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On January 30 2012 08:50 MichaelDonovan wrote:
One thing I really have to say about all this is that complaining about a perceived imbalance is NOT whining. People who use the word "whining" are just being spiteful. Because the game is so young still, it is actually very useful to have these discussions, and we should thank IdrA (as well as all of the other zergs right now) for bringing it up.
It becomes whining when he claims he's better than all these other players and would win if it weren't for imbalance.
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On January 30 2012 08:49 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 08:47 Micket wrote:
There have been situations where the best Zergs in the world die to a timing attack purely because the build they chose had a 2 minute timing window where they would just die to an attack.
I build with a 2 minute timing window of defeat is a pretty shitty build.
And all of the top zergs go for that build. Must mean they are shitty players then i guess.
Or it means zerg has to cut corners to have a shot at winning, and if those cut corners are exploited by their opponents, they just die.
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On January 30 2012 08:31 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 08:21 Incognoto wrote:On January 30 2012 08:04 Whatson wrote:On January 30 2012 07:52 Incognoto wrote:
You know, it's not really my kind of thing condoning whining and complaining. It tends to get on my nerves. I also believe that Idra isn't playing to the best of his capacity. He's got the rote mechanics but he needs that extra something... Either way, I also really dislike people, who really don't know better, shitting on a professional opinion.
"Well, if Idra said ZvP is imba atm, it sure as hell must not be"... come on guys seriously? Who plays SC2 all day long? You or Idra? Who has the better insight on the game?
Again, I'm not saying Idra is always right and that he should be worshiped like Flash a god, but his statements should at very least not be scoffed at that lightly and should hold some meaning.
The biggest problem with his statements is that he's ALWAYS said that Protoss is OP against Zerg. Ever since he lost to White-ra in the HDH Invitational in early beta, he's been complaining against toss nonstop. Even when ZvP was considered heavily zerg favored, he continued to say that Toss was OP. So really, nobody should believe him when he claims that Toss is OP now, because, after all, he's been saying the same thing for the past two years, and it's almost never been true. I'm not going to defend Idra's pov, nor am I going to defend Idra's "whining". Yeah he does complain a lot, but unlike everyone here who can only base their arguments on statistics and theorycrafting, Idra has actual experience. My point is that people are too quick to dismiss his opinion. Instead of "Oh well, I wonder why Idra believes that ZvP is imba, it would be interesting to know why he believes something like that, especially considering the level at which he plays" people are going "LOLOL IDRA IS GAY AND WRONG". This happened in the crowbar/policemen thread too. People have their heads stuck so far up their asses their ears are filled with shit and they absolutely refuse to listen to people who actually know what they're talking about. An unfortunate trend.. Once again, it's because he's always claimed 'Toss imba!' In the beginning, I think a lot of us might have believed him, but he's been saying the same thing forever. He loses more and more credibility the longer he repeats himself in the same way, especially since Code S zergs like Coca and Lucky are doing fantastic versus Toss. Maybe it's just that Idra isn't good enough to compete against the upper tier Protoss. I mean, he's always blamed others for his losses so...
Whether or not Idra's claims from a year ago were justified or not is beyond the point. Maybe his claims were justified, maybe they weren't. At the moment though, given his recent results and the fact that he's been grinding the Korean ladder (think metagame and think how he said "z doesn't beat p right now"), I think it's fairly safe to say he has a solid understanding of what he's talking about. Hence it would be better to try to understand his statements instead of scoffing at them.
Either way I've stated my opinion on the matter and I'm not going to push it more than that. Agree to disagree.
@polysciguy: wat
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On January 30 2012 08:48 Roe wrote:
Idra can't stop with this comedy show of his >.>
I really do think he's just joking. He couldn't be serious after all this time..
how can you possibly think that
is he winning vs protoss? no.
is everyone else in the world saying how easy zvp is? no.
weirdest kind of humor ever if you are right.
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On January 30 2012 08:50 MichaelDonovan wrote:
One thing I really have to say about all this is that complaining about a perceived imbalance is NOT whining. People who use the word "whining" are just being spiteful. Because the game is so young still, it is actually very useful to have these discussions, and we should thank IdrA (as well as all of the other zergs right now) for bringing it up.
its not the bringing it up that makes us say whining, its the fact that he's been doing it forever, statistics don't back it up, AND its not a, "there is an issue with this aspect of the matchup", that would be starting a discussion, its "this matchup is FUBAR *rage*", which isn't a discussion.
@incognito, i used the stephan colbert thing to point out that the guy is basically saying the same thing of we don't rely on facts and statistics to make decisions.
