EPTIs Z the hardest race to play at high levels? - Page 5
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:25 McDaniels92 wrote: I think some of you misinterpreted my post. I didn't even talk about mechanics. I think larva spits and creep spread is probably more mechanically demanding than anything the other two races have to do, but that isn't even the subject of this post. To summarize what I'm trying to say: Zerg has to decide between drone production and unit production because the two unit types compete for build time (larva) whereas other races can build both at the same time without really ever having to sacrifice production of the other (except in extreme or all in situations) This means that zerg has to make more complex decisions and has to do so more frequently. Furthermore scouting information is more important for zerg than for any other race in my opinion because of the fact that zerg has to react to what they see by either droning or making units, if zerg produces drones when units are needed or produces units when your opponent is macroing, then you are left in a very very difficult situation. Terran and protoss can produce units capable of defending their base and in many cases attacking their opponent while also not sacraficing the ability to survive into the late game. Zerg, however, sacrifices too much to make an early push such that any early zerg push feels like an all in because you know you likely wont have the ability to match your opponent in the late game unless you do significant damage with your push. Furthermore early zerg pushes are very weak against terran wall ins and protoss sentries, and that may very well be part of the problem. TLDR: Zerg has to constantly react to their opponent by producing drones or units at the right time, not choosing the right way can cost the game. Zerg needs constant scouting information otherwise you're simply hoping/gambling that you're making the right type of unit, and getting scouting information is arguably hardest for zerg. If protoss were in the same predicament I would say it would be hardest for toss because obs come out relatively late compared to scan/overlord sacs, but protoss is capable of making enough units to defend most pushes while also developing an economy capable of matching if not surpassing their opponents in the late game. Hatch larva spawn rate > CC/nexus worker build rate -> use the auto spawn larva for drones and you are equal on economy Inject = 4 larva every 50 second (assuming that you have a 10 second delay on average between injects) 4 units every 50 seconds equals 2 rax and a factory with similar macro. Meaning you can produce a similar amount of units than 2-3 production facilities with your queen. Now if you make a macro hatch, you get the equivalent of around 5 production facilities for 550 minerals. A bargain! If you factor in your tech buildings, you will probably still be favored in terms of resources needed to increase unit production. So your problem is actually the advantage of you race to produce the units/workers it needs due to it's flexible production? Imagine there is no larva inject and instead you have a larva maximum of 1 at each hatch which can only spawn a drone and each 'tech building' would produce larva that could only evolve into up to 4 different combat units. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:33 TeWy wrote: Zerg is the best and/or easiest race to play. Just check how many top 200 Zerg players there are, the theoretical number should be 20% (the overall ratio of zerg players on ladder). You can also check this for all the leagues... as the league gets higher the ratio of Zergs get higher... 2 possibilities : Zerg players are better, Zerg race is easier/better. This makes me remember. There was one time in my division, I was rank 2, rank 1 and 3-10 were zerg players. I had mix feeling at that time hahaha. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
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Elean
689 Posts
Below pro lvl, I would not say that zerg is hardest to play, because I think that the T or P macro-oriented players are equally as deserving as Z players. However, it is true that contrary to the other races there is no easy way to play zerg. Most terran or protoss just copy 1 or 2 builds for each match up and win with a timing push. That is for sure easier than playing zerg. | ||
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TheWarbler
United States1659 Posts
As a terran if you miss just 3 seconds of building time on your raxs or tanks you are behind. Like said before in other posts a zerg can hit hislarva injects and produce 6 mutas but If I dont produce a thor for 5 seconds my next thor is behind 5 seconds and that adds up and becomes a big deal. Spreading overlords is quite easy considering you always have them. Once out of mid game a terran has to finish the game. The best thing we can do is Slow Push with mech/biomech. If we dont we get overrun unless we have built 6 extra cc's for scans on the way to there base cause we dont have any map vision other then scans. Xel nagas are always controlled by zerg and show the whole map combined with overlords. I think removing the xel nagas would be help balance of the game. Or lowering the vision they grant overtime. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
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telfire
United States415 Posts
But I can say for sure that it is harder at lower levels of play. Having played all races (more Zerg and Toss than Terran) I can state without doubt that there are many timings which are much easier to hit than to defend against. I think it is harder mainly because of two things, one because it is difficult to scout as Zerg and yet so vital, and two because as Zerg you obviously can't make both units and drones in the same way other races are. It is easy to build a set of units and then say "attack" and harder to judge the exact composition and produce the right number of units to stop it without all-inning yourself. Still I don't think the gap is nearly what a lot of people say it is. I can say from experience that Terran is more than just a-move, sieging tanks at the right time in the right position, stimming at the right time, it takes skill, it is not just "a move" like a lot of people say. Funny, related pic I made (but don't take it too seriously it's just for lulz): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZVnVx.png) On March 23 2011 22:10 DarthXX wrote: Another one of these threads, pretty sure this has been discussed to death many, many times over on TL. Pretty sure you contributed nothing, troll. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:48 TheWarbler wrote: I have played Terran and Zerg at 3k diamond level. From my Standpoint I think Terran is harder. I dont have a problem with scouting,larva injecting or spreading creep. I think it is a very simple mechanic, because long as you do that the game becomes much simpler. As a terran if you miss just 3 seconds of building time on your raxs or tanks you are behind. Like said before in other posts a zerg can hit hislarva injects and produce 6 mutas but If I dont produce a thor for 5 seconds my next thor is behind 5 seconds and that adds up and becomes a big deal. Spreading overlords is quite easy considering you always have them. Once out of mid game a terran has to finish the game. The best thing we can do is Slow Push with mech/biomech. If we dont we get overrun unless we have built 6 extra cc's for scans on the way to there base cause we dont have any map vision other then scans. Xel nagas are always controlled by zerg and show the whole map combined with overlords. I think removing the xel nagas would be help balance of the game. Or lowering the vision they grant overtime. Again, hes not talking about the mechanics of the races. He is talking about theory and experience needed to play each respective race. If you ever watch pro games, you would know Zerg does not always have the watch towers. People have even invented a name for this for Protoss and Terran called "shark mode" | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
