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Femari
United States2900 Posts
On November 11 2012 00:28 Fr0d0 wrote: Yo, check out last MLG, you. You gonna see vsZ mass blink stalkers from Rain and mass marines from Flash yo. Notice how they lost. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
He never claimed that they won by massing, he claimed that people still do it, your argument is irrelevant. | ||
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Fr0d0
Belize37 Posts
I did. I can remind you how it was. Rain forgot 2 observers in the middle of nowhere and lost to burrow. Flash had 1 bunker at wide open wall with 3 bases(no planetaries no additional bunker at 3rd) and lost to runby 3 games in a row. They lost only to 1st, 2nd players at the tournament and won against all other zergs. C'mon guys, pull your heads out of your arses already. Why the heck if Life donated first 7 infestors to Flash by a-moving them into terran's army he deserves to lose, but at same time T/P deserve to win by making numerous mistakes ? | ||
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gulden
Germany205 Posts
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
Donating 7 infestors obviously makes them deserve to lose. If T/P simply clumps his army up by accident, for one moment, he's screwed. Utterly screwed. The magnitude of the mistakes don't even begin to compare. You've got to be biased to not see that. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HRCPM.png) | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
On November 11 2012 13:56 SirPinky wrote: I think this image should say enough at a week before the end of last season. Dustin, please dont waste our time and speak political nonesense. Go run for President Well when Idra who would be lucky to be in the top 300 players in Korea is ranked #5 on the NA server you know you can take the whole chart for less than a grain of salt. Lets link the Korean charts and see how that goes. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On November 11 2012 14:20 Figgy wrote: Well when Idra who would be lucky to be in the top 300 players in Korea is ranked #5 on the NA server you know you can take the whole chart for less than a grain of salt. Lets link the Korean charts and see how that goes. Zergs are #1 in representation in all regions last I heard. And you can't discredit NA, that's like saying Terran is balanced around top tier Korean players while Zerg is balanced for everyone. | ||
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
On November 11 2012 14:20 Figgy wrote: Well when Idra who would be lucky to be in the top 300 players in Korea is ranked #5 on the NA server you know you can take the whole chart for less than a grain of salt. Lets link the Korean charts and see how that goes. 9Zerg, 2 terran, 5 protoss for last season's GM at end of season for KR/TW http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/3538875/1/llllllllllll/ladder/lastseason/leagues Keeping in mind top 16 obviously doesn't show much of a picture compared to top 50 for example or tournament wins. For KR/TW top 50 at end of last season + Show Spoiler + this includes top 16..obviously *Edit* and for fun and more info, Europe's top 16 and top 50. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3092702/1/ATǂSage/ladder/lastseason/leagues Top 16 GM last season EU we have: 10 zerg, 4 terran, 2 protoss. Top 50 GM last season EU+ Show Spoiler + including top 16...obviously Europe hates protoss... T.T lol! Finally for top 16 and top 50 NA GM last season in numbers: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3805717/1/ROOToD/ladder/lastseason/leagues Top 16, as linked by guy I quoted: 11 zerg, 3 terran, 2 protoss. Top 50 NA GM last season: 25 zerg, 13 terran, 12 protoss. *Edit again...Put up last season's EU GM instead of this season's x.x;;* | ||
Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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19Nov1980
Dominican Republic31 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381312 | ||
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nt-rAven
Canada405 Posts
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
On November 11 2012 14:30 Chylith wrote: 9Zerg, 2 terran, 5 protoss for last season's GM at end of season for KR/TW http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/3538875/1/llllllllllll/ladder/lastseason/leagues Keeping in mind top 16 obviously doesn't show much of a picture compared to top 50 for example or tournament wins. For KR/TW top 50 at end of last season + Show Spoiler + this includes top 16..obviously *Edit* and for fun and more info, Europe's top 16 and top 50. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3092702/1/ATǂSage/ladder/lastseason/leagues Top 16 GM last season EU we have: 10 zerg, 4 terran, 2 protoss. Top 50 GM last season EU+ Show Spoiler + including top 16...obviously Europe hates protoss... T.T lol! Finally for top 16 and top 50 NA GM last season in numbers: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3805717/1/ROOToD/ladder/lastseason/leagues Top 16, as linked by guy I quoted: 11 zerg, 3 terran, 2 protoss. Top 50 NA GM last season: 25 zerg, 13 terran, 12 protoss. *Edit again...Put up last season's EU GM instead of this season's x.x;;* Because I REALLY Don't want to edit this for the 6th time and would like to keep it at least somewhat clear.. I'd like to add that Korea's GM ladder seems to be the most competitive in terms of being "full" having 200 of 200 in GM at the end of the season compared to 199/200 for NA GM and 195/200 for EU GM. NA is the highest in terms of "Point value" at 1854 for rank 1 and 1475 for rank 16. EU comes second with 1754 at rank 1 and 1552 at rank 16. KR/TW third with 1599 at rank 1 and 1403 at rank 16. Scaling below top 50 EU, NA, and KR/TW become fairly tied in points, averaging 1200-1400 for NA, 1300-1400 for EU and 1200-1400 for KR/TW between ranks 50 and 17. In terms of Ladder games played per season between the three servers it obviously greatly varies. However in the top 16 about 6 of 16 players in KR and NA both have over 200 games Won, EU has 7 of 16 players with over 200 games Won. The absolute minimum number of games won by any player in the top 16 is 100 on KR, by megumixbear. The absolute maximum number of games won by any player in the top 16 is 524 on EU, by EmpireKas. + Show Spoiler + Now who's really surprised by that one, haha. ;p Kas you ladder monster. For that final tidbit of info I used games won rather than games played because 1: I'm too lazy to do the math on 48 separate players >_>; and 2: Most of the players in the top 16 on their respective servers have fairly equal win/loss rates relative to each other. The three big exceptions being SsonLight, EmpireKas and EGIdra. All of whom have more games played than most other people in the top 16. I dunno if this info is of any use or really proves anything one way or another, I just hope it's of interest to some of you. I for one found it to be fairly interesting. *Edited to correct spelling and add spaces and stuff...T.T + Show Spoiler + Why does my stuff never turn out nicely without an edit...? | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On November 11 2012 14:43 19Nov1980 wrote: Flying, san, and JangBi complaining about zerg (im)balance. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381312 I'm going to quote the relevant parts for those who can't be bothered looking through: You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ. Flying: Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult. There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this? Jangbi: To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply. What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals? San: It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so. Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder! | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