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On January 30 2012 08:52 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 08:50 MichaelDonovan wrote:
One thing I really have to say about all this is that complaining about a perceived imbalance is NOT whining. People who use the word "whining" are just being spiteful. Because the game is so young still, it is actually very useful to have these discussions, and we should thank IdrA (as well as all of the other zergs right now) for bringing it up. It becomes whining when he claims he's better than all these other players and would win if it weren't for imbalance.
I disagree with that statement.
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I hope they practice like madmen and improve because everybody has been improving so much lately and the way I've seen them play lately has not impressed me. Gl.
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Isnt ZvP pretty Zerg favoured right now?
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On January 30 2012 08:32 MichaelDonovan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 08:31 Whatson wrote:On January 30 2012 08:21 Incognoto wrote:On January 30 2012 08:04 Whatson wrote:On January 30 2012 07:52 Incognoto wrote:
You know, it's not really my kind of thing condoning whining and complaining. It tends to get on my nerves. I also believe that Idra isn't playing to the best of his capacity. He's got the rote mechanics but he needs that extra something... Either way, I also really dislike people, who really don't know better, shitting on a professional opinion.
"Well, if Idra said ZvP is imba atm, it sure as hell must not be"... come on guys seriously? Who plays SC2 all day long? You or Idra? Who has the better insight on the game?
Again, I'm not saying Idra is always right and that he should be worshiped like Flash a god, but his statements should at very least not be scoffed at that lightly and should hold some meaning.
The biggest problem with his statements is that he's ALWAYS said that Protoss is OP against Zerg. Ever since he lost to White-ra in the HDH Invitational in early beta, he's been complaining against toss nonstop. Even when ZvP was considered heavily zerg favored, he continued to say that Toss was OP. So really, nobody should believe him when he claims that Toss is OP now, because, after all, he's been saying the same thing for the past two years, and it's almost never been true. I'm not going to defend Idra's pov, nor am I going to defend Idra's "whining". Yeah he does complain a lot, but unlike everyone here who can only base their arguments on statistics and theorycrafting, Idra has actual experience. My point is that people are too quick to dismiss his opinion. Instead of "Oh well, I wonder why Idra believes that ZvP is imba, it would be interesting to know why he believes something like that, especially considering the level at which he plays" people are going "LOLOL IDRA IS GAY AND WRONG". This happened in the crowbar/policemen thread too. People have their heads stuck so far up their asses their ears are filled with shit and they absolutely refuse to listen to people who actually know what they're talking about. An unfortunate trend.. Once again, it's because he's always claimed 'Toss imba!' In the beginning, I think a lot of us might have believed him, but he's been saying the same thing forever. He loses more and more credibility the longer he repeats himself in the same way, especially since Code S zergs like Coca and Lucky are doing fantastic versus Toss. Maybe it's just that Idra isn't good enough to compete against the upper tier Protoss. I mean, he's always blamed others for his losses so... CoCa hasn't played in like 2 months. His relation to the metagame is near zero right now, as far as what we can observe.
Wtf are u on about? CoCa plays ladder everyday, all day. You think he just went back home to roll his thumbs since the whole drama situation?
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On January 30 2012 08:49 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 08:47 Micket wrote:
There have been situations where the best Zergs in the world die to a timing attack purely because the build they chose had a 2 minute timing window where they would just die to an attack.
I build with a 2 minute timing window of defeat is a pretty shitty build.
That's the point. Pros as good as Nestea, Leenock and DRG are doing incredibly risky builds (perhaps 2 minutes is hyperbole) because they can't forsee a way to win ZvP without mutas.
Idra himself says mutas are really really good, but risky. He is the sort of player that doesn't want to lose to someone worse than him just because he went for an unsafe build. Consequently, he can't find a safe way to go muta and thus doesn't do it very often.
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On January 30 2012 08:54 Techno wrote:
Isnt ZvP pretty Zerg favoured right now?
Nestea picked Dongraegu for his GSL group. What does that suggest to you?
To help you out a little, both DRG and Nestea complained about zerg having a tough time against the other two races right now in their respective interviews.
DRG was basically begging nestea not to pick him for his GSL group, because he knew he would do it considering the current state of the game.
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On January 30 2012 08:52 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 08:50 MichaelDonovan wrote:
One thing I really have to say about all this is that complaining about a perceived imbalance is NOT whining. People who use the word "whining" are just being spiteful. Because the game is so young still, it is actually very useful to have these discussions, and we should thank IdrA (as well as all of the other zergs right now) for bringing it up. It becomes whining when he claims he's better than all these other players and would win if it weren't for imbalance.