just trying to contribute. I can't speak to the highest level of things, it would be foolish of me to try. | ||
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Augury
United States758 Posts
The play style for Terran/Toss is a lot more intuitive for most players as well. Especially players coming from other RTS games, such as Wc3. At least that was true for me and I'd assume some other players. | ||
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CryingCow
Canada149 Posts
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Boundless
Canada588 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:48 TheWarbler wrote: I have played Terran and Zerg at 3k diamond level. From my Standpoint I think Terran is harder. I dont have a problem with scouting,larva injecting or spreading creep. I think it is a very simple mechanic, because long as you do that the game becomes much simpler. As a terran if you miss just 3 seconds of building time on your raxs or tanks you are behind. Like said before in other posts a zerg can hit hislarva injects and produce 6 mutas but If I dont produce a thor for 5 seconds my next thor is behind 5 seconds and that adds up and becomes a big deal. Spreading overlords is quite easy considering you always have them. Once out of mid game a terran has to finish the game. The best thing we can do is Slow Push with mech/biomech. If we dont we get overrun unless we have built 6 extra cc's for scans on the way to there base cause we dont have any map vision other then scans. Xel nagas are always controlled by zerg and show the whole map combined with overlords. I think removing the xel nagas would be help balance of the game. Or lowering the vision they grant overtime. This doesn't make any sense at all. You can't say that since Zerg can produce more than one muta at a time, it makes up for time lost building all the other ones. Sure, it reduces the time it takes to go from 0 mutas to 10 mutas, but if I miss my build time by 15 seconds, I've also delayed any drones I'm going to make by 15 seconds. It's exactly the same thing. Also, missing 3 seconds of building time does not put you behind, since you have mules. Spreading overlords is easy. Spreading overlords properly and usefully is very very difficult if you are trying to both macro, inject, and spread creep at the same time. You have to be aware of when you are building overlords, where your scouting deficiencies are, and send your overlords to the proper place. Terran just goes 4c and clicks exactly what they want to see, whenever they want. Why are you talking about this "finishing the game" stuff in the context of intel and scouting? You don't need 15 scans ahead of your army to know which exact pixel his banelings are on, you stim one marine and run it up there, see all of his stuff, siege your 25 tanks, and autowin because of tank splash and marine dps. If anything, the one balance change that this game needs is to make early-mid game Zerg scouting easier. IIRC, they increased overseer cost a few patches back - that change needs to be reversed, and the cost maybe should be lowered. There have been other solutions to solve the scouting problem, and I don't have them all, but I do have the knowledge to know that it is a major issue. QED, /thread. Also, that image posted above me is full of epic truth and win. | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
After diamond/masters there is a dramatic shift in the mechanics where the other races have a more difficult time with unit control and decision making. | ||
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dde
Canada796 Posts
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Rashid
191 Posts
in every TvZ and TvP game i've watched, winning T players rarely play standard to win; since T is significantly weak lategame against Z and P, the onus of harassing always falls on T, and good T players had to pull off all sorts of MacGuyver shit just to get even with the other races. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
Larva inject and supply cost of zerg units also reduce the zerg skill cap. Hydras cost 1 supply in BW so the trade off for using larva for drones or an army is more prevalent. Zerg were kinda rebalanced to use fewer, more powerful, more expensive units in SC2 so you don't need as much larva. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:11 Sniffy wrote: Zerg doesnt have the equivalent of 4gate or banshee/stim pushes. And early game is unstable due to most people knowing how to deny scouting overlords. Early game zerg is harder. Past the early game its equal. People keep saying this, but, late game zerg is the same difficulty as late game toss? I duno, the ease of toss macro at that point is just overwhelming to me. The most difficulty I've had with toss in the late game is how many warpgates to build. | ||
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Inflexion
Canada560 Posts
It's true that Zerg requires the most experience (due to being the reactive race) but at the top levels, that experience is already gained by most pros already. I do believe that Zerg is the hardest race to get to the top. I don't think many people will disagree with me here. It's very unforgiving, especially if you don't have the experience when playing zerg. As Terran or Protoss, you can practice several solid builds over and over again and still do decently well because most of the time, they will dictate the pace of the game against zerg. Zergs can't just practice 1/2 builds per match, they play reactively against T/P and, therefore, as a result, is the hardest race to get to the top level because it requires so much experience. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:22 Maynarde wrote: Nah, but like 4 gates and stim rushes they're pretty much an insta win against a fast expand. Should check it out man, there's a thread on it I think. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190292 That timing is not at all similar to a 4-gate or Banshee rush | ||
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