EPT
.Why most interest in E-sports from non-players? - Page 5
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Kelethius
Canada187 Posts
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MementoMori
Canada419 Posts
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LashLash
Australia28 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:36 Kelethius wrote: guess whatever floats your boat then. If so many people are like that then whose to say whats right and whats wrong do whatever makes you happy. If you guys can get a kick out of sc2 without playing it then thats cool i guess. I still think its weird though .I had a read through, and couldn't find my opinion easily, sorry if this is a repeat. I also agree with Bijan's points. As a low level player, who likes e-sports, and would probably go to an event if my travels coincided with it so that it was convenient, I'd give you my reasons why I enjoy watching it so much. I have a rudimentary knowledge of the game, and play rarely. Even though I don't see what "high level" players see (like yourself Kelethius), I like to see what the pro players do accompanied by the commentary (like in GSL). It all still seems so fast and magical, and I appreciate the mental games going on, even if it has to be explained to me. I even watch BW pro games with korean commentary, those commentators are just made of enthusiasm so you can't help but find it enjoyable. I think what SC and SC2 have, that other games don't, is enthusiasm in commentary, high prize pools and accessibility through it being pushed by organizations (like Kespa, Blizzard and GOM). Also, big names which earn lots of money. What low level players don't have is the time, ability and patience to get good at the game and understand it in depth through experience, whether to diamond or masters or the top 200. So it is so much easier to casually watch a game online, and even attend an event because there are players there that you just admire for their skill. I'd compare it to women in Australia who love watching sports (Rugby comes to mind, along with cricket), but never play themselves. They have no skill in playing the game, know the fundamental rules, and can admire the skill involved. I think Kelethius you are the opposite. You like playing a game, but not spectating so much, probably because you are good at it. But there are others in this world with the complete opposite spectrum. | ||
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Creegz
Canada354 Posts
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fer
Canada375 Posts
Hmm? Why does it make little sense to you? Do you love music? Do you actively try to get a degree in music theory? Do you love movies? Are you a movie director? Do you love x y z? Etc. | ||
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carbon_based
United States46 Posts
think about it if the only people who watched MLB baseball were those playing little league, there wouldn't be much of an audience. but people that played when they were kids have an understanding of the rules and all that it takes to be a good baseball player continue to watch their entire lives, i think that the people that spent their younger days doing zergling rushes or even playing golem defense understand these games, at least to a point, appreciate good competition, and they have an affinity for it, having grown up playing them and around them. whether or not that is the case, these are the type of fans that esports needs to grow and thrive, we can't just be a demographic market of 13-30 yr old nerds, we need all types of people to watch, and really starcraft 1 was arguably the best pc game of the 90s and really holds a place 2nd only to legends like super mario and street fighter in cultural acceptance and popularity, so i think we're on the right track. | ||
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LashLash
Australia28 Posts
On March 20 2011 14:19 fer wrote: Hmm? Why does it make little sense to you? Do you love music? Do you actively try to get a degree in music theory? Do you love movies? Are you a movie director? Do you love x y z? Etc. To flip this on it's head. Do people well versed in music theory have a hard time understanding why people like music if they have little understanding of it? Do movie directors see movies in such a way that they find it hard to see how normal people see movies? It might be that the bias in making that person so skillful, and thus their view of appreciating what they are skilled at, excludes the ability to easily comprehend what makes unskilled people appreciate it? | ||
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ZUR1CH
United States108 Posts
Blizzard did an amazing job of making such a deep game, yet making one that they intentionally made very fun to watch as a spectator. I also think it's easy to recognize Starcraft 2 skill as equally mental and physical (in the sense of reflexes and sheer mouse/keyboard mechanics). Unlike an FPS, Starcraft 2 demands an immense amount of strategy (oh, that's why they call it an RTS) whilst at the same time concentation. FPS's do involve team strategy, but not in the sense that SC2 does. Brilliant game in every way, really. 'Nuff said. | ||
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ZUR1CH
United States108 Posts
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ZUR1CH
