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At least this is what I've been noticing ALOT lately from my regular browsing forums listening to streams/podcasts on TL . Theres alot of "passion" and love for the game that gets thrown around alot on team liquid, at lans, etc. But what seems extremely odd to me, is that all the people who seemingly care the most about the game, and support it the most, are often the ones that play it the least. Let me throw out some recent things that have motivated me to post about this:
- the day9 daily when he said that majority of people who watch his stream don't even play sc2 (during a recent daily last week where he was explaining how to get into sc2)
-Destiny's interview where he talks about a police offer going well out of his way to find starcraft players sponsors (even though he has never played the game, I'll also assume he had no particular personal financial benefit from doing so. Realistically how is a police officer going to benefit from sponsoring a weekly show-match series, think its safe to make this assumption)
- Last state of the game (the live show) first question that was asked from the crowd was about esports, and from a player who the first thing he said was him being in bronze league (see next bullet)
- And just statistically speaking, the majority of people in the sc2 population are NOT diamond+. Theres no physical/mental barrier that has to be broken for anybody on Earth to make it to AT LEAST diamond, or low/mid masters. It just takes playing the game. For me, it seems to me that if people loved the game so much and loved esports so much, they couldnt possibly be in bronze/silver/gold.
I really like sc2 (not gonna say I "love" the game). So I play the game alot. Usually 1-3 hours a day depending on my school schedule with exams or what not. I rarely analyze my replays, I have no friends that play the game, no practice partners, and I've never had a problem being in at least mid level of the highest league. I know this is gonna sound like "ohh hes making the thread to tell people how good he is" or something like that. The only reason I'm saying this is because I'm not special, im a shitty player (only difference between me and a bronze league player is that I play more). I'm not in love with sc2, I just enjoy the game. I would never go to a LAN event to spectate, or go to a blizcon, or do anything revolving around sc2 that is outside my bedroom. What is so crazy for me is that while I'm sitting around watching some casts or games, I always hear about the people talking about the love for esports or trying to grow esports, and just demographically speaking alot of these questions are from people from the lowest leagues, who are there not because they suck at games, but because they dont play the game.
What I guess this really stems down to is perhaps something wrong on my end. I see love for the game and time spent playing it as extremely strongly positively correlated (people who love it the most, play it the most). But anytime I watch a podcast or stream, or interview or whatever type of video coverage, the people making the most effort to go out and ask questions, talk to streamers/players in person, make comments about esports and love for the game, always seem to be the lowest level players (or non-players all together). I sit around wondering why all these posts about growth of e-sports arent made from the very top players, who are effected most by it.Rarely(if ever) do you see pro players, or even players in top200 of any server commenting on growth of esports or where they want it to be (most of the threads you will see from these caliber of players is about balance, which is also something that effects them the most). I can almost say with certainty that the smallest percentage of people going to sc2 events are masters league players (based on questions asked, and my projection of personal biases).
What do you guys think of this? Whats going on here? Why do people who hardly play the game(or not at all) care about it?
Obviously my post is filled with generalizations,I'm probably overgeneralizing alot, but even then, the question can be asked on an individual level, what motivates that bronze league player to go out and pay to see an event, watch a game he barely plays, and ask questions to top tiered players of the game what they think about x and y about the game. Even though I'm probably exaggerating the fact that perhaps the most interest or a majority of interest comes from non-players (non players in the sense I use is intended to encompass people who rarely play 1v1's on sc2).
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Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Do you really think that majority of korean BW audience actively plays the game ? If you want something to become big, you have to hit people not actively interested in it already, look at Wii, The Sims and similar stuff, they got huge because they targeted people who normally don't buy stuff like that.
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On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this
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On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Exactly this.
Also you are saying that it is not problem to get to diamond if you try (and i agree) BUT I know many people who just play the game really casually to the point where they are not wanting to get promoted, they just like to play for fun in their silver/gold league.
edit: and to compare it to football - some who watch will go play for fun with friends, but will never actually train to improve
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On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this
Thats makes equally little sense to me
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On March 20 2011 07:31 smetson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Exactly this. Also you are saying that it is not problem to get to diamond if you try (and i agree) BUT I know many people who just play the game really casually to the point where they are not wanting to get promoted, they just like to play for fun in their silver/gold league.edit: and to compare it to football - some who watch will go play for fun with friends, but will never actually train to improve
Thats the thing though, I understand if you just chill and play a few solos here and there im not trying to downplay people who play sc2 like that. But really these chill casual players arent the ones making all the noise at sc2 events or on forums/stream chats talking about wanting to grow esports. And its the ones that are that puzzle me and have lead to me making this thread.
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it's a matter of entertainment. I have a friend that looks many games (GSL, TSL, etc...) and he's not EVEN playing the game. We sometimes discuss the game and all, and we actually have fun doing it. Oh and yeah im having fun in my golden league.
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That is good, because it shows that SC2 is easy enough to understand the basics even if you dont play it. Does that sound familiar? Yea that is how real life sports fans are too, most fans you see on stands are out of shape, bald, white guys (not that we in SC2 are that, we are long haired, ripped, handsome nerds ofc =D).
Some games that tried esports like WoW Arena could never garner interest outside of the people who actually did Arena and understood what was going on.
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StarCraft 2 is a game that is designed to be fun to watch. Many people do not have time to play that much but still enoy the game a lot, making them to watch pro games. I'm a silver player, and it seems almost impossible to me to reach even the Platinum league. It took me like 300 games to go from bronze to silver, and will probably take me even more before reaching gold. That's why wathcing eSports is so interesting to me, because I'm always impressed by their style of play, by their talent. It somehow captivates me. Moreover, it is really more fun to see those people making big strategic decisions then playing ladder, making tons of mistakes, feeling bad about those mistakes, and seeing my opponent make a lot too. And yeah, this is like anyone watching football, or hockey, or any other sport. Most of the watchers cannot play those sports correctly.
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I think the ability to enjoy a game like SC2 does not stem from ability to play the game; I'd argue that even all the chobos you are talking about that barely/don't play the game have at least played the game a few times, and have rudimentary understandings of what's going on. In essence, to enjoy watching, you dont need to play, and if they are enjoying it then what's the big deal.
Personally, playing 1v1 sort of stresses me out; I've always been a team game kind of guy, so I have tons of 2v2 3v3 4v4 games, and only like 40 1v1 games. Sometimes watching others duke it out is more fun then watching ur noob butt get owned :p
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On March 20 2011 07:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this Thats makes equally little sense to me
So enjoying something you cant necessarily do wonderfully doesnt make sense? Im not wonderful at starcraft, i lack multi tasking skills and for some reason i get nervous as heck every time i play the game. I LOVE Starcraft 2. I play it a lot. I watch it even more. You dont have to be amazing at something to enjoy it.
To me thats like saying if you aren't a renown chef who knows how to cook gourmet meals, then you cant enjoy them.
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Most people who love this game are low level players, but that's just because there are a lot more people in bronze league than in high masters league, not because the master leaguers love the game less. After all among the players active in the last 2 weeks, about 3% are in master league and about 47% are in bronze, so it's hardly surprising that the latter group is much more visible.
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I don't have any motivation to get good at this game.
I do play other games competitively (for a certain value of competitive anyway), but I like watching SC2. Whole point of sport, really.
I think it's a good thing that SC2 esports isn't just a phenomenon isolated to hardcore players.
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On March 20 2011 07:36 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:31 smetson wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Exactly this. Also you are saying that it is not problem to get to diamond if you try (and i agree) BUT I know many people who just play the game really casually to the point where they are not wanting to get promoted, they just like to play for fun in their silver/gold league.edit: and to compare it to football - some who watch will go play for fun with friends, but will never actually train to improve Thats the thing though, I understand if you just chill and play a few solos here and there im not trying to downplay people who play sc2 like that. But really these chill casual players arent the ones making all the noise at sc2 events or on forums/stream chats talking about wanting to grow esports. And its the ones that are that puzzle me and have lead to me making this thread.
Who said they aren't? I know plenty of silver/gold leaguers that don't play but watch streams and games and tourneys all the time.
So, I'm not the best swimmer in the world, I'm not even close to the top 20%, yet I love swimming. This mean I can't look for swimming tourneys despite not training at all? This means I can't support swimming tourneys and teams, because I simply don't train?
Just because someone isn't trying hard at this game, doesn't mean he can't support it.
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Because people who are actually good at the game are too busy PLAYING the game rather than watching streams or wasting time on forums.
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hey i kinda stopped playing the game but i still watch it cuz its FUN
beside being good at sc2 is just too much work for little gain, i mean when i try to play good i m not having any fun anymore =( i m just punching those keys as fast as possible. this is alot of people dont come to rts and stick to FPS.
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what's going on is that starcraft has an appeal you can only compare to sports. every other game i've played, the only people who want to watch it do so because they're good and want to compare skill. starcraft is just an awesome thing to both play and watch, and you don't have to do both to fall in love with it. there's plenty of people who play but don't like to watch other people play either. it's just a great game like that.
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For me, I can never find it fun to play a game for more than 3-4 hours in a row. I'm a good learner. And I truly think I could go competitive if that blockade was removed. But what about my life then? In my family, everyone is well-educated and have a good job. But I don't think my parents would hate me if I chose the E-sports player route.
I love E-sports. So that's why I try to contribute to E-sports in a different way. I'm in charge of all the E-sports tournaments at a local lan, And I try everytime we have a meeting to get the "head admins" to pump in more money for E-sports. And sometimes it works. Hell, even next lan will have seats for 500 + gamers and Hopefully a prize pool, (Spread across 3-4 games ) to around 20000 $.
I'm currently trying to make Starcraft II the main title of the lan. But that's not going as well as i thought ;-( . Anyway, I don't play alot. I can play maybe 1-2 hours a day. But im only Plat- Diamond. So, I'm not making a difference to the SC2 scene. yet.
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On March 20 2011 07:40 Tyree wrote:
That is good, because it shows that SC2 is easy enough to understand the basics even if you dont play it. Does that sound familiar? Yea that is how real life sports fans are too, most fans you see on stands are out of shape, bald, white guys (not that we in SC2 are that, we are long haired, ripped, handsome nerds ofc =D).
Some games that tried esports like WoW Arena could never garner interest outside of the people who actually did Arena and understood what was going on.
That's a pretty good point. It takes an incredible amount of knowledge just to understand what goes on in a basic 3v3 arena match (names and types of abilities, the class using them, the dynamics of the matchup, the context in which said abilities are used, the attempt by one player to predict the other team's actions, etc.), whereas most SC2 battles can be explained in a sentence or two. WoW is virtually impossible to cast live, with any degree of coherency, while SC2 is fairly easy to cast by comparison - mostly because there's only two players as opposed to six.
I mean, when some WoW classes have more abilities than there are units in all of SC2, you have an enormous obstacle to generating non-player interest.