Oh I'm so sorry I said I'd stop but I really need to make a point here. SC2 has design flaws (note I said design, not imbalance). These flaws make it so a player can beat another player who is better than them through sheer luck. And I'm not talking about cheese, I'm talking about build order poker and things like that. There are coin flips in this game and more than one pro gamer has said this. That's why it's especially important for tournaments to avoid Bo1 at all costs.
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sort of an attitude of a loser, not a attitude of s champion
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Honestly all we see is protoss getting the beat down by zerg in the GSL : /
Then again idra has been saying that it's impossible to beat protoss for the last year anyways even when zerg had a what, 70%? win ratio vs them?
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A grack in the road
A day has passed, but then alas
a thread appeared,
It filled up fast.
An interview was there ahead.
The OP I read and jumped in bed.
Words were spoken by our Grack,
that gave my face a fuckin' grinn
"Zerg simply cannot win."
Goodnight.
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On January 30 2012 08:55 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 08:32 MichaelDonovan wrote:On January 30 2012 08:31 Whatson wrote:On January 30 2012 08:21 Incognoto wrote:On January 30 2012 08:04 Whatson wrote:On January 30 2012 07:52 Incognoto wrote:
You know, it's not really my kind of thing condoning whining and complaining. It tends to get on my nerves. I also believe that Idra isn't playing to the best of his capacity. He's got the rote mechanics but he needs that extra something... Either way, I also really dislike people, who really don't know better, shitting on a professional opinion.
"Well, if Idra said ZvP is imba atm, it sure as hell must not be"... come on guys seriously? Who plays SC2 all day long? You or Idra? Who has the better insight on the game?
Again, I'm not saying Idra is always right and that he should be worshiped like Flash a god, but his statements should at very least not be scoffed at that lightly and should hold some meaning.
The biggest problem with his statements is that he's ALWAYS said that Protoss is OP against Zerg. Ever since he lost to White-ra in the HDH Invitational in early beta, he's been complaining against toss nonstop. Even when ZvP was considered heavily zerg favored, he continued to say that Toss was OP. So really, nobody should believe him when he claims that Toss is OP now, because, after all, he's been saying the same thing for the past two years, and it's almost never been true. I'm not going to defend Idra's pov, nor am I going to defend Idra's "whining". Yeah he does complain a lot, but unlike everyone here who can only base their arguments on statistics and theorycrafting, Idra has actual experience. My point is that people are too quick to dismiss his opinion. Instead of "Oh well, I wonder why Idra believes that ZvP is imba, it would be interesting to know why he believes something like that, especially considering the level at which he plays" people are going "LOLOL IDRA IS GAY AND WRONG". This happened in the crowbar/policemen thread too. People have their heads stuck so far up their asses their ears are filled with shit and they absolutely refuse to listen to people who actually know what they're talking about. An unfortunate trend.. Once again, it's because he's always claimed 'Toss imba!' In the beginning, I think a lot of us might have believed him, but he's been saying the same thing forever. He loses more and more credibility the longer he repeats himself in the same way, especially since Code S zergs like Coca and Lucky are doing fantastic versus Toss. Maybe it's just that Idra isn't good enough to compete against the upper tier Protoss. I mean, he's always blamed others for his losses so... CoCa hasn't played in like 2 months. His relation to the metagame is near zero right now, as far as what we can observe. Wtf are u on about? CoCa plays ladder everyday, all day. You think he just went back home to roll his thumbs since the whole drama situation?
No. What I mean is that we cannot say that CoCa is good against protoss right now because we haven't SEEN him play against protoss. That's why I added "as far as we can observe" to the end of my post. Maybe that wasn't clear enough for you. I apologize.
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Have to agree with idra, zvp you have to be tricky, outthink, or take your opponent really off guard to win. A standard ZvP game where both palyers get to 3+ bases with minimal dmg and get to mass out the army of their choice; toss will win EASILY.
Every single toss unit can do good vs zerg, where as zerg can use mutas to attack where toss has no units, and or go for the slowass fuck broodlord infestor play wich totally suck ass on big maps like taldarim.
Very often will the toss CRUSH the zerg army with minimal losses, fill the supply loss with 1 round of stalker warpin (overmake warpgates late game), then kill 1 or 2 zerg bases before zerg can get a decent army that can fight what toss has.
NEVER EVER will you see a zerg army completly crush a toss army at equal supply, it doesnt happen.
Imbalanced? Try to play zerg vs protoss on ladder at high master+ for a while, and youll see what im saying.
Hell, im a zerg player and i feel more confident in my pvz than zvp.
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anyone know what situation is preventing huk from practicing properly right now?
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IdrA's standard 14 hatch into excessive QQ, followed up by a ragequit in the early game.
This guy has the mechanics to be great, but thats only half that game. Other half is mental. And that is his weakpoint
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EPT
