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On March 23 2011 23:26 Rob28 wrote:
I'll concede that zerg has the steepest learning/mastery curve, yes, but more difficult once mastered? Nope. Sure there are injects to worry about, but pros who have mastered zerg treat injects as just a routine action they go through, like chronoboosts and mules, so it's even on that field.
If you miss a larva inject youll get punished hard and might even lose the game if its a tense situation.
If you miss a mule or chrono boost - who cares?
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On March 23 2011 23:26 Rob28 wrote:
Then there's creep spread, but very rarely does creep cause a win/lose situation for a game in my observation. And since all zerg units are produced at one structure, I'd say that makes up for having to worry about spread, whereas other races use the time they don't have to spread creep ensuring that they are producing units at all their production sturctures.
Concerning unit training and keeping up with your max supply there is no difference in the needed apm. If anything Toss needs slightly less apm, because they tend to build units that cost more supply and therefore have to build less units.
It doesn't matter if a Z can produce everything from one structure, since you don't select a single structure to macro anyway, you use a hotkey to select it and guess what: P and T can put everything on one hotkey aswell and use tab to switch between the different facilities(or something like 4 raxes 5 facs 6 ports), while Z uses hatch hotkey+s again to build different units. It's basically the same.
The only thing that matters is that P and T have to build more facilities to have an equal production, which equals a little bit more apm needed.
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On March 23 2011 23:57 Keula wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:37 freetgy wrote:
Zerg is not the hardest, but it needs experiance, which comes from playing alot.
Like MC playing strong with FF, if you don't know how to prevent that you lose, but if you know what can be done, obviously you will survive and be ahead.
Zerg is so much more rewarding. >implying its not way harder to deal with ff as zerg than spamming them as protoss.
Spamming indicates mindless button mashing to get the job done, MC's FF's are anything but mindless. He has beautiful control.... Of course that is completely off topic.
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On March 24 2011 00:02 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:57 Keula wrote:On March 23 2011 21:37 freetgy wrote:
Zerg is not the hardest, but it needs experiance, which comes from playing alot.
Like MC playing strong with FF, if you don't know how to prevent that you lose, but if you know what can be done, obviously you will survive and be ahead.
Zerg is so much more rewarding. >implying its not way harder to deal with ff as zerg than spamming them as protoss. Spamming indicates mindless button mashing to get the job done, MC's FF's are anything but mindless. He has beautiful control.... Of course that is completely off topic.
its not like it would have mattered if he missplaced 1 or 2 (he even had energy left), especially in the finals vs july
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On March 24 2011 00:00 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:26 Rob28 wrote:
Then there's creep spread, but very rarely does creep cause a win/lose situation for a game in my observation. And since all zerg units are produced at one structure, I'd say that makes up for having to worry about spread, whereas other races use the time they don't have to spread creep ensuring that they are producing units at all their production sturctures. It doesn't matter if a Z can produce everything from one structure, since you don't select a single structure to macro anyway, you use a hotkey to select it and guess what: P and T can put everything on one hotkey aswell and use tab to switch between the different facilities(or something like 4 raxes 5 facs 6 ports), while Z uses hatch hotkey+s again to build different units. It's basically the same. The only thing that matters is that P and T have to build more facilities to have an equal production, which equals a little bit more apm needed.
Cycling through tab and hotkeyed production from 3 different production buildings is just as APM intensive as spreading creep would be, so I personally believe the field is level. It takes three keystrokes to fill a zerg production cycle. Hell, even warping in units as toss requires spam-clicking the mouse holding shift, which is way more APM than 3 button clicks. Combine that with the APM needed to be building more sturctures, and you've got the semblance of equality among the three races.
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On March 23 2011 23:59 Keula wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:26 Rob28 wrote:
I'll concede that zerg has the steepest learning/mastery curve, yes, but more difficult once mastered? Nope. Sure there are injects to worry about, but pros who have mastered zerg treat injects as just a routine action they go through, like chronoboosts and mules, so it's even on that field.
If you miss a larva inject youll get punished hard and might even lose the game if its a tense situation. If you miss a mule or chrono boost - who cares?
Uhhh anybody who's ever been 6 pooled or 7RR, that's who cares. It literally equals a loss to miss either in those situations.
Lategame, just as bad. Do you realize how tough it is to compete with a lategame zerg economy if you neglect boost or mules?
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On March 23 2011 21:46 arbitrageur wrote:
Zerg is the hardest definitely up til high masters. I'm not sure beyond that, as terran and protoss players start needing to have good decision making as well if they are not doing some build order all in.