Finally, there's the practical reality that mechanics are vastly more important than strategic insight in SC2. Most people who find the game interesting but don't play frequently (or at all) are probably just too busy to train their mechanics to a level where they can effectively utilize their understanding of the game, but that doesn't dilute their intellectual, abstract interest in it.
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On March 20 2011 07:38 tattoos and creep wrote:
it's a matter of entertainment. I have a friend that looks many games (GSL, TSL, etc...) and he's not EVEN playing the game. We sometimes discuss the game and all, and we actually have fun doing it. Oh and yeah im having fun in my golden league.
my question is how he could possibly enjoy the game. People here are saying how easy it is to watch sc2 and understand whats going on, when realistically its like complete opposite. What is actually going on in the minds of those players is incredibly difficult to understand. How can you appreciate and find that entertaining when its something completely unknown to someone whose never even played a single game of sc2. Maybe its just sc2 has pretty graphics and explosions are fun to watch, but is that really a reason to watch other games? Nobody is spending time watching like curling or some random sports cause they couldnt give two craps about it. I'm not watching dawn of war games or other games out there cause I dont give a shit about those games and ive never played them. For me watching a dawn of war game is something someone would have to force me to do, and still I would resist greatly. Its a waste of time for me. I hold people who dont play sc2 and watch it to a similar standard.
I dont think the comparison between sc2 players and normal sports can be made so easily. Alot of people who are watching sports at least have played it in the past, or its something extremely easily to be impressed by. Like you see a soccer game or something and a guy does those flip kicks and scores a goal, or totally fakes someone out while on the offense or whatever. Its really easy to be like holy shit thats crazy! But alot of what goes on in a game of sc2 that a person having never played the game can relate to or be impressed by. All my gamer friends who I tried to show some videos to get into sc2 found it boring cause "they sit around for 15 minutes then attack and its over", meanwhile im at the edge of my seat when ret makes a round of drones at timing x. I can understand the crazy micro tricks you can see from bw videos, it doesnt even look humanly possible. But realistically that kind of crazy shit is very rare to see even in bw games. Not to say there isnt alot of micro going on in sc2, but its usually subtle shit that people probably think the computer does automatically or something because they do it so smoothly (ie idra surrounding a group of bfh with lings). The biggest things that blow me away from sc2 games is because I put myself in their shoes and freak out when they do this or do that because its like no way that will work. I can relate it to excitement I get watching a poker game on tv and someone doing a bluff, but again its because I have an understanding of whats going on. I guess I kind of see people who dont play sc2 enjoying watching it as something like going to the jungles of Brazil and showing the tribes people phil ivey doing a crazy bluff or something. They would be like, ok who cares about this shit. Which is how I would think people who dont play sc2 would look at a sc2 game. But then I am faced with these people being the majority of the viewing audience and people who post the most about the game??? something doesnt click for me
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On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
I like football. But I only kick with some friends maybe once every 2-3 months. But I'd say I watch at least 2 games a week (when CL/EL is up more). I meet with my friends, we drink beer & have fun. Or we chat on Teamspeak / IRC while the games are happening.
It's similiar for SC2. When I play I play with friends (XvX (with X > 1)) or we play 1on1s against each other and the other guys watch while badmannering our bad playstyle on TS (or joke about race imbalance "Z OP" "T OP" "P OP"). But we also watch some stuff together (GSL finals, 1st round of TSL, ...).
(Our group is made up from Bronze - Diamond guys).
Watching stuff together, while drinking & joking around is more fun for us, compared to each one playing alone.
On a more personal note - I'm feel that I get older (25+). It's just more exhausting to play than to watch (I need to take a break after 1hour of playing 1on1s). I kinda miss those days when I could play 8hours straight without taking a break 
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is more fun to watch a stream of sc2 then actually learn how to play the game from a beginners perspective
why?
because it's more entertaining in accordance to time spent.
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Also, I wasnt trying to target this thread at people who watch sc2 occasionally on a stream or VODs on their computers, but more-so about the people who go out of their way to go to physical sc2 events and whatnot, and the people who are walking around talking about wanting to spread esports and their love of esports, who im assuming arent the people who casually play the game and watch the latest big tournament or catch someones stream when they have some free time
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On March 20 2011 07:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this Thats makes equally little sense to me
How good you are at something =/= how much you like it.
Somebody could play a lot and not be very good, and still be in bronze. Somebody could play VERY little and be in diamond. The bronze player could love the game more than the diamond player. My only point is that you can be in a low league and still love the game.
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my question is how he could possibly enjoy the game. People here are saying how easy it is to watch sc2 and understand whats going on, when realistically its like complete opposite. What is actually going on in the minds of those players is incredibly difficult to understand. How can you appreciate and find that entertaining when its something completely unknown to someone whose never even played a single game of sc2.
Well my friend did play a few RTSes before, work/girlfriend/babies keeps him away from playing videogames a lot, or even a few sadly... I think sc2 lures many watchers is due to the fact that it is (supposed to be?) a well balanced game (and i'll go further saying "RTS") and we have to be honest sc2 have often awesome commentators 
You know, sc2 and BW before are cool games, people like to watch it, play it, abuse it! because it's so good! We all need to have those kinda things i think, like football or rugby, strippers, rodeo riders being roflstomped by angry cows... also, girls korean bands singing before an unbalanced game, no i mean... you dont want to be trampled by a cow of course, but admit its fun to watch someone actually enjoying it. Okay guys im stoned im starting to speak non sense.
My point is, watching is easier than actually doing. But its still fun.
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I barely play Starcraft 2, it might go months from one game to the next.
But I LOVE following Starcraft 2 as a sport. As I do with Football, American Football, Hockey, Cycling, almost every winter sport, Tennis, Track & Field etc etc
I play these sports in the same fashion I do Starcraft, casually. It might go months, years between. I still LOVE them.
I need to follow sports as much as I need to breathe.
Problem is a little something called time, I can't juggle all of my passions plus work, sleep and everything else going on in life.
If I had infinite time I would be awesome at everything I love, but I don't and that's the reason I don't play.
Edit: And yeah, I am one of those guys going around talking about wanting to spread esports.
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[citation needed]
The entire OP is based on an unproven, purely anecdotal premise.
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I think it's alot like a real sport, alot of people love to watch hockey or whatever sport and have never played it in anyway or very little, as for me I play tons of different sports and don't really enjoy watching them unless its at a buddies house with some drinks. Otherwise even though I played hockey for years I never enjoyed watching it, the only sport I do really enjoy watching is lacrosse and that isn't on often at all. So SC2 seems to have a similiar thing where it is a very interesting thing to observe and see what will happen next, and even feel strongly for one team I.E. an actual team like OGS or just a race you route for like Zerg or even a player you really feel strongly about like Mc, or July. It is really the same as an actual sport in how people watch the game, alot watch not as many play
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Doesn't take an artist to appreciate a beautiful painting.
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At least my friends who dont own the game but still watch streams/VODs tell me they are just hyped up over Esports in general and SC2 is the biggest boy on the block right now. They also follow the ETF2L(European Team fortress 2 Leauge) without playing the game, simply because its easy to get hyped up crisp play.
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On March 20 2011 08:34 hmunkey wrote:
[citation needed]
The entire OP is based on an unproven, purely anecdotal premise.
NO citation needed, thats totally true
Look at Husky and HD, do you think that their incredible amount of subscribers all play SC2? Let alone at a high level? Frankly, i never liked them very much because im more hardcore and i want to improve, which is the same mindset as a majority of people here. It entertains them, simply.
I dont watch regular sports because they dont entertain me, but i watched sc2 before i ever played the game (and i never played BW), and i enjoyed it. You have to remove your bias and accept that people dont need to play it to like it.
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A friend of mine never played Starcraft 2 (he is into gaming in general though) but he watches the game a lot (GSL and such).
I played the game for a while, but I barely played for the last two months or so. Basically, I don't play anymore, but I still watch the game, because it's entertaining.
Also, the friend I mentioned has quite some knowledge about the game just from watching. He can understand quite a lot of what's going on without ever having played the game.
I don't really see why it's hard to understand that people who don't play the game (or don't play much) like watching it. It's entertaining, so people watch it. It's as simple as that.
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Football stadiums dont fill up with athletes you know...
Frankly, after reading all the OP messages I dont think it is possible to make him understand it, looks like he is above the average understanding level to the point of neglecting valid reasons. I have a friend like that, Imposible to reason.
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As long as you understand how the game works, you can REALLY enjoy watching it. My friend is the perfect example. He has played Halo, and Starcraft a couple times, never really getting into Starcraft. Yet he a Fanboy 101 when it comes to watching MLG Halo or GSL Starcraft tournaments. He has his favourite moments, fav. teams, and fav. players. He follows it all religiously.
It's just plain entertaining to watch the best of the best play, seeing insane micro/macro at work is really enjoyable . Some BM lulz is always fun too.
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Most people don't play the sports they watch, even casually. Why should it be different for sc2?
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I only play around 1 game a week but I watch hours upon hours of streams and games. Just today + yesterday I watched the FXOpen qualifier, GSL championship, TSL3, justin.tv invitational and some other streams. I'm only in silver league and playing the game just isn't as fun as watching it for me. When I'm playing I don't get a rush like I do watching when two players are multitasking and microing and macroing all at the same time. I get supply blocked, end up with a trust fund and forget to build units a lot and it's not fun to have to play a ton in order to get better.
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If you look at Bronze and Silver league players a lot of them actually have pretty surprising amounts of games played actually. I think its just a different mind set, some people play to get better always ( I am this way ). Some people can have fun just kind of messing around and aren't bothered as much at being semi-stagnant I guess. I personally just can't have fun if I don't feel like I'm always improving and aiming for the top. I've seen plenty of low ranked players though whenever I enter custom games who have over 1000 or even 2000 1v1 ladder games played and their sitting in Gold league or even lower while there are many people in my Masters division with under 500 1v1 ladder games played ( myself included ).
Anyways my point is, don't discount someones time investment solely on their league, some people just aren't really concerned much with becoming high level players.
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I dont know if you can compare a group of people who have never played sc2 finding a stream/vod entertaining to a group of people who have never played sc2 going to blizzcon or random sc2 lans
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There's a lot to love about sc2 without playing it really heavily. As earlier posts pointed out, plenty of people around the world are not very coordinated/particularly physically fit/have any innate skill at a sport, yet they may follow a team enthusiastically, buy tickets to watch games for thousands of dollars in person, spend hours on their fantasy teams, and enthusiastically post discussion and debate about games.
