthree wrote: HTs and ghosts are counters if Zerg doesn't have other units with their infestors. Not sure how your ghosts and HTs can get close if they have BLs positioned slightly ahead of them. infestors don't have infinite range. They HAVE to go to the front line to get fungals on Vikings and Stalkers before they blink, and also to avoid the Vortex. If Protoss is allowed to freely blink directly under the BL and focus them Zerg will in most cases still lose the fight. It is really only the fungals onto the Protoss army when it is out of range for attacking BLs that kills it. Which requires Infestors to run up in front of the BLs. Also, as soon as you decide to engage, you can even walk by with HTs most of the time and pop all Infestors when they just fungaled once onto your army. BLs are poor in direct combat (when they get hit back, because they have so few hp compared to cost), and abysmal damage when there are enough Colossi to instantly sweep away the Broodlings. If there are no infestors ahead of the BLs, you are not supposed to run in single HTs on feedback attempts, but to engage with the full army (and feedback while sniping BLs). If there are infestors ahead, feedback first. | ||
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thehepp
United States67 Posts
On November 09 2012 23:44 Wombat_NI wrote: No they aren't though. The amount of pro zergs who have terrible engagements frequently is pretty high. Remember when any Zerg making ultras lost the game? The difference in engagement micro between the average Korean Terran and the average Korean Zerg is huge. Players like Leenock, DRG and Life who have good micro did well, or would do well regardless of the infestor. Sadly they get targetted unfairly with the pathzerg taunts Were not saying that those players don't deserve to win, they just have the best examples (because they are so good) of the infestor being fucking retarded. | ||
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GhostNova
Germany42 Posts
On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check! Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. Pretty much this and it shows clearly why Distin Browder and DK are horrible at their job also. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On November 10 2012 01:00 GhostNova wrote: Pretty much this and it shows clearly why Distin Browder and DK are horrible at their job also. It's the fact that you always see them en masse. 15-20 infestors. When do you ever see that many ht's or ghosts? Never. The fact that infestors alone can kill an entire 200 supply army with ease is the issue, and will never be fixed. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
On November 10 2012 00:34 Cirqueenflex wrote: infestors don't have infinite range. They HAVE to go to the front line to get fungals on Vikings and Stalkers before they blink, and also to avoid the Vortex. If Protoss is allowed to freely blink directly under the BL and focus them Zerg will in most cases still lose the fight. It is really only the fungals onto the Protoss army when it is out of range for attacking BLs that kills it. Which requires Infestors to run up in front of the BLs. Also, as soon as you decide to engage, you can even walk by with HTs most of the time and pop all Infestors when they just fungaled once onto your army. BLs are poor in direct combat (when they get hit back, because they have so few hp compared to cost), and abysmal damage when there are enough Colossi to instantly sweep away the Broodlings. If there are no infestors ahead of the BLs, you are not supposed to run in single HTs on feedback attempts, but to engage with the full army (and feedback while sniping BLs). If there are infestors ahead, feedback first. You are just one of those Zerg that think you have great skills after winning a battle with your OP iMbafestors and gg lords. Do you know the difference between range of fungals and feedback? The range of BL? There are no hard counters to Infestors. They are currently the best casters and when you get a lot of them, unstoppable. | ||
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DwmC_Foefen
Belgium2186 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 10 2012 00:08 Cirqueenflex wrote: that 2 supply mine denies the only other viable option to infestors: the mutalisk. Can't do much when being FORCED to use infestors or die. Not sure if serious? If terrans know you go infestors, then there is still no real counter build. You act like there is.. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On November 10 2012 00:04 forsooth wrote: Sure can't wait to play new TvZ where Zerg get to blind my units on top of fungal while attacking me with brood lords and ground brood lords with super broodlings and all I get is a 2 supply mine. don't forget that they still have infestors in HotS On November 10 2012 00:34 Cirqueenflex wrote: infestors don't have infinite range. They HAVE to go to the front line to get fungals on Vikings and Stalkers before they blink, and also to avoid the Vortex. If Protoss is allowed to freely blink directly under the BL and focus them Zerg will in most cases still lose the fight. It is really only the fungals onto the Protoss army when it is out of range for attacking BLs that kills it. Which requires Infestors to run up in front of the BLs. Also, as soon as you decide to engage, you can even walk by with HTs most of the time and pop all Infestors when they just fungaled once onto your army. BLs are poor in direct combat (when they get hit back, because they have so few hp compared to cost), and abysmal damage when there are enough Colossi to instantly sweep away the Broodlings. If there are no infestors ahead of the BLs, you are not supposed to run in single HTs on feedback attempts, but to engage with the full army (and feedback while sniping BLs). If there are infestors ahead, feedback first. now if you actually thought of how to use the BL and spines you won't have a problem | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 10 2012 00:04 Butterednuts wrote: Because they are slow at defending against drops. Wrong. Infestors have 2.925 movement speed on creep which is quite fast if for some reason you absolutely need to go somewhere around your bases with them to defend drops (don't see why since you already have 6.11 ms Speedlings and Spines/Spores, but eh...). On November 10 2012 00:04 Butterednuts wrote: Because the timing for hitting before Pathogen Glans is finished is obvious and easy. Oh really? Is there a Nydus-like sound when a Zerg player starts upgrading Pathogen Glands? On November 10 2012 00:04 Butterednuts wrote: Because if they are rushing for infestors than their only real unit for defending is primarily zerglings Wrong. Zergs can use any combination of Zerglings, Banelings (ZvT) and Roaches to defend while waiting their tier2 tech—not to mention Queens in ZvT, and of course semi-static defence. Besides, builds like 2-bases Infestors are still not really the norm, so the problem is not that Zergs “rush” to Infestors. | ||
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