Up till high masters, protoss or terran can just do a set build order with a very high win %. Hardly any skill whatsoever yet they can easily reach high masters with an array of no-skill set build orders (forge FE --> 5 gate, 1 zealot 2 sentry expand --> 7:15 DTs, 2 base VR collosus 200/200, etc). Hardly any skill, will slay the majority of masters players consistently.
I've met zerg players that were in high masters that played 6 pools or baneling bust every single game - it's nothing a phenomenon exclusive to terran or protoss.
It's not that one race is harder to play than another, it's that all races demand slightly _different_ skills. So for example, if you are good at micro but suck at scouting and macro decision making, you'll find zerg more difficult to play than say terran. The situation might be the opposite though if you have different skills - it cannot be generalized.
I have played mostly zerg in bw and both terran and zerg in sc2 and i don't find either race easier to play - although they certainly play differently.
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On March 24 2011 00:12 Rob28 wrote:
It takes three keystrokes to fill a zerg production cycle.
And it takes 2 for Terran in that case :p
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On March 24 2011 00:15 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:12 Rob28 wrote:
It takes three keystrokes to fill a zerg production cycle. And it takes 2 for Terran in that case :p
For one type of sturcture, yes... if you want three barracks units in the time it takes the zerg to make a dozen...
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On March 24 2011 00:17 Rob28 wrote:
For one type of sturcture, yes. If you want three barracks units in the time it takes the zerg to make a dozen...
You get as many as you have minerals/production capabilities, same as Z. And no, as Z you're not always waiting for spawn larvae to finish, for the most part you're using larvae when you can.
Only remaxing in the lategame is easier for Z, that's it. Which is something Z has to do more frequently than T or P, because the stuff dies so fast.
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It's only harder to play in lower levels.
Once you're good, you'll have enough apm to inject, spread creep, macro, etc. Everything else comes from experience.
It's like in SC1 where Terran was the hardest race to play at the lower levels and Protoss was the easiest. Once you got to a high enough level, everything evened out.
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I think some of you misinterpreted my post. I didn't even talk about mechanics. I think larva spits and creep spread is probably more mechanically demanding than anything the other two races have to do, but that isn't even the subject of this post.
To summarize what I'm trying to say: Zerg has to decide between drone production and unit production because the two unit types compete for build time (larva) whereas other races can build both at the same time without really ever having to sacrifice production of the other (except in extreme or all in situations) This means that zerg has to make more complex decisions and has to do so more frequently. Furthermore scouting information is more important for zerg than for any other race in my opinion because of the fact that zerg has to react to what they see by either droning or making units, if zerg produces drones when units are needed or produces units when your opponent is macroing, then you are left in a very very difficult situation.
Terran and protoss can produce units capable of defending their base and in many cases attacking their opponent while also not sacraficing the ability to survive into the late game. Zerg, however, sacrifices too much to make an early push such that any early zerg push feels like an all in because you know you likely wont have the ability to match your opponent in the late game unless you do significant damage with your push. Furthermore early zerg pushes are very weak against terran wall ins and protoss sentries, and that may very well be part of the problem.
TLDR:
Zerg has to constantly react to their opponent by producing drones or units at the right time, not choosing the right way can cost the game. Zerg needs constant scouting information otherwise you're simply hoping/gambling that you're making the right type of unit, and getting scouting information is arguably hardest for zerg. If protoss were in the same predicament I would say it would be hardest for toss because obs come out relatively late compared to scan/overlord sacs, but protoss is capable of making enough units to defend most pushes while also developing an economy capable of matching if not surpassing their opponents in the late game.
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On March 23 2011 23:59 Keula wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:26 Rob28 wrote:
I'll concede that zerg has the steepest learning/mastery curve, yes, but more difficult once mastered? Nope. Sure there are injects to worry about, but pros who have mastered zerg treat injects as just a routine action they go through, like chronoboosts and mules, so it's even on that field.
If you miss a larva inject youll get punished hard and might even lose the game if its a tense situation. If you miss a mule or chrono boost - who cares?
If my orbital had an option to produce 4 units of my choosing simultaneously with a 40 second cooldown, I would not care if I am getting punished for not using it, because even if I slip sometimes, it's a way higher reward than mining 270 minerals faster over the next 90 seconds. Larva inject is a way more powerful macro mechanic and due to the fact that you can have more queens than hatcheries there is no tension between tumors, transfuse and inject. So not injecting is suboptimal. Imagine you could inject whenever you wanted.. no need for a macro hatch, because a queen gives you even more larva.
Also making a macro hatch is dirt cheap comparing to getting additional T/P production facilities when you compare the unit output to the investment.