Anything that invites people to come together to have fun viewing (not just playing) and participating in a community has a great possibility of attracting many followers who 'love' the game, but aren't very good at themselves. Not everyone can be masters/diamond. Anyone who takes the time to watch some commentary can pick up the idea of how the game works without becoming a pro at it. The commentators have a good understanding of the game and can explain to people all the subtle things you claim someone who doesn't play can never fully appreciate. That is fully enough to watch something like the TSL and be blown away by the excitement and epicness of the games. You can spend lots of time watching something like that, playing some casual team games, and interacting with people in streams and chats.
For many people, 1v1 ladder is kind of scary and daunting to start out on. They are having fun where they're at, and see no reason to go into all the hard work of being the diamond/master level player you suggest people who love the game will end up being. It would be great if everyone played, but there's not one narrow way to enjoy the game of sc2, and that's part of what's so wonderful about it.
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i'm sorry but the OP stinks of elitist crap. I'm a HUGE fan of e-sports. Why do I have to be awesome at SC to enjoy it. Just because I can not technically manage all of those things you spoke of: Drone timing, micro, etc. doesn't mean I can't understand them when they are being done. Also its an entirely false statement that everyone with half a brain can reach masters. Masters is 2% of the population. 2% can never be 40% much less 90%. Your posts show that maybe you can play SC well but you seem to lack the ability to reason. Makes me question your age.
-Cent
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The OP seems to be lumping liking to play SC2 (by this I mean playing to improve in 1v1) and liking to watch SC2 into "liking SC2" just because they are the same game, but playing SC2 and watching SC2 pretty much have nothing in common. Playing SC2 to improve is hard work, often stressful, and very mentally demanding. It's cutthroat and often takes a long time to feel any effect from your practice. Watching SC2 just needs you to kick back, drink some bear semen and watch Tastosis make god of war jokes. It's definitely not stressful--the opposite in fact, you can chill with a bunch of friends and no one loses, and you start laughing, cheering, etc as soon as you turn on the stream. Besides the fact that SC2 is involved in both, the activities are totally different. A bunch of people enjoy both, but I don't think it's so hard to see why a bunch of people who really enjoy watching SC2 and promoting SC2 events don't enjoy playing SC2, and vice versa, considering the attitudes and mindset you need to really enjoy getting your ass kicked over and over on battle.net isn't the most common thing in the world.
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On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Do you really think that majority of korean BW audience actively plays the game ? If you want something to become big, you have to hit people not actively interested in it already, look at Wii, The Sims and similar stuff, they got huge because they targeted people who normally don't buy stuff like that.
What really interests me a lot is WHY does everyone wanna make esports big? Im not trolling im just wondering what the personal motivation with everyone is? I certainly enjoy watching streams, gsl and all but i dont really see esports being huge as an important thing...
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I have to agree with the rest of the thread. The OPs empathy has taken a dive off the deep end.
I started watching a few games of SC2 here and there, my computers werent up to scratch to play the game properly. But Im a pretty smart guy, and I have played a few RTS games before. It didnt take much of an effort (none really) on my part to figure out how the game worked, what worked against what, who was awesome (early Fruitdealer was a complete and utter baller). I had played the game one night with my friend. We started off so drunk, none of us remember borrowing computers to play, 7 hours later we had 30 2v2s played, placing us square in silver league. I kept watching VODs, but not playing for another two months. Switching over from husky/HD to day9/GSL. Without even playing the game, my understanding had advanced far enough to no longer appreciate the "lower" forms of commentary. SC2 is very easy to watch, even if youve never touched actual game play.
Im now 294 league games deep since late november and Im trying to push myself into the diamond league. I started off absolutely terrible at both overall apm, mechanics, multitasking, macro and micro, but not game sense.
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Ive been through a few periods of exams and heavy studies since the realease of SC2 - and each time I spend a couple weeks away from the game, I feel like my ability to play ladder is really shredded by the absence.
But I can still find 1-2 hours a night to chill and watch some vods of GSL of whatever stream is on.
When I have a busy day, I dont feel like playing a stressful game (which is difficult unless you are mass gaming and "get" every matchup and map at that period of the meta game), but I always feel like watching some to unwind.
TL;DR - Playing is stressful, watching is entertaining.
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On March 20 2011 07:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this Thats makes equally little sense to me
how? consider UFC, how many ppl who watch are into(actual participation) MMA or sparing even? 1/100?
doesnt seem so bad now.
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On March 20 2011 07:25 Kelethius wrote:
- And just statistically speaking, the majority of people in the sc2 population are NOT diamond+. Theres no physical/mental barrier that has to be broken for anybody on Earth to make it to AT LEAST diamond, or low/mid masters. It just takes playing the game. For me, it seems to me that if people loved the game so much and loved esports so much, they couldnt possibly be in bronze/silver/gold.
Given that diamond and masters represents the top 20% of the playerbase, how exactly is it possible for "everyone" to be in said top 20%?
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On March 20 2011 08:48 Usagi wrote:
Football stadiums dont fill up with athletes you know...
Frankly, after reading all the OP messages I dont think it is possible to make him understand it, looks like he is above the average understanding level to the point of neglecting valid reasons. I have a friend like that, Imposible to reason.
cause if you think about it, it doesnt make any sense. Maybe your the one lacking reason.
I am saying "why do people who dont play sc2 go to sc2 events and go crazy about the game" and you say, "happens in football too, therefore your argument is invalid". Your missing the point.
I think its crazy on both levels, although theres a huge difference entertainment wise between watcing someone throwing a 70 yard touchdown or w/e and someone getting a 200/200 army in 14 minutes. I doubt chess has a following of people who watch it that have never played chess, and as expected, no non-chess players are parading around the internet and going to chess events trying to promote the popularity of the game and other board games. But thats what happens in sc2. I dont think you can use the football/other mainstream sport analogy with sc2. At least not in the same way you can with sc2 and chess.
Maybe thats why people dont understand my argument. I'm looking at sc2 == chess. not sc2 == football (or insert any game understandable by a 4 yearold).
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On March 20 2011 09:01 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Do you really think that majority of korean BW audience actively plays the game ? If you want something to become big, you have to hit people not actively interested in it already, look at Wii, The Sims and similar stuff, they got huge because they targeted people who normally don't buy stuff like that. What really interests me a lot is WHY does everyone wanna make esports big? Im not trolling im just wondering what the personal motivation with everyone is? I certainly enjoy watching streams, gsl and all but i dont really see esports being huge as an important thing...
this is basically what im trying to get at... Why do people who dont play these damn games want everyone to like them??
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Chess isn't entertaining to watch. Starcraft is. Also, I would argue that a football player would argue that there are intricacies and movements that the average viewer would never understand.
I agree though, I don't think you can be reasoned with.
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On March 20 2011 09:06 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:34 Kelethius wrote:On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this Thats makes equally little sense to me how? consider UFC, how many ppl who watch are into(actual participation) MMA or sparing even? 1/100? doesnt seem so bad now.
See my last post where the I feel the proper "sc2 to real life event" analogy is made.
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On March 20 2011 07:25 Kelethius wrote:
So I play the game alot. Usually 1-3 hours a day...
You do realize that 1-3 hours might be the full amount of leisure time some people have to spend in a day, right?
I could play SC2 a lot more, and when I first got it I did. Then as the pro scene got better and better, I decided that my love for the game went beyond simply playing it. I loved watching the best players demonstrate the highest level of skill. Do I wish I could play more? Of course, but I also don't have the time to play and watch the GSL, TSL3, IEM, MLG, Dreamhack, Team Leagues, Show Matches, player streams, TL forums, the list goes on.
Who are you to decide what constitutes as "loving the game"?
To go back to the quote from the top of the post, you're assuming(or I'm assuming you're assuming) that your skill comes from your love of the game, when in fact it just stems from your amount of disposable time.
Edit: This didn't address the OP fully so I'll add a bit, although I guess it should be implied.
If I love watching pro SC2, it is in my best interest to see the community grow. The more people watch, the more money is involved. The more money involved, the harder the players work to get it. The harder the players work, the better quality the games become. And therein lies all the e-sports advocacy. We just want to see even better games then we're already seeing, because we love watching the pros play.
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Probably because a lot of people do appreciate the amount of skill it takes to play at a pro level in sc2, much like the amount of skill it takes to play in the NFL for example. You seem to think that everyone who doesn't play SC2 at the highest level just can't possibly understand the amount of skill a pro player has and I don't understand that at all. Yea watching some guy making a 1 handed catch in the NFL is impressive, but so is watching some Korean kid split 50 marines into 10 equal groups of 5 in like 3 seconds. It doesn't take a pro to realize that takes some incredible hand speed and coordination. Also just the sheer amount of strategy and understanding required to keep up in a pro lvl match is crazy, its like having to be the coach and the player at the same time because you are the one calling the plays so to speak.
I don't know why you think people have to play the game at the highest levels to understand it(or at least think they do). Fuck man people sit and debate football for hours on end on ESPN and some of them have never even played the damn game at all. I know several people who will yell at an NFL coach until their face turns red but they never even stepped foot on a football field. My point is, you don't have to actually play anything at the highest level to appreciate the quality of it ( though I do think you might appreciate and understand it more if you did ).
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I think so far NuKeD is the only person to understand why I posted this thread. Maybe I made it too obscure, and unfortunately I let it go completely off topic by talking about a completely unrelated issue.
Sorry.
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On March 20 2011 09:01 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Do you really think that majority of korean BW audience actively plays the game ? If you want something to become big, you have to hit people not actively interested in it already, look at Wii, The Sims and similar stuff, they got huge because they targeted people who normally don't buy stuff like that. What really interests me a lot is WHY does everyone wanna make esports big? Im not trolling im just wondering what the personal motivation with everyone is? I certainly enjoy watching streams, gsl and all but i dont really see esports being huge as an important thing...
Partially because it's something we consider more entertaining than your average tv/movie/sport we don't like as much as other sport.
And partially because we love the community, the casters are fundamentally nice people, the players aren't unreachable as opposed to professional golf players, (for example) it's a nice feeling to be connected to something in that way on a personal level.
That's all I've got for now, but those are a couple of major reasons i in particular, enjoy watching professional SC more than playing it.
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This thread is silly. Like borderline socially retarded silly. The entire concept of sport is based on people watching other people play; these aren't athletes trying to please the gods with their Starcraft skills so that the year's grain harvest will be plentiful, they're playing a sport for people to watch. First line of the first post pretty much owned the entire thread.
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On March 20 2011 09:11 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 09:01 NukeD wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Do you really think that majority of korean BW audience actively plays the game ? If you want something to become big, you have to hit people not actively interested in it already, look at Wii, The Sims and similar stuff, they got huge because they targeted people who normally don't buy stuff like that. What really interests me a lot is WHY does everyone wanna make esports big? Im not trolling im just wondering what the personal motivation with everyone is? I certainly enjoy watching streams, gsl and all but i dont really see esports being huge as an important thing... this is basically what im trying to get at... Why do people who dont play these damn games want everyone to like them??