There seems to be two issues with the infestor as well; the balance aspect and the game design aspect. I think that it may be a bit too much to expect blizzard to redesign the infestor just for WoL before HotS is released. Just in case people will misread what I'm saying, I am NOT saying that the infestor is balanced or designed well, I'm just saying that some people could do well to consider the difficulty of balancing and redesigning such a thing. | ||
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Aetherial
Australia917 Posts
On November 11 2012 15:16 tomatriedes wrote: I'm going to quote the relevant parts for those who can't be bothered looking through: Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder! Post this on the HotS beta forum someone! | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1126 Posts
On November 11 2012 15:35 734pot wrote: The infestor is a very difficult thing to balance, as it is the backbone of the entire Zerg arsenal. Right, but in HoTS we have a Hive tech spell caster that doesn't do any direct damage but certainly helps with positional play. With all the new toys Zerg is getting, it just might be safe to de-emphasize the infestor a bit. It can leave its position as backbone and become a regular ol' supporting spell caster unit, which I thought was the whole reason for a number of nerfs when Destiny came on the scene. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On November 11 2012 15:39 Aetherial wrote: Post this on the HotS beta forum someone! Eh, other pros have said that over the last few months as well. Blizzard really doesn't care unfortunately :/ | ||
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
On November 11 2012 15:16 tomatriedes wrote: I'm going to quote the relevant parts for those who can't be bothered looking through: Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder! Note: Most of this post is in spoilers due to the massive length of everything I've either quoted or had to write, sorry if it's a tad hard to read due to that. I'm going to add a few quotes from that series of interviews that say something to the same effect, It should be noted that the quote belonging to TSL_Center isn't as directly saying he believes zerg is OP/too strong, however it's very heavily implying it. I'd also like to preface these quotes by noting that, although this is not necessarily the case, both the translators for these players and the players themselves can and might be heavily biased due to playing a race other than zerg or in the case of the translators preferring a race other than zerg and I myself certainly believe that zerg is too strong right now or at least very "broken" in how it plays mostly due to how infestors currently work. Quotes from the afformentioned interviews, with all credits belonging to ThisIsGame: Jjaki:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: Have you always had trouble against Zerg? NSH_jjakji: Zerg is far too strong. If two players of a similar skill level face each other, as long as neither of them make mistakes, the Zerg will be at a substantial advantage. TSL_Center:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: Many of the players living alongside the TSL Zerg aces have appeared to be downtrodden. How do you feel personally? TSL_Center: I don't have any big problems myself. There are four players among the Zergs on our team who are particularly good. If you can just keep up a 50% win rate against those hyungs during practice, you begin to develop confidence that you won't lose. You don't feel crushed when you lose, and you become more confident whenever you win a game against them. Interviewer: So what is your win rate? TSL_Center: My win rate used to be good, but the hyungs have become much better, so it hasn't been as high recently (laughs). ST_Brain:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: You made it to the final round without a single walkover. ST_Brain: When I played today, my PvZs were my most difficult games. I couldn't think of good ways to win, so I often resorted to Immortal all-ins. Interviewer: You've told us that you have trouble in PvZ, but you faced another Zerg in the Round of 4. ST_Brain: During the semifinals, I won easily by using another Immortal rush, then attempting to construct a hidden expansion during the set afterwards. This bit, also from the ST_Brain interview "may" show some bias on the part of the interviewer and I'm adding it more for the sake of objectivity than anything else, with what I consider some bias against zerg on the interviewer's part underlined: Interviewer: There are many Zergs taking up spots in the GSL due to how strong the race is at the moment, so your goals may be different this season. What are they? ST_Brain: I would like to rise up high, but for now, my goal is to reach the Up & Downs and enter Code S using my skill. To conclude and add a bit of counterpoint I'd first like to add ST_Brain implies the great strength of the immortal/sentry allin in his section quoted above, and also add quotes from a zerg player with his thoughts on the infestor and a quote from one about his feelings of ZvP. Miya on the infestor:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: There has been a lot of talk that Zerg has been strong lately. Miya: They say that they can't play the game because of Infestors, but there is no alternative for a Zerg player. I would like them to know that aside from the Infestor, the units that Zerg has aren't very strong.+ Show Spoiler + I personally STRONGLY disagree with his sentiments here, having seen zergs perform quite well over the past couple years without any infestor use at all and even in recent tournaments using builds such as muta/ling/bane and roach pushes such as Stephano's. SKTelecomT1_Dark on ZvP:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: What would you call your greatest stumbling block or hump? SKTelecomT1_Dark: If I happen to reach Code S, I want to avoid a Protoss in my first match. Even today, I focused on practicing my ZvP but found out that there were almost no Protoss players in my group once I arrived. + Show Spoiler + Goddamn that took a while to write, hope people find it of interest x.x; Credits again to the interviews here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381312 | ||
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