For Zergs complaining about scouting options:
Zerg has the best units for map control and vision (spling and muta). There is a shortage of information about the setup of the opponent map. But apparently Zerg has the feeling, that scans magically reveal the complete map. A terran relying on scans too much gets behind in economy, because to get the tech a pre-lair Zerg is going for, two scans need to be thrown (main and expand). For all it's worth - give Zerg the option to forgo a larva inject for a scan. Zerg players will still complain about poor scouting ability.
(Though I really laughed about the toss whining about 'pre-observer' scouting)
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Some of these ideas are fair, others off the mark. I mean with the recent patch the top Zerg spellcaster (the Infestor) got crowned as the new champion of the swarm. I think it should take Kerrigan's place as leader.
I wouldn't say Zerg is "harder" to play, but it is very different than P or T. Z seems to be all about positioning. P seems to be more spell control and army comp, and T seems to be "awww whatever, I'll just make marines and maybe abuse the maps with my tanks." and "O wait, did I forget to SCV for a while... no problem; my mule can bring in 5x what your drone or probe can"
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On March 23 2011 23:50 WhiteDog wrote:The only problem I see with zerg, that makes them a bit harder to play, is there inability to scout and to play agressive in the early game. There is for me a clear proof that zerg were not design to be agressive early: their first 3 units have speed upgrades, and two of the three got that upgrade in T2. Scout is the same. The first 7-10 minute are always shaky because of that, unless you all in or overproduce battle units (and underproduce drone by doing so). Show nested quote +Zerg needs more apm
This is btw one of the most stupid myths that seems to plague this forum. I'm a fairly low apm masters player and I have no problems playing zerg. Actually, this is not dumb at all. Zerg do not need more apm, they have more apm. Producing mass cheap units : pretty easy to understand why your apm goes higher as a zerg. Just watch a replay, and look at a player apm when he morph a bunch of baneling.
I know that zerg players on ladder generally seem to have higher apm. It's actually quite a noticeble trend when I look at my replays that zerg > terran/protoss in terms of the average apm. But that doesn't mean they actually need it. A lot of it is just early game spam anyway and it often looks like zerg players feel they need to have super-high apm, when they don't.
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I'd say yes, but its very subjective and depends a lot on preference.
If you look at piqliq's run with all the races, he dominated the top of the ladder with abusive play as protoss, switched to terran and still dominated, switched to zerg for a bit and dropped to below top 100. It could be his style though.
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On March 23 2011 23:59 Keula wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:26 Rob28 wrote:
I'll concede that zerg has the steepest learning/mastery curve, yes, but more difficult once mastered? Nope. Sure there are injects to worry about, but pros who have mastered zerg treat injects as just a routine action they go through, like chronoboosts and mules, so it's even on that field.
If you miss a larva inject youll get punished hard and might even lose the game if its a tense situation. If you miss a mule or chrono boost - who cares?
1 SCV takes 17 seconds to build, 2 takes 34 and 3 takes 51s. To optimize the resource, you have to remember to create a SCV every 17s, while with Zerg, you can forget to create drone for 10s, and can still pop out 3 drones in the next 17s. Another example, it takes 45s to build a tank, 180s to build 4 tanks, with Zerg, you can inject larva which takes 45s, and then build 4 tanks at the same time in 45s. So in another sense, Zerg's production is more forgiving..
A lot of people complain about mules, but if you look at it this way: a mules can only harvest max 300 minerals in 90s, which equal to 6 workers mining in 50s. So if the opponent has 6 more workers than you, the mules only help Terran to catch up the eco for 50s, that's it, after the 51th second, Terran will be behind greatly again. How much T is behind? In 40s when the mules die, Terran is behind 240 mineral which is almost another mules. And believe me, Zerg very often has 6+ more workers than Terran. If the MULES were to be taken out of the game, Terran would need a serious mechanic to catch up with Z and P in the eco war (reactor cc?)
I admit that Zerg is the hard race to play (for me), not because of mechanic, but because of the unit design itself and I don't play Zerg very much. When I play Zerg in 4v4 for fun, I hardly miss any injection because I get used to 45s waiting for the tanks to come out. Compared to Terran which have a lot of units coming out from lots of buildings and have different build time. It's much harder to optimize and build units constantly.
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I have made post similar to the OP as well and I agree 100% even as a protoss player I cant argue that there are simply more mechanics that yeild greater importance
then the other races
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Zerg is the best and/or easiest race to play.
Just check how many top 200 Zerg players there are, the theoretical number should be 20% (the overall ratio of zerg players on ladder).
You can also check this for all the leagues... as the league gets higher the ratio of Zergs get higher...
2 possibilities : Zerg players are better, Zerg race is easier/better.
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Build a hatch, its same as two racks in cost but will help you with macro. Zerg is not harder at all and I've played all three races. It is different though
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EPT