Because its their choice?
I honestly don't see your point here.
You are saying that only the x amount of the the player base is allowed to want the game to become bigger?
I am in bronze, have not played a match in months and pay my monthly premium account for the GSL.
Why do i want it to become big? Cause i think its cool and it would give "gamers" a better name in general.
I want it to become bigger then just playing some games in front of your screen in your mothers basement with the lights turned out, thats why.
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On March 20 2011 07:25 Kelethius wrote:
I always hear about the people talking about the love for esports or trying to grow esports, and just demographically speaking alot of these questions are from people from the lowest leagues, who are there not because they suck at games, but because they dont play the game.
Dude. Do you realize what the term e-sports MEANS???? E-sports means electronic sports, or video games played competitively, on the level of athletic sports i.e. basketball baseball etc.
So, all of those bronze noobies and people who dont play as often as you (good god man get out of the house), and yet are watching live broadcasts and games and rooting for players in the GSL... furthering e-sports without really playing... They are just like basketball or baseball fans.
A HUGE part of sports, perhaps the biggest in some countries like America, is the viewing pleasure to be had for the spectator. Why must you miss this point- that starcraft CAN be on the level of athletic sports, and be appreciated as a spectator sport???
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I haven't played a game in over a month now.
Watching is far, far more entertaining for me. And there isn't time to watch all the great games nowadays, and still have time to play on my own.
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On March 20 2011 07:25 Kelethius wrote:
At least this is what I've been noticing ALOT lately from my regular browsing forums listening to streams/podcasts on TL . Theres alot of "passion" and love for the game that gets thrown around alot on team liquid, at lans, etc. But what seems extremely odd to me, is that all the people who seemingly care the most about the game, and support it the most, are often the ones that play it the least. Let me throw out some recent things that have motivated me to post about this:
- the day9 daily when he said that majority of people who watch his stream don't even play sc2 (during a recent daily last week where he was explaining how to get into sc2)
-Destiny's interview where he talks about a police offer going well out of his way to find starcraft players sponsors (even though he has never played the game, I'll also assume he had no particular personal financial benefit from doing so. Realistically how is a police officer going to benefit from sponsoring a weekly show-match series, think its safe to make this assumption)
- Last state of the game (the live show) first question that was asked from the crowd was about esports, and from a player who the first thing he said was him being in bronze league (see next bullet)
- And just statistically speaking, the majority of people in the sc2 population are NOT diamond+. Theres no physical/mental barrier that has to be broken for anybody on Earth to make it to AT LEAST diamond, or low/mid masters. It just takes playing the game. For me, it seems to me that if people loved the game so much and loved esports so much, they couldnt possibly be in bronze/silver/gold.
I really like sc2 (not gonna say I "love" the game). So I play the game alot. Usually 1-3 hours a day depending on my school schedule with exams or what not. I rarely analyze my replays, I have no friends that play the game, no practice partners, and I've never had a problem being in at least mid level of the highest league. I know this is gonna sound like "ohh hes making the thread to tell people how good he is" or something like that. The only reason I'm saying this is because I'm not special, im a shitty player (only difference between me and a bronze league player is that I play more). I'm not in love with sc2, I just enjoy the game. I would never go to a LAN event to spectate, or go to a blizcon, or do anything revolving around sc2 that is outside my bedroom. What is so crazy for me is that while I'm sitting around watching some casts or games, I always hear about the people talking about the love for esports or trying to grow esports, and just demographically speaking alot of these questions are from people from the lowest leagues, who are there not because they suck at games, but because they dont play the game.
What I guess this really stems down to is perhaps something wrong on my end. I see love for the game and time spent playing it as extremely strongly positively correlated (people who love it the most, play it the most). But anytime I watch a podcast or stream, or interview or whatever type of video coverage, the people making the most effort to go out and ask questions, talk to streamers/players in person, make comments about esports and love for the game, always seem to be the lowest level players (or non-players all together). I sit around wondering why all these posts about growth of e-sports arent made from the very top players, who are effected most by it.Rarely(if ever) do you see pro players, or even players in top200 of any server commenting on growth of esports or where they want it to be (most of the threads you will see from these caliber of players is about balance, which is also something that effects them the most). I can almost say with certainty that the smallest percentage of people going to sc2 events are masters league players (based on questions asked, and my projection of personal biases).
What do you guys think of this? Whats going on here? Why do people who hardly play the game(or not at all) care about it?
Obviously my post is filled with generalizations,I'm probably overgeneralizing alot, but even then, the question can be asked on an individual level, what motivates that bronze league player to go out and pay to see an event, watch a game he barely plays, and ask questions to top tiered players of the game what they think about x and y about the game. Even though I'm probably exaggerating the fact that perhaps the most interest or a majority of interest comes from non-players (non players in the sense I use is intended to encompass people who rarely play 1v1's on sc2).
I've not launched a single game for 1 month now, so I believe I can answer this question quite well.
Obviously, there are different kind of players having stopped to play but keeping an eye on the E-sports scene.
I myself used to play quite a lot during the Beta, and also after the release of the game.
Topped my diamond division during the Beta, got into Master league a few days after the league was launched.... But soon after that I started to get bored of the game and was also lacking of time to train enough in order to remain at the top of my master league...
There are, I believe, 3 reasons why I keep watching pro-VOD. First of, since I understand the game quite well, it has entertainment value for me, I watch them like I would watch a movie... Secondly, I like to watch pro replay since I'm hoping to see new strats, more relying on hardcore micro and harass, which would motivate me to make a come-back... Thirdly, well, guess I'm a little bit addict, I've plaid and watched a lot of War3, after that plaid and watched a lot of BW as well, now that I'm in my early 20 I'm not that enthousiastic about e-Sports anymore, nor am I that interested in video-games in general, but for some reason I keep on launching WCR, TL and watching almost all GSL VOD... I believe that it will take me a few more years before completly breaking all bounds with gaming.
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i love the esports personalities and the BW-esports, ergo i do not play sc2
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On March 20 2011 09:18 Bijan wrote:
If I love watching pro SC2, it is in my best interest to see the community grow. The more people watch, the more money is involved. The more money involved, the harder the players work to get it. The harder the players work, the better quality the games become. And therein lies all the e-sports advocacy. We just want to see even better games then we're already seeing, because we love watching the pros play.
well said.
I kinda figured since I play the game more than a whole lot of people and am still too lazy/unwilling to do any of that, what could possibly motivate other people who play far less than me to do much more to support it. Seems like star2 would have to be really damn entertaining that people who dont have enough time to play the game take what little free time they have to go out of their way to support it. It seems to me, that the level of entertainment observing the game would have to provide would require a really indepth understanding of the game, one that is only reached with playing the game alot.
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On March 20 2011 09:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 09:18 Bijan wrote:
If I love watching pro SC2, it is in my best interest to see the community grow. The more people watch, the more money is involved. The more money involved, the harder the players work to get it. The harder the players work, the better quality the games become. And therein lies all the e-sports advocacy. We just want to see even better games then we're already seeing, because we love watching the pros play. well said. I kinda figured since I play the game more than a whole lot of people and am still too lazy/unwilling to do any of that, what could possibly motivate other people who play far less than me to do much more to support it. Seems like star2 would have to be really damn entertaining that people who dont have enough time to play the game take what little free time they have to go out of their way to support it. It seems to me, that the level of entertainment observing the game would have to provide would require a really indepth understanding of the game, one that is only reached with playing the game alot.
Well everyone likes to think they understand the game to a good degree 
Also, you don't need to understand all the intricacies of balance and strategies, you just need to be able to recognize the consequences of what you see on screen.
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I'm bronze. I play maybe a few games a week. I probably watch 20+ games a week between GSL, Destiny, and Day9.
I feel like I understand the game fairly well. I'm a poor player because I don't have the time or energy to practice build orders, macro, scouting, increasing mouse speed, etc. I enjoy the strategy and tactics going on in the game, but it's stressful and tiring for me to try to replicate what I see when I play.
So yes, I probably don't understand what's going through a player's head when they scout gas then pool or pool then gas, but I know that both are safe openings meant to hold off early pressure with speed zerglings, as opposed to the more risky economic play of a 14 hatch.
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"And just statistically speaking, the majority of people in the sc2 population are NOT diamond+."
Sorry but my mind imploded here.
It is so often that I see this perception of leagues. Bnet leagues are not a measure of skill, it is a measure of your skill against others. The question you are asking sounds like this to me: why is it that people who are not better than other people love esports? Others said it before me, the more numerous a league the more likely you take notice of them loving esports, hating the game, etc.
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On March 20 2011 09:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 09:18 Bijan wrote:
If I love watching pro SC2, it is in my best interest to see the community grow. The more people watch, the more money is involved. The more money involved, the harder the players work to get it. The harder the players work, the better quality the games become. And therein lies all the e-sports advocacy. We just want to see even better games then we're already seeing, because we love watching the pros play. well said. I kinda figured since I play the game more than a whole lot of people and am still too lazy/unwilling to do any of that, what could possibly motivate other people who play far less than me to do much more to support it. Seems like star2 would have to be really damn entertaining that people who dont have enough time to play the game take what little free time they have to go out of their way to support it. It seems to me, that the level of entertainment observing the game would have to provide would require a really indepth understanding of the game, one that is only reached with playing the game alot.
I think it's a faulty assumption to think that it requires someone with a high level of play to obtain an in depth understanding of the game - to an extent. Obviously, there's a difference between the speed in which Artosis can recognize a build or strategy, and someone like myself. However, that doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on almost all of the time. Take BW for instance. Many of us fans are barely D level players on ICCup, or even less (I haven't played for years, and back when I played, I sucked ass). However, the reason why I love the pro-scene is because of the high level of play that I can appreciate. I don't need to have 400 apm JD mechanics to appreciate what he does, and the intricacies of everything can easily be learned by any layman just from constantly reading sites like TL, and listening to pros commentate and talk about the game. It's knowledge gained through osmosis and immersion, not through playing.
Without fans who supported the BW scene in Korea long before it became a national sport (and I doubt many of them came close to playing on a pro level), we wouldn't have players like JD and Flash today for all of us lesser mortals to appreciate. The same logic extends to SC2.
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I honestly don't get what playing the game has to do with watching pro games
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Because people like watching what they can't do themselves.
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I love watching football, the american kind. Im also a 5'6 140 lb asian man, so the level at which i could play that sport is basically non existant. I dont understand why watching the game and playing it are two things that should be linked. Of course, someone who already plays will also probably enjoy watching it being played at a higher level.
The fact that people who dont play the game a lot/at all are still interested in it is a good thing. In fact, it is exactly what is needed in order for the scene to grow.
