EPTIs Z the hardest race to play at high levels? - Page 3
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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xbankx
703 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:14 rmAmnesiac wrote: lol. so tired of hearing flawed mechanics comparisons. zerg have creep and and injections, terran has mules, is that it? no it's not. how about producing all units, including supply from one centralised location, needing only one tech structure? that's a harder mechanic as well? stop comparing, it's pointless. Have you tried to do creep spread+larva inject? It is very hard. I play as random when I 2v2 and zerg creep spread+larva inject is very hard to keep up with. I am not saying any one of the special abilities is better than the other special abilities but comparing the apm require to keep up with using each skill is very reasonable. | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:24 mskaa wrote: I dont get the whole unit vs drone production thing. If anything its a huge help for zerg players. You can build a drone or two every time your larva pops and pump out some army everytime as well, just like a terran or protoss would do. On the other hand you can get very good economi quickly with some drone pumping if you feel your safe (like if you just traded army with the opponent). I would think in the lower levels this is harder for people to do well, but in the higher levels it seems just as good and logical as t/p. Frankly, because we can't build drones and units together at roughly equal rates and expect to be even with a toss or protoss, or even a zerg that knows better. If terran or toss could mass produce workers, it would be optimal to scout for possible attacks and mass workers until stauration with the minimum defence neccesary. In an economic game it's all about getting those economies. Every unit zerg makes before saturation is literally slowing their eco in a game where eco is #1. Obviously zerg has to make units during a game, and if you overproduce you can still win, but the very best zerg players don't, and in 3 years (edit,hell now obviously too, but I mean in 3 years players will have to be spot on), no one who wants to consider them a serious zerg player will be able to (just as the skill levels for t and p will rise) | ||
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Mindflow
Korea (South)320 Posts
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
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insolentrus
Russian Federation304 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
I mean, having a look at Naniwas "leaked patch notes", it had some intersting statistics, like Zerg having a 55% win ratio against Protoss (on average), even though the match up is supposedly tilted towards Protoss... | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:58 Dommk wrote: Hardest to master, but I don't think they are the hardest to win with, you certainly don't have to master the race (or play close to perfect) to be able to win the majority of your game. I mean, having a look at Naniwas "leaked patch notes", it had some intersting statistics, like Zerg having a 55% win ratio against Protoss (on average), even though the match up is supposedly tilted towards Protoss... The average win percentages on ladder are not as interesting as what's happening on the top. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
Mid and late game if you managed to scout, drone and spread creep it's not that much harder though. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On March 23 2011 23:09 nkr wrote: The average win percentages on ladder are not as interesting as what's happening on the top. and what are the win percentages at the top? Take away MC, and I bet zerg has a 55% or more vs Protoss in the past 3 GSL events (code s, code a, GSTL2) | ||
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KangaRuthless
United States304 Posts
What can be difficult for Zerg players is properly reacting to what your opponent is doing, and imo there isn't a more chaotic match-up than ZvZ. Unit comps can change so quickly that constant scouting is the second-most important task, next to proper macro. I would argue that Zerg is the hardest race to get accustomed to, and since OP seems to play all 3 races, I'm guessing that the mechanics for Zerg do not match his play-style. I would also argue that Protoss (now more than ever) is the hardest of the 3 races to truly master. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:58 Dommk wrote: I mean, having a look at Naniwas "leaked patch notes", it had some intersting statistics, like Zerg having a 55% win ratio against Protoss (on average), even though the match up is supposedly tilted towards Protoss... Link pls =) Which race is the hardest to play solely depends on the player imo. Zerg needs more apm, but a player whose mechanics are his greatest strength will have an easier time learning to play Z than P for example. I'm a random player whose mechanics are severely lacking(high diamond atm) and even though I played the most games with Z, are a Zerg at heart <3 and understand the race and the matchups the best in my opinion(well, I just don't have a clue how to play T or P properly :p) I win more games as Toss, because Toss is really easy mechanically compared to Z(more difficult in other areas tho) and fits myself better. | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