United States108 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:36 Kelethius wrote: guess whatever floats your boat then. If so many people are like that then whose to say whats right and whats wrong do whatever makes you happy. If you guys can get a kick out of sc2 without playing it then thats cool i guess. I still think its weird though .Although I play Starcraft a lot and don't fall into this category of those who watch but don't play, I couldn't disagree with you more. It's no different than people who watch any type of sports. It's just a matter of being able to understand something and finding enjoyment in watching its intricacies pan out. It's entertainment. You watch sitcoms, but do you film them? Do you write them? Sure, they are not the same form of entertainment, but both SC2 and sitcoms are, in the most basic sense, forms of entertainment. You do not have to engage in something to enjoy it, and many people who enjoy watching SC2 might not find the same pleasure in playing it (as it can be very frustrating at time -- let's be honest). While I play quite a bit, I can definitely say that I enjoy watching Starcraft 2 more than I enjoy playing it. It's a great game to play, but it can be stressful. Watching it is an easygoing activity and lots of commentators are equally enjoyable to listen to (Tastosis in particular). The more I think about it, the more I realize I really do like the spectator side of SC2 more than the playing side of it. | ||
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ProfessorCold
United States41 Posts
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
he's just confused why...if you love the game so much, why don't you play a lot? and if you do play a lot, why aren't you good? I think its a bit of a faulty logical statement myself, some people just suck no matter how much they try to improve, and I also think part of it is some people don't even try to improve and are happy sucking at the game. Perhaps happy is the wrong word. Content. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 20 2011 07:25 Kelethius wrote: - And just statistically speaking, the majority of people in the sc2 population are NOT diamond+. Theres no physical/mental barrier that has to be broken for anybody on Earth to make it to AT LEAST diamond, or low/mid masters. It just takes playing the game. For me, it seems to me that if people loved the game so much and loved esports so much, they couldnt possibly be in bronze/silver/gold. As someone pointed out above, everyone can't be in the top 20% (ish) of "active" players. I'm a Zerg player in Silver, #3 in a new division with a ton of active players, with a very large number of games played, over 1000. I was in the beta also, firmly in Copper league the entire time, until they removed it. I had no RTS experience when I started, whatsoever, and I lost my first 40 games in a row. Here's the thing: I've not only improved tremendously over the last several months, I'm continuing to improve, rapidly. I'm seeing timings now that were completely off my radar before. My macro is getting pretty solid whereas at the start it didn't exist. I routinely go 40/60 against my high Gold friends but consistently lose to my Diamond friends. I play them, however, to see how they beat me and learn from it. The thing is, the people around me are rapidly improving also, particularly the people who play a lot. Since league boundaries are determined by only the active players, I have to exceed everyone else's performance to get promoted. And, while I destroy some people who clearly don't know what they're doing, my games are uneven. I lose some games that I really shouldn't because I'm careless, or overcommit to an attack, say, or get hit by a really strong timing attack that someone's been practicing over and over, game after game, with no variation for hundreds of games. I absolutely take full responsibility for my losses, nobody else to blame but me, but the fact is that to move ahead of the pack, I have to improve the consistency of my game quite a bit. This is harder than it sounds, because it requires not just learning the basics, but having a good handle on how to avoid being open to the really stupid shit, the six pools, the two raxes, the well-executed build in the hands of someone who does only that build, game after game, regardless of matchup, while I try to vary my build by race and alter what I'm doing based on what I scout. Eventually, in the extreme long run, I expect that I'll have an excellent handle on the game, because I do not take the approach of practicing a single build relentlessly. In any case, playing Zerg, the choices are few -- 7 roach rush every game, or learn a lot of different possible timings to accommodate every matchup and scouted tech choice. This idea that because you're strong at the game that anyone with a pulse is able to get there with the application of willpower is pretty facile. As I say, it really does take outperforming other similarly-situated players who are rapidly improving and playing a ton, just as I am. A month from now, the most active 10% of Silver players, of which I am one, will be enormously better, and I'll be right with them, but it would be pretty egotistical (as well as unsupported by my results so far) to say that I can cleanly pull ahead of them. And, because those most active 10% play so many games, they're most of whom I'll be facing on the ladder. The infrequent players will either catch up fast or get demoted when they do play. Edit: I should point out that every gold or higher player whom I know played BW or WC3 for YEARS. I literally never touched the game. I know there are people with an unusual amount of talent who came to SC2 completely fresh and went straight from Bronze to Diamond or better -- I'd love to meet any of them who were playing Zerg and find out what their deal was. :D | ||
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PackofHighly