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I'm one of those people. I have a very busy job, so I don't have the time to practice enough to be decent at SC2. But I fondly remember playing SC1 in middle school, and I'm just excited that a past-time that I enjoyed so much (or rather a derivative of it) is becoming so popular. I wasn't into the SC1 pro scene, but the launch of SC2 reminded me of the classic and revived my interest in both games.
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having people who don't play SC2 and are fans is a good thing, no a GREAT thing! Why? Because CS 1.6 never would have grown into a huge phenomenon without casuals because it's those people who have the most time to follow the sport itself. It's very hard to play a LOT of starcraft and have a normal life while also keeping up with the hundreds if not thousands of events world wide. We need these casuals because they are the ones who buy into the competitive scene by supporting it, watching streams, paying for GSL going to MLG, etc.
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To enjoy a game of SC2 you don't need to know all the 'rules'. You know the basics like one team vs another. They have to gather resources that will be used to construct buildings that will enable you create several units. With those units you battle your enemy and if you destroy him you win. Simple, right?
Even if you never played a game a good caster can fill in the your knowlegde gaps in a way you will understand what is going on and will be able to follow the action.
If many of Day9's followers don't even play its a sign of Sean's ability to present Starcraft in a way that even someone not into video games can enjoy. (He is uber baller ^^).
And that is what E-Sports needs. Because E-sports is a sport like football (soccer for NA). But it's an Electronic-Sport. Played in a electronic plataform.
Can you imagine if everybody you see in the football (again soccer for the NA) stadiums played football like their favorite players? Most of them don't play at all but they sure can enjoy and be excited we seeing a match, right?
And more important: some despite not playing can understand deeply the game and give opinions, remarks and/or observations with a great value. The same happen with starcraft.
Many will give their opinions (like they do in every sport around QQing about the tactics of a certain coach or a certain player) about SC strategies, tactics, balance, etc. but only some few will actually say something with importance.
E-Sports are indeed growing, SC2 beeing one of the main pillars of it. But it wont be us that are already into E-Sports that will make them grow: it will be the ones that we will be able to attract to it.
sry. about typos.
ps.: for all NA: football is played with the feet and not with the hands...^^
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I cannot do a marine spread like MarineKing can. I do not have the micro to be able to slice marines that precisely to minimize the damage of banelings.
I cannot FF as precisely as MC can to totally nullify an enemies army as they come knocking at my door. My mouse hand is not trained well enough to do so.
I do not have the timings down 100% for my buildings to be able to afford 7 mutas as soon as my spire hatches while still keeping my base defended and macroing drones like idra can.
But I can sit at my computer, turn on a stream and go "HOLY SHIT! I sure wish I could do that..."
This is why people watch the game, go to the game, and are fans of the game. They see something amazing, someone doing 3 drops at once, storm drops, perfect concaves, marine micro, FF micro, etc, etc etc... and they go "HOLY SHIT That was cool!!!!" and they have fun watching these amazing things because they cannot do them, and they blew their minds.
As they watch, they slowly find players that they enjoy to watch play the game, I like watching idra, catz, and minigun. These three players I think play the game amazingly, and I root for them in every tourney I can.
I am NOT as good as they are, and most likely never will be. But I can appreciate the time they put in, and I can root for them to win a tourney versus equally skilled opponents.
The game is fun to watch, I can't do 99% of what pro's can, but I can tell that they just did something awesome. Be is in a macro senses or micro sense. Strategic or Tactical. Not to mention, commentators help.
They point out things that you never would of noticed before, then when you watch another game, you notice that little thing and think to your self "damn I am pro" and you feel good because you learned something about a game you like watching.
Not to mention, many people, my self included, enjoy watching people play video games more than watching TV or Movies. This is my relaxation television. I can watch SC2 and watch Catz proxy hatch, or watch idra out macro some noob so badly that he just quits as soon as he sees idra's army. I can watch orb rage, or watch MrBitter giving advice. Its entertaining.
If I want to, I can watch the games for educational value, but most of the time I choose not to... its fun to do, its how I spend my free time. How hard is that for you to understand...
SC2 is a VERY simple game once explained (like a caster does). My gf who simply sits in the same room as I do when I watch as stream is catching on to SC terms simply through listening to streams... the game is not that hard to get into.
Some units shoot things, some units melee things, workers get minerals and build things. You build things to get units. You use units to kill the other guy. ZOMG this is 100% SC2.
You don't need to know that a 9 overlord > 10 overlord to enjoy a game where someone baneling drops a P's deathball and rolls over them.
You don't need to know that a 3 gate expansion is more economical than a 4 gate. But you can enjoy the micro battle that ensues as the 3 gater tries to survive.
You don't need to know how many banelings it takes to kill a marine, to be able to know that when someone sends 20 banelings at 20 marines, and no marines dies, that something amazing just happened.
You don't need to be a pro to understand the game, you just need eyes, and when someone is killing someone else in a way that is totally one sided, you know something awesome just happened... especially when the comentator starts freaking out "OMG THE BANELINGS!", "... and he's dropping the zergs 3rd, And 2nd, OMFG AND HIS 3rd, HOW WILL HE SURVIVE THIS ONE?!?!?!?"
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I've never played a game of SC2 in my life, but I constantly support the scene. I go to viewing parties up here in Toronto, I introduce my friends to the game and I occasionally annoy my friends by talking about it when they just don't care. Why? Because I love the game and if people don't care it might fade into obscurity.
You're right, e-sports is a different beast from something like hockey - because it's not societally recognized as a sport. Tasteless and Artosis say it every day, without the support of viewers and sponsors these things wouldn't be possible. I may not have the time or desire to be a great SC2 player (and it's for the best, I become a dick when I game too much) but I can think ahead far enough to say "I like watching this, maybe I should do something to make sure it continues to exist"
To reiterate: never touched a game, my computer couldn't handle the game and yet I try to be an advocate for the game because I want to see e-sports recognized as legitimate. I don't see why that's difficult to understand.
Cheers
-Tai
Edit: Insanious, very well said. I forgot to mention the connection between a fan and specific players, but you summed it up very well.
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spectators
it's what makes a sport
sc2 has em
???
GG
seriously though, soon esports will be very widely accepted (or at least "legit") because the argument "it's just a game" doesn't even make sense nor does it explain why an esport, with millions of fans, should be looked down upon
@insanious
well said !
@Tai
i commend u for supporting esprots and everyone else too
wish i still lived in toronto. much better than here in USA. i miss my homies, and i miss that i could have been to the toronto gsl finals events ;(
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I think you're making a big disconnect between being a starcraft player and being a competitive starcraft player. I've been going back and forth between rank 1 and 10 in my platinum division for the last couple of months. I'm not a competitive player by any means and I don't feel the need to get better at the game, but, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing the game. I still buy tickets to every GSL the day they're available and I always go with the high quality pay streams for things like MLG. I watch the day9 daily and state of the game live whenever I get the chance though. Just because someone doesn't want to be the next MC, Jinro, Idra, or whoever doesn't mean that they don't absolutely love the game and want to see esports grow.
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The fact that it isn't isolated to the players who play 2-3 hours a day is a great thing. It just shows that you don't have to know the in's and outs of the game in order to enjoy it. I really love starcraft and I really love e-sports I just can't motivate myself to play that many games a day, it's just startcraft really, I come from an FPS background and I can easily play 2-3 hours of that.
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Australia8532 Posts
Like any other sport that requires professionals?
I bet there is a lot more people that can watch a monday night football game than actually play a game of football?
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Starcraft isn't intuitive to play. You have to put effort in, learn how to win and think/copy build etc. Thats why I don't play. Plus multitasking ain't fun for me. But if you like the game you can watch casts and be entertained.. Also I never seen another game with as much coverage. Other games I like have little or bad (as in boring I'm looking at you Seananners) coverage. Plus there is always a stream up etc.
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Starcraft 2 seems to be alot more personable, you hear alot more about the players personalities than other games, or even sports, which makes it more relatable and enjoy to watch them play, for whatever reason.
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Playing Starcraft competetivly (which laddering is) is incredibly stressful.
And watching other people play is not. I can also enjoy watching football, but I am also the kind of person that stops and listens if I hear a good street musician.
And especially in Starcraft it never ceases to amaze me how incredibly good some people are. And it doesn't have to be insane micro tricks that amaze me. Seeing someone kite a zealot with a marauder and looking at the edges of the screen how he switches his buildings at a tech lab usually is enough to leave me upset at how they are not as bad as me.
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guess whatever floats your boat then. If so many people are like that then whose to say whats right and whats wrong do whatever makes you happy. If you guys can get a kick out of sc2 without playing it then thats cool i guess. I still think its weird though .
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I agree with the overall sentiment of the thread that although I have never played basketball at a high level at all I do like watching it. I assume the same goes here.
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On March 20 2011 13:36 Kelethius wrote: guess whatever floats your boat then. If so many people are like that then whose to say whats right and whats wrong do whatever makes you happy. If you guys can get a kick out of sc2 without playing it then thats cool i guess. I still think its weird though .
I had a read through, and couldn't find my opinion easily, sorry if this is a repeat. I also agree with Bijan's points.
As a low level player, who likes e-sports, and would probably go to an event if my travels coincided with it so that it was convenient, I'd give you my reasons why I enjoy watching it so much.
I have a rudimentary knowledge of the game, and play rarely. Even though I don't see what "high level" players see (like yourself Kelethius), I like to see what the pro players do accompanied by the commentary (like in GSL). It all still seems so fast and magical, and I appreciate the mental games going on, even if it has to be explained to me. I even watch BW pro games with korean commentary, those commentators are just made of enthusiasm so you can't help but find it enjoyable.
I think what SC and SC2 have, that other games don't, is enthusiasm in commentary, high prize pools and accessibility through it being pushed by organizations (like Kespa, Blizzard and GOM). Also, big names which earn lots of money. What low level players don't have is the time, ability and patience to get good at the game and understand it in depth through experience, whether to diamond or masters or the top 200. So it is so much easier to casually watch a game online, and even attend an event because there are players there that you just admire for their skill.
I'd compare it to women in Australia who love watching sports (Rugby comes to mind, along with cricket), but never play themselves. They have no skill in playing the game, know the fundamental rules, and can admire the skill involved. I think Kelethius you are the opposite. You like playing a game, but not spectating so much, probably because you are good at it. But there are others in this world with the complete opposite spectrum.
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I love this game, and I am in bronze. It's not that I'm a very bad player, it's just that A) I don't get a chance to play much, and B) I am still newer to Starcraft. I'm already writing for GosuGamers, and that's based off writing skill and my knowledge of the game itself is decent to higher. I just don't have the same working mechanics. I play at the speed of a platinum level player, but I learned in my league matches and am haunted by that with my MMR. A bad move on my part knowing how Blizzard's MMR works from World of Warcraft Arena play, but I did it, and I gotta live with it. Next off, my best friend LOVES Starcraft, and does play it if prompted to, but doesn't go out of his way to play it like I do when I can. He enjoys watching it, and talking about it. It interests him, he just finds playing too stressful for him.