But I don't doubt that some people find it really hard to play zerg. I find terran damn near impossible to play. Some styles just suit people better than others. Zerg needs more apm This is btw one of the most stupid myths that seems to plague this forum. I'm a fairly low apm masters player and I have no problems playing zerg. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
Then there's creep spread, but very rarely does creep cause a win/lose situation for a game in my observation. And since all zerg units are produced at one structure, I'd say that makes up for having to worry about spread, whereas other races use the time they don't have to spread creep ensuring that they are producing units at all their production sturctures. As for scouting... I'd go so far as to say it's even harder for toss than zerg to scout, particularly early game, pre-observers but post-speedlings. As much as zerg likes to cry imba, I think bliz has done a good job thus far on ensuring that all three races are equally "hard" to use at a master level. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
Z=T skill wise with P beeing abit easier in general cause of how they dictate the game in all matchups, have mostly easier mechanics requirement and army control (say what you want, controling a stalker/collosus ball is not hard) and can follow a set buildorder/plan the easiest with the most powerful and diverse allins. but dont hate me for that. i admit that i play T/Z in ladder and never really liked sc2 toss as a race/mechanics :> | ||
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Highwinds
Canada955 Posts
On March 23 2011 23:26 Rob28 wrote: I'll concede that zerg has the steepest learning/mastery curve, yes, but more difficult once mastered? Nope. Sure there are injects to worry about, but pros who have mastered zerg treat injects as just a routine action they go through, like chronoboosts and mules, so it's even on that field. Then there's creep spread, but very rarely does creep cause a win/lose situation for a game in my observation. And since all zerg units are produced at one structure, I'd say that makes up for having to worry about spread, whereas other races use the time they don't have to spread creep ensuring that they are producing units at all their production sturctures. As for scouting... I'd go so far as to say it's even harder for toss than zerg to scout, particularly early game, pre-observers but post-speedlings. As much as zerg likes to cry imba, I think bliz has done a good job thus far on ensuring that all three races are equally "hard" to use at a master level. Mules and to a largely lesser extent chronoboosts don't punish you if you are not dead even on using them. Larvae inject you will not catch back up on if you were 5 seconds late every single time it is a much less forgiving mechanic. Creep is needed! And as a zerg player there is nothing more frustrating than me spreading creep over the entire map and then an observer comes in and he spends 15 seconds killing 15 minutes of creep spread I did. I'd say protoss has better scouting until the late game when i have overlords all over and decent creep spread. Early game scouting is so easy i dont even have a wall and hallucinate, observers, and phoenixes are amazing scouts. We zergs cry imba because it is frustrating how hard we work to get rushed by strong builds. It feels like I have to defend defend defend defend till i get mutas to harass then i defend some more then i can finally fight back when i have 5 bases max upgrades and tons of brood lords | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:22 Maynarde wrote: Nah, but like 4 gates and stim rushes they're pretty much an insta win against a fast expand. Should check it out man, there's a thread on it I think. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190292 those rushes are strong against rine or rine/hellion expands because most terrans dont realize that pressuring the zerg economy and force them to go roaches will always bear a chance that zerg just decides to push; against protoss expands its way harder unless the protoss does not get 2-3 cannons ling roach rushes highly depend on maps - while you can always do a 4 gate everywhere a ling/roach rush is not an option on large 2 player maps and everything but close position on 4 player maps because roach reinforcements will come too late | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
There is for me a clear proof that zerg were not design to be agressive early: their first 3 units have speed upgrades, and two of the three got that upgrade in T2. Scout is the same. The first 7-10 minute are always shaky because of that, unless you all in or overproduce battle units (and underproduce drone by doing so). Zerg needs more apm This is btw one of the most stupid myths that seems to plague this forum. I'm a fairly low apm masters player and I have no problems playing zerg. Actually, this is not dumb at all. Zerg do not need more apm, they have more apm. Producing mass cheap units : pretty easy to understand why your apm goes higher as a zerg. Just watch a replay, and look at a player apm when he morph a bunch of baneling. | ||
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Keula
Germany157 Posts
On March 23 2011 21:37 freetgy wrote: Zerg is not the hardest, but it needs experiance, which comes from playing alot. Like MC playing strong with FF, if you don't know how to prevent that you lose, but if you know what can be done, obviously you will survive and be ahead. Zerg is so much more rewarding. >implying its not way harder to deal with ff as zerg than spamming them as protoss. | ||
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