United States153 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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kazie
258 Posts
On March 20 2011 07:59 Kelethius wrote: my question is how he could possibly enjoy the game. People here are saying how easy it is to watch sc2 and understand whats going on, when realistically its like complete opposite. What is actually going on in the minds of those players is incredibly difficult to understand. How can you appreciate and find that entertaining when its something completely unknown to someone whose never even played a single game of sc2. Maybe its just sc2 has pretty graphics and explosions are fun to watch, but is that really a reason to watch other games? Nobody is spending time watching like curling or some random sports cause they couldnt give two craps about it. I'm not watching dawn of war games or other games out there cause I dont give a shit about those games and ive never played them. For me watching a dawn of war game is something someone would have to force me to do, and still I would resist greatly. Its a waste of time for me. I hold people who dont play sc2 and watch it to a similar standard. I dont think the comparison between sc2 players and normal sports can be made so easily. Alot of people who are watching sports at least have played it in the past, or its something extremely easily to be impressed by. Like you see a soccer game or something and a guy does those flip kicks and scores a goal, or totally fakes someone out while on the offense or whatever. Its really easy to be like holy shit thats crazy! But alot of what goes on in a game of sc2 that a person having never played the game can relate to or be impressed by. All my gamer friends who I tried to show some videos to get into sc2 found it boring cause "they sit around for 15 minutes then attack and its over", meanwhile im at the edge of my seat when ret makes a round of drones at timing x. I can understand the crazy micro tricks you can see from bw videos, it doesnt even look humanly possible. But realistically that kind of crazy shit is very rare to see even in bw games. Not to say there isnt alot of micro going on in sc2, but its usually subtle shit that people probably think the computer does automatically or something because they do it so smoothly (ie idra surrounding a group of bfh with lings). The biggest things that blow me away from sc2 games is because I put myself in their shoes and freak out when they do this or do that because its like no way that will work. I can relate it to excitement I get watching a poker game on tv and someone doing a bluff, but again its because I have an understanding of whats going on. I guess I kind of see people who dont play sc2 enjoying watching it as something like going to the jungles of Brazil and showing the tribes people phil ivey doing a crazy bluff or something. They would be like, ok who cares about this shit. Which is how I would think people who dont play sc2 would look at a sc2 game. But then I am faced with these people being the majority of the viewing audience and people who post the most about the game??? something doesnt click for me Have you ever seen a football game? It's nowhere as exciting as you describe. The things you described are very rare, and most of the game is spent passing the ball, kicking it across the field, and running. What about baseball? Do the majority of viewers understand how amazing of a mindgame pitcher A was playing on batter B? Probably not unless the commentators call it out. All they see is pitcher A throws, and batter B hits. Half of them probably can't even tell what kind of pitch it was just by looking at the screen. Do I think forcefield micro is more exciting to see than a breaking ball mix up? You bet. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
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PetRockSteve
United States70 Posts
On March 20 2011 09:34 Kelethius wrote: well said. I kinda figured since I play the game more than a whole lot of people and am still too lazy/unwilling to do any of that, what could possibly motivate other people who play far less than me to do much more to support it. Seems like star2 would have to be really damn entertaining that people who dont have enough time to play the game take what little free time they have to go out of their way to support it. It seems to me, that the level of entertainment observing the game would have to provide would require a really indepth understanding of the game, one that is only reached with playing the game alot. If I get more enjoyment from watching the best players play than playing, then I will do so. Also, there is a social aspect to this as well. When I enjoy something, I try to get my friends interested in it as well because it is MUCH more fun to also talk about the games (or insert topic) than to just enjoy it on your own (probably explaining the popularity of sites such as this). Having Starcraft 2 grow also increases the number of people with whom we can discuss Starcraft 2. | ||
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eluv
United States1251 Posts
With all that in mind, it's not hard to see how you can get sucked into the whole thing. I think an even better analogy than Football would be Firefly. When that show got cancelled, you literally had thousands of people petitioning to bring it back, despite none of them being starship captains, or even actors or screenwriters. Just because you don't participate in something, doesn't mean you can't get wrapped up in the drama or story of it. | ||
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