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On March 20 2011 07:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this Thats makes equally little sense to me
Hmm? Why does it make little sense to you? Do you love music? Do you actively try to get a degree in music theory? Do you love movies? Are you a movie director? Do you love x y z?
Etc.
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i think that its that fans of the game are getting older, which is a good thing.
think about it if the only people who watched MLB baseball were those playing little league, there wouldn't be much of an audience. but people that played when they were kids have an understanding of the rules and all that it takes to be a good baseball player continue to watch their entire lives, i think that the people that spent their younger days doing zergling rushes or even playing golem defense understand these games, at least to a point, appreciate good competition, and they have an affinity for it, having grown up playing them and around them.
whether or not that is the case, these are the type of fans that esports needs to grow and thrive, we can't just be a demographic market of 13-30 yr old nerds, we need all types of people to watch, and really starcraft 1 was arguably the best pc game of the 90s and really holds a place 2nd only to legends like super mario and street fighter in cultural acceptance and popularity, so i think we're on the right track.
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On March 20 2011 14:19 fer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:34 Kelethius wrote:On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this Thats makes equally little sense to me Hmm? Why does it make little sense to you? Do you love music? Do you actively try to get a degree in music theory? Do you love movies? Are you a movie director? Do you love x y z? Etc.
To flip this on it's head.
Do people well versed in music theory have a hard time understanding why people like music if they have little understanding of it?
Do movie directors see movies in such a way that they find it hard to see how normal people see movies?
It might be that the bias in making that person so skillful, and thus their view of appreciating what they are skilled at, excludes the ability to easily comprehend what makes unskilled people appreciate it?
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I love watching Starcraft, but I am not that good at it. I am in Gold and doubt I will reach Diamond or something anytime soon. But it is an incredibly entertaining game to watch because of it depth. Once you understand the basics of the strategies implemented, noticing how brilliant newer ones are really keeps you coming back. It's also not difficult to realize HOW good these professional players actually are because of the way Starcraft 2 operates when you're a neutral observer.
Blizzard did an amazing job of making such a deep game, yet making one that they intentionally made very fun to watch as a spectator. I also think it's easy to recognize Starcraft 2 skill as equally mental and physical (in the sense of reflexes and sheer mouse/keyboard mechanics). Unlike an FPS, Starcraft 2 demands an immense amount of strategy (oh, that's why they call it an RTS) whilst at the same time concentation. FPS's do involve team strategy, but not in the sense that SC2 does.
Brilliant game in every way, really. 'Nuff said.
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There's also a lot to be said about building upon the knowledge you already have as a spectator. It's a rewarding process to understand why someone won a battle not simply because they lost probes or they had more units, but how they won because of the strategy they implemented going into the game or in the midst of it.
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On March 20 2011 13:36 Kelethius wrote: guess whatever floats your boat then. If so many people are like that then whose to say whats right and whats wrong do whatever makes you happy. If you guys can get a kick out of sc2 without playing it then thats cool i guess. I still think its weird though .
Although I play Starcraft a lot and don't fall into this category of those who watch but don't play, I couldn't disagree with you more. It's no different than people who watch any type of sports. It's just a matter of being able to understand something and finding enjoyment in watching its intricacies pan out. It's entertainment. You watch sitcoms, but do you film them? Do you write them? Sure, they are not the same form of entertainment, but both SC2 and sitcoms are, in the most basic sense, forms of entertainment. You do not have to engage in something to enjoy it, and many people who enjoy watching SC2 might not find the same pleasure in playing it (as it can be very frustrating at time -- let's be honest).
While I play quite a bit, I can definitely say that I enjoy watching Starcraft 2 more than I enjoy playing it. It's a great game to play, but it can be stressful. Watching it is an easygoing activity and lots of commentators are equally enjoyable to listen to (Tastosis in particular). The more I think about it, the more I realize I really do like the spectator side of SC2 more than the playing side of it.
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As a person who has literally never touched SC2, I am extremely entertained by it. I played SC1 some (mostly campaign) and I played a LOT of WC3 online (mostly custom games). However I have an excellent grasp of what's going on in SC2, I can watch a game and tell who's ahead or behind at any point in a game, even without commentators! (yeah I'm so good) I also enjoy discussing SC2 with my brother, who is in the same boat as me. It is simply entertaining, and I can tell that it takes huge amounts of skill.
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I don't think the OP is saying that you can't enjoy something if you don't play it well.
he's just confused why...if you love the game so much, why don't you play a lot? and if you do play a lot, why aren't you good?
I think its a bit of a faulty logical statement myself, some people just suck no matter how much they try to improve, and I also think part of it is some people don't even try to improve and are happy sucking at the game. Perhaps happy is the wrong word. Content.
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On March 20 2011 07:25 Kelethius wrote:
- And just statistically speaking, the majority of people in the sc2 population are NOT diamond+. Theres no physical/mental barrier that has to be broken for anybody on Earth to make it to AT LEAST diamond, or low/mid masters. It just takes playing the game. For me, it seems to me that if people loved the game so much and loved esports so much, they couldnt possibly be in bronze/silver/gold.
As someone pointed out above, everyone can't be in the top 20% (ish) of "active" players.
I'm a Zerg player in Silver, #3 in a new division with a ton of active players, with a very large number of games played, over 1000. I was in the beta also, firmly in Copper league the entire time, until they removed it. I had no RTS experience when I started, whatsoever, and I lost my first 40 games in a row.
Here's the thing: I've not only improved tremendously over the last several months, I'm continuing to improve, rapidly. I'm seeing timings now that were completely off my radar before. My macro is getting pretty solid whereas at the start it didn't exist. I routinely go 40/60 against my high Gold friends but consistently lose to my Diamond friends. I play them, however, to see how they beat me and learn from it.
The thing is, the people around me are rapidly improving also, particularly the people who play a lot. Since league boundaries are determined by only the active players, I have to exceed everyone else's performance to get promoted. And, while I destroy some people who clearly don't know what they're doing, my games are uneven. I lose some games that I really shouldn't because I'm careless, or overcommit to an attack, say, or get hit by a really strong timing attack that someone's been practicing over and over, game after game, with no variation for hundreds of games.
I absolutely take full responsibility for my losses, nobody else to blame but me, but the fact is that to move ahead of the pack, I have to improve the consistency of my game quite a bit. This is harder than it sounds, because it requires not just learning the basics, but having a good handle on how to avoid being open to the really stupid shit, the six pools, the two raxes, the well-executed build in the hands of someone who does only that build, game after game, regardless of matchup, while I try to vary my build by race and alter what I'm doing based on what I scout.
Eventually, in the extreme long run, I expect that I'll have an excellent handle on the game, because I do not take the approach of practicing a single build relentlessly. In any case, playing Zerg, the choices are few -- 7 roach rush every game, or learn a lot of different possible timings to accommodate every matchup and scouted tech choice.
This idea that because you're strong at the game that anyone with a pulse is able to get there with the application of willpower is pretty facile. As I say, it really does take outperforming other similarly-situated players who are rapidly improving and playing a ton, just as I am. A month from now, the most active 10% of Silver players, of which I am one, will be enormously better, and I'll be right with them, but it would be pretty egotistical (as well as unsupported by my results so far) to say that I can cleanly pull ahead of them. And, because those most active 10% play so many games, they're most of whom I'll be facing on the ladder. The infrequent players will either catch up fast or get demoted when they do play.
Edit: I should point out that every gold or higher player whom I know played BW or WC3 for YEARS. I literally never touched the game. I know there are people with an unusual amount of talent who came to SC2 completely fresh and went straight from Bronze to Diamond or better -- I'd love to meet any of them who were playing Zerg and find out what their deal was. :D
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When I spectate sports (including esports) to me its like a visual art. Watching people who train hard at and do something well that I can only do on an average level is interesting. And you're right, there are aspects that I, as a spectator cannot appreciate, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate any of it. A person who can only draw stick figures can still enjoy a museum. Not in the same way an art major could, but enjoy it none the less.
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Look at my post count. I bought SC2 today, and it's not even playable on my 3 y/o macbook. I just wanted to make some maps.
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On March 20 2011 07:59 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:38 tattoos and creep wrote:
it's a matter of entertainment. I have a friend that looks many games (GSL, TSL, etc...) and he's not EVEN playing the game. We sometimes discuss the game and all, and we actually have fun doing it. Oh and yeah im having fun in my golden league. my question is how he could possibly enjoy the game. People here are saying how easy it is to watch sc2 and understand whats going on, when realistically its like complete opposite. What is actually going on in the minds of those players is incredibly difficult to understand. How can you appreciate and find that entertaining when its something completely unknown to someone whose never even played a single game of sc2. Maybe its just sc2 has pretty graphics and explosions are fun to watch, but is that really a reason to watch other games? Nobody is spending time watching like curling or some random sports cause they couldnt give two craps about it. I'm not watching dawn of war games or other games out there cause I dont give a shit about those games and ive never played them. For me watching a dawn of war game is something someone would have to force me to do, and still I would resist greatly. Its a waste of time for me. I hold people who dont play sc2 and watch it to a similar standard. I dont think the comparison between sc2 players and normal sports can be made so easily. Alot of people who are watching sports at least have played it in the past, or its something extremely easily to be impressed by. Like you see a soccer game or something and a guy does those flip kicks and scores a goal, or totally fakes someone out while on the offense or whatever. Its really easy to be like holy shit thats crazy! But alot of what goes on in a game of sc2 that a person having never played the game can relate to or be impressed by. All my gamer friends who I tried to show some videos to get into sc2 found it boring cause "they sit around for 15 minutes then attack and its over", meanwhile im at the edge of my seat when ret makes a round of drones at timing x. I can understand the crazy micro tricks you can see from bw videos, it doesnt even look humanly possible. But realistically that kind of crazy shit is very rare to see even in bw games. Not to say there isnt alot of micro going on in sc2, but its usually subtle shit that people probably think the computer does automatically or something because they do it so smoothly (ie idra surrounding a group of bfh with lings). The biggest things that blow me away from sc2 games is because I put myself in their shoes and freak out when they do this or do that because its like no way that will work. I can relate it to excitement I get watching a poker game on tv and someone doing a bluff, but again its because I have an understanding of whats going on. I guess I kind of see people who dont play sc2 enjoying watching it as something like going to the jungles of Brazil and showing the tribes people phil ivey doing a crazy bluff or something. They would be like, ok who cares about this shit. Which is how I would think people who dont play sc2 would look at a sc2 game. But then I am faced with these people being the majority of the viewing audience and people who post the most about the game??? something doesnt click for me
Have you ever seen a football game? It's nowhere as exciting as you describe. The things you described are very rare, and most of the game is spent passing the ball, kicking it across the field, and running. What about baseball? Do the majority of viewers understand how amazing of a mindgame pitcher A was playing on batter B? Probably not unless the commentators call it out. All they see is pitcher A throws, and batter B hits. Half of them probably can't even tell what kind of pitch it was just by looking at the screen. Do I think forcefield micro is more exciting to see than a breaking ball mix up? You bet.
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If you tell a person SC2 is a strategy game that requires you to balance your economy between defending against your opponent and destroying them. You win when your opponent is completed destroyed or gg's. They will get Starcraft2's fundamentals very easily and quickly. The nuances of unit versus unit and build order versus build order is something that the viewer would develop over time. As well as all the subtle mechanics inbetween. But what would keep them watching is not necessarily appreciation for a specific game play moment, but the trails and tribulations of the players each game personifies. You can enjoy a Flash versus Jaedong without being a BW pro even if you only know who they each are.
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I don't think it really matters why. It's a good thing for SC2 either way.
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On March 20 2011 09:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 09:18 Bijan wrote:
If I love watching pro SC2, it is in my best interest to see the community grow. The more people watch, the more money is involved. The more money involved, the harder the players work to get it. The harder the players work, the better quality the games become. And therein lies all the e-sports advocacy. We just want to see even better games then we're already seeing, because we love watching the pros play. well said. I kinda figured since I play the game more than a whole lot of people and am still too lazy/unwilling to do any of that, what could possibly motivate other people who play far less than me to do much more to support it. Seems like star2 would have to be really damn entertaining that people who dont have enough time to play the game take what little free time they have to go out of their way to support it. It seems to me, that the level of entertainment observing the game would have to provide would require a really indepth understanding of the game, one that is only reached with playing the game alot.
If I get more enjoyment from watching the best players play than playing, then I will do so.
Also, there is a social aspect to this as well. When I enjoy something, I try to get my friends interested in it as well because it is MUCH more fun to also talk about the games (or insert topic) than to just enjoy it on your own (probably explaining the popularity of sites such as this). Having Starcraft 2 grow also increases the number of people with whom we can discuss Starcraft 2.
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You're missing a big part of why Starcraft 2 == Football, and not Chess - casters. A good caster is someone who could get their viewers excited about literally anything going on on-screen. When you're watching something, and the commentator says "OH MY GOD, I CAN'T BELIEVE HE JUST DID THAT HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE" It's going to catch your interest whatever it is. E-Sports is blessed with a lot of these guys, all the way from amateurs with 5 Youtube videos, to payed professionals.
With all that in mind, it's not hard to see how you can get sucked into the whole thing.
I think an even better analogy than Football would be Firefly. When that show got cancelled, you literally had thousands of people petitioning to bring it back, despite none of them being starship captains, or even actors or screenwriters. Just because you don't participate in something, doesn't mean you can't get wrapped up in the drama or story of it.
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Watching SC2 definitely helped me go from Copper League to Diamond League.
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A lot of people like playing this game with their friends. I for example will only play about 5 1v1 games in a week, where as i will play more like 30 2v2s/3v3s. While I certainly don't belong in the silver league, I just don't play enough games to get promoted.
Also, a lot of my friends watch the GSL, so I watch it and talk with them during.
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Ok I just saw a game with Liquid Huk PvP on his stream. It was 4 gate Stalker with blink vs 4 gate Stalker with blink. Huk won because he had four Zealots. I Also play Protoss way lower than Huk. And I was saying the Zealot count would win the game I was right the four Zealots he had won the game.
I know the rules and how the game can go but can not play at the high levels. Much like I know American Football. Right now I play Protoss Vs Zerg like the option play. I can keep the ball, toss to the running back that is with me. It is a one gate forge. If Zerg expands I canon it if not it becomes a 4 gate with + 1 attack to deal with speedling and roach. The defense (or in my case the Zerg has to know how to defend this.) It has been quite good to me so far.
This made me think about how I first heard about SC2 and during Beta watched youtube stuff. WOW I just went to Youtube. Typed hus and Huskystarcraft came up then HDstarcraft was next.
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Starcraft is a pain in the ass to play. You have to work hard, doing ten things at once while using perfect finger precision. The sheer difficulty and complexity of the game are what make it fun to watch, but its so hard to play. I enjoy playing sometimes, like I enjoy a game of backyard football with my buddies. But mainly I like to watch other people play football while I sit on my couch and drink refreshing beverages while chatting with my friends. Starcraft is the same deal. Loving a game is not the same as loving playing a game.
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It's kind of like comparing a regular sport to UFC, the UFC and MMA in general grew because of support from fans who simply love to watch but don't participate. There is nothing better than watching a good fight even though I have no technical knowledge of the sport, it's just fun to watch. What was MMA ten years ago? It was a joke to a lot of people and now among 90% of the guys I talk to all enjoy MMA and talk about it openly.
I think SC2 and e-sports can become this, it just needs to be spread outside of the internet. For example, a sport like MMA can exist because it's on national television, having a sport only exist on the internet is a big hurdle we must get past. With MLG and possibly NASL getting on TV I think that's a huge step in the right direction. Remember, games like BW and CS 1.6 were hugely popular among internet nerds around the world but because the games look so out dated it's less likely they will gain fame on TV. A game like SC2 with crisp graphics is bearable to look at, I think SC2 has the best chance of succeeding on TV.
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For me, it seems to me that if people loved the game so much and loved esports so much, they couldnt possibly be in bronze/silver/gold.
I arrive home from work at around 7-ish and I'm usually so beat that playing SC is really not an option. I play zerg, so if I don't have the mental state to perform my mechanics correctly I'd rather simply not play than play in that state and rage myself into an early grave after a 10-loss streak.
So during weekdays, I'm a casual e-sports fan but on weekends I try to squeeze any minute of playtime humanly possible. This has got me to high plat pushing for diamond so I can still find a place in your "not worthy" categories yet I remain an avid e-sports fan regardless.
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If only the top 200 players in the world are allowed to enjoy the game, it wont last long. I love watching Starcraft because I love watching 2 amazing players using their skill to overcome their opponent. I've always preferred individual sports over team sports and I've been into games for a very long time, so watching Starcraft came pretty natural to me because its a game of immense skill.
I still enjoy playing the game whenever I find the time to sit down and play some ladder games, but I am far from good at it.
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You don't have to be able to sing to enjoy music, right?
We're all just different, some of us enjoys playing the game and others would rather watch others play. I'm the latter myself.
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This is good for sc2 especially as an eSport, the more people who don't play the game that are attracted to watching the top players player just shows how good of a thing we have, and I expect it to keep growing as more and more leagues improve streams and content. Husky and HD brought me into the game and although I don't listen to them anymore I am happy that they are bringing so many people and us as a community should support anyone who helps out sc2 and eSports in general.
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Meh, for me playing casually and spectating is just more fun than hardcore laddering. I guess everyone's different in that regard.
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There has been a lot of examples in this thread and this is kind of hard to explain - that's why I understand why you ask this. First of all - you can't compare it to turn-based chess that is really slow - because the action is less compared to a sport.
When you play the game very much you see it like strategic objects and things that move and you constantly try to improve the movement and strategies. It's mechanical and you look at it that way and not as pure entertainment, that's why I think you compare it to chess.
If you take a step back you will see that from a spectator point of view is not about that and more comparable to "real" sports.
The main questions you ask is this:
On March 20 2011 07:25 Kelethius wrote:
What do you guys think of this? Whats going on here? Why do people who hardly play the game(or not at all) care about it?
Because they love the story, action and everything that you can't achieve as a player and you can see the skill and the effort Pros put in to it.
I can't put down ForceFields like MC, yet I enjoy and can see how difficult it is to perfect it and that's why I enjoy it so much when I watch a game.
I can't dunk in basket like Kobe Bryant, yet I enjoy and see how difficult it is to perfect it and that's why I enjoy it so much when I watch a basket.
It's basically the same thing. When we see that moving armada that try a touchdown in Football it's the same thing when we see the sprinting zerglings moving towards their goal (probes/SCVs/drones).
I think that people who play soccer/football in division 2 in a highly competetive country isn't the most hardcore fan. It's the 40-year old bald, chubby, married man who goes to a packed arena with a team outfit and cheer with his friends.
It works the same thing with other things and we can take a simple example: The Olympics. I'm from Sweden and you can bet that we get excited when Sweden and Norway competes in Biathlon (You know, cross-country skiing + rifle shooting). I can tell you that hardly anyone competes or plays (?) biathlon - yet we get excited and cheer for our favourite athletes.
I'm a diamond player myself and play a lot so I'm not the category you describe but have many friends and a GF that absolutely loves to watch SC2 eSport for the casual excitement and fun it's bringin to them.
Even if they don't understand 14 hatch they enjoy when the giant protoss deathball clashes with the zerg swarm full of Ultras, roaches and brood lords. And when they see Mothership Vortex, Baneling bomb or a Nuke - daaamn how excited they get!
Edit: Typo mistake
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I think your question is really relevant. I was asking myself why the heck do they care about the game when they have NO IDEA what is multitasking etc, some of it has been answered like the first post.
But i feel like everyone is not really frank about it. Let's face it, some streamers that encourage you to play the game are partially sponsored/ close to/ friend with blizzard and sponsors that want to make money out of it.
Thats basically it. They encourage you to play the game and maybe they get higher value from blizzard & sponsors ? Husky is like the golden exemple. I might be wrong but there is something that seems fake somewhere somehow...
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On March 20 2011 16:53 12D3 wrote:
This is actually very simple and has been touched on in different posts.
Why do people who don't play care about SC2 Esports?
- Because they enjoy watching it more than playing it.
If they enjoy watching why don't they enjoy playing it?
- SC2 can be somewhat stressful as it requires a lot of multi tasking and quick thinking. If you are not naturally good at these things it may feel frustrating to play at times. So to those people it can be much more enjoyable to watch others play.
But they don't understand all the subtleties of the game. How can they enjoy/appreciate watching others?
- They begin watching with a basic understanding. The main objective is to kill the other player with your army, pretty simple. After that you can learn as you go. I think it is being completely overlooked that for many other things in life there is some level of preparation or knowledge gained before actually "doing". So while you can learn SC2 by "doing", you can also learn by reading, watching and listening. After you do this for awhile you eventually learn the subtleties.
Why do they care if Esports grows then? They are already enjoying watching it.
- Because the bigger Esports gets the higher the quality of tournaments and games we will get. The scene will get more sophisticated and we may one day go from watching streaming games online to watching matches on ESPN. Can you imagine one day being able to casually talk about MC the way people can casually talk about Kobe Bryant? Its just sharing something you already love with even MORE people.
I think this sums it up in general. You can compare it very well to football (soccer), where the commentator(s) make it more interesting to watch. Another reason is the fact SC2 isn't complicated as a basic game. You do not need a set amount workers, a certain amount of units, a certain percentage of the map, certain upgrades, etc. While all those things I mentioned make a huge difference for sure, the objective in essence is simple: kill your opponent. And that's makes the game accessible for starters. "gogogo kill red" is enough. The more you root for blue, or red, the more you see little cool things as well. SC2 isn't a stale game. It's not a push and move forward thing. Drops, cloaked units, proxy buildings, etc are just a few examples which add a basic bit of "extra" to the simple concept of "killing red". Casters are more familiar with the game of course, and make stuff like that more accessible to a newbie. The game being so accessible to watch (due to those who indeed love the game so much).
I remember when I played football when I was younger. There was always pressure to perform, which I think is a big argument for a lot of people to rather go watch/play a custom/play with friends in SC2. Because watching a football match/playing some penalty kicks or a match with some people from around the neighborhood/friends is fun and doesn't bare any pressure. Enjoying the same game because of the fun factor is good. Such a thing becoming more accepted, and being to talk with more people about is a good thing then.
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Since when do high-level players not follow e-sports? I'm pretty sure most do, it's just that there are less of us.
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What's the problem with being casual and just play for the fun of it?. How do you want me to help eSports? donate money or something?. What's wrong with playing the game casually, when you have a life away from the keyboard.
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On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
Indeed, at least that's the way for me. I like watching sc2, but I do not play sc2 because I cannot afford the time it would take to get my skills up to a level where I wouldn't be disgusted with my own game. And if I start playing sc2 for once, I might be dragged far more into it that would be good for my life. ^^
Unlike real sports, you can basically play sc2 indefinitely at home.
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Beside everything else being said before also take in mind that there exist people who are not you.
Even if you can't imagine to do something others can.
I highly doubt a lot of people are watching starcraft 2 because of "pretty explosions" and the like but what do I know? maybe some do that as well ;-)
The reason people watch the day9-daily even if they never played the game could be his passion which he shows during everything sc-related he does. People like that a lot.
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I accidently started watching gsl season 1 without ever even thinking of buying the game (never played rts unless u wanna call dota rts, which it isn't) and it was still very entertaining. after a few months i bought the game. Now that I've played a little its even more entertaining to watch the gsl. So ye I think if u've played the game urself u can appreciate it more but even without playing it can be fun.
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On March 20 2011 19:01 Khanz wrote:
But i feel like everyone is not really frank about it. Let's face it, some streamers that encourage you to play the game are partially sponsored/ close to/ friend with blizzard and sponsors that want to make money out of it.
It's kind of nutty to suggest that these guys are casting because of any kind of profit motive. When they started casting, I can guarantee you that the idea of making ANY money from it wasn't even remotely in their imaginations. They started doing it because they're enthusiastic about the game.
In any case, to the extent that people like HD or Husky have a profit motive, their main concern is that you keep watching their stream. Their sponsors are unrelated to the game. (I've been seeing lots of Microsoft Bing and toothpaste ads recently.) And while Blizzard loves having viewers' eyes on these people, they're putting their money and effort into promoting the actual tournaments rather than webcasts by youtube personalities.
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I like watching and analyzing but i don't play the game, just as i like watching and analyzing soccer games. And yes even if i don't play the game i can understand everything just fine, just as a soccer coach doesn't have to be a good soccer player i don't have to be a good sc2 player to understand the game.
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I highly doubt a lot of people are watching starcraft 2 because of "pretty explosions" and the like but what do I know? maybe some do that as well ;-)
Maybe not continuously watch it for the pretty explosions, since they get boring after a while, but it's definitely something that catches their eye at first. My gf saw me watching some replay where I charged my mass speedling/baneling army into his mass queen and it ended up with a huge bang of green stuff :D I doubt she knew what went on, but the sight was so awesome that she started asking what that was and eventually got into watching and understanding the game.
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Whoever came up with the term e-sports should be shot.
But on topic, for any "sport" to be succesful in any way it requires spectators. No spectators, no pros, no competition.
I would have thought that was fairly obvious no?
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my skill level, attitude and time spent at the game are similar to the author, so can't really tell why -.-
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On March 20 2011 22:43 antikk wrote:
Whoever came up with the term e-sports should be shot.
But on topic, for any "sport" to be succesful in any way it requires spectators. No spectators, no pros, no competition.
I would have thought that was fairly obvious no?
Why is e-sports a bad term?
E-sports, Electronic sports.
Ball-sports, Sports using a ball.
And so on.
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On March 20 2011 23:07 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 22:43 antikk wrote:
Whoever came up with the term e-sports should be shot.
But on topic, for any "sport" to be succesful in any way it requires spectators. No spectators, no pros, no competition.
I would have thought that was fairly obvious no? Why is e-sports a bad term? E-sports, Electronic sports. Ball-sports, Sports using a ball. And so on.
When was the last time they changed the shape of the ball in football? Or changed the maximum number of players on the field?
I dont think the games we play can ever be called a sport because the game itself is constantly being changed (patches, expansions, sequels). But I dont want to deviate too far from the topic, gaming as a sport discussion is far beyond the scope of this thread.
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Nothing strange with people watching and not playing. The reason you find it strange is beause you don't see Starcraft as a sport.
If this was a Formula 1 forum, MMA forum or any other sports forum you wouldn't see threads like this popping up where people are surprised that you don't actually drive race cars on your spare time or get into a cage with your friends trying to submit or knockout each other.
I watch a lot of sports but in reality I do a bit running (I never watch running though because I find it boring to watch) and occasional play some tennis.
Same goes for Starcraft. Sure, i play some but I love to watch GSL on my tv eating sandwich and drinking coca cola , cheer in live threads and/or chats.
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This thread is basically OP going "how can people enjoy SC2 from a different perspective than my own??", being told how and then him just going "how?? I don't believe it!" over and over again. It's stupid. I think the OP is just secretly pissed off that people who aren't good enjoy watching the game more than he does.
People who play casually / don't play at all can enjoy the game. People who don't play can come to understand the game. We have commentators to explain the to the people who don't know it that well.
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Leme /thread this real quick for you.
How many people watch NBA? But how many play in NBA?
How many people watch NFL? But how many play in NFL?
How many people watch NHL? But how many play in NHL?
How many people watch MMA? But how many fight in MMA?
How many people watch F1? But how many participate in F1?
How many people watch (insert huge spectator sport)? But how many play in (it)?
Spectating will always be more common than participating.
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I don't mind watching counterstrike but goddamn is it a bad game to play
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Because personally i'd rather watch a Starcraft 2 tournament game then i watch some football or tennis game.
I've grown up playing games, so i can relate myself to the games and players and find it interesting. And especially if someone like day9 or tastosis is casting who make a nice show of it.
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On March 20 2011 07:25 Kelethius wrote: What I guess this really stems down to is perhaps something wrong on my end. I see love for the game and time spent playing it as extremely strongly positively correlated (people who love it the most, play it the most). But anytime I watch a podcast or stream, or interview or whatever type of video coverage, the people making the most effort to go out and ask questions, talk to streamers/players in person, make comments about esports and love for the game, always seem to be the lowest level players (or non-players all together)
This is a wrong perception on your part, love of any given sport or activity does not correlate with a given persons ability or the amount that they personally participate in it. The desire to play and relative skill level is completely separate from the wish to see said sport/activity prosper and desire for involvement in said prosperity.
‘Real’ sports example, the majority of coaches, organisers, promoters (etc) of sports aren’t necessarily all that good at them. Coaches need a strong understanding of the sport but not actual ‘mechanical’ ability in the sport, organisers and promoters only need a basic understanding of the sport (but importantly need a strong understanding of their target audience). These people may not actually have that much, or any, ability in their respective sports but want to see and aid growth for their own reasons.
E-sports is very small and niche in the sporting world and is still largely a grassroots effort, this creates a stronger community than other sports will have (football for example is a collective of many communities which makes a larger whole). This puts more emphasis on the individuals than a football fan will feel, because it is so small ‘I’ can do something to make a difference, every small effort counts since there aren’t TV deals worth hundreds of millions being bounced around, so everyone who buys a premium ticket for Gom or NASL or who turns off adblock for streams and sites can make a contribution (however small, it adds up in this small market situation).
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On March 20 2011 08:58 Centorian wrote:
i'm sorry but the OP stinks of elitist crap. I'm a HUGE fan of e-sports. Why do I have to be awesome at SC to enjoy it. Just because I can not technically manage all of those things you spoke of: Drone timing, micro, etc. doesn't mean I can't understand them when they are being done. Also its an entirely false statement that everyone with half a brain can reach masters. Masters is 2% of the population. 2% can never be 40% much less 90%. Your posts show that maybe you can play SC well but you seem to lack the ability to reason. Makes me question your age.
-Cent
Just a question, how does age have anything to do with the discussion?
+ Show Spoiler +It's ridiculous and utterly insane when people think of age as a sole criterion for judging a poster's comprehensive skills.
Elitist crap you say? Looking down on "younger people" is in itself a twisted perspective.
Sorry if I had to target your post directly, but really there is something very wrong with the way you think.
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On March 20 2011 20:00 pezit wrote:
I like watching and analyzing but i don't play the game, just as i like watching and analyzing soccer games. And yes even if i don't play the game i can understand everything just fine, just as a soccer coach doesn't have to be a good soccer player i don't have to be a good sc2 player to understand the game.
Same here . Never played starcraft 2, don't have any intention of playing it either (No time). Nevertheless, i follow the SC2 scene very closely and its been hugely entertaining.
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You are completely ignorant of a very important point. (idk if this was mentioned since im writing from my phone) if everyone in the whole world played all day with perfect execution, there would still be a certain percentage of people in each division.
To offer some hyperbole, saying that "if everyone tried, they would all be diamond or better" is like saying "if every basketball player tried, they would all be in the nba"
Masters is the top two percent, eventually for everybody getting into masters, there will be somebody forced out
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I've been playing Starcraft 2 since early beta, be it at a very slow pace. I managed to get into platinum and stay there though, but I haven't played a single 1v1 in weeks because I don't have time for it and/or don't feel like it. I do actively follow SC2 e-sports, however.
It's nice to see the player level evolve, and the new GSL maps have really added to the intensity of the game, but I'm afraid we'll still have to wait a couple of years before the game reaches brood war-levels in terms of skill; games are not quite as interesting as brood war games. They're generally pretty one-sided and I'm yet to see a really nice comeback that isn't caused by the winning player starting to slack.
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As a former athlete I just appreciate skill whether it's in eSports, Snooker, Chess, Football, Hockey etc. It's a thing of beauty really.
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could be the fantasy aspect, could be the social aspect, could just be adrenaline.
fantasy: wanting to be famous/good at something so they experience this through proxy of proplayers.
social: something to talk about with your buddies/enjoying being part of the cheering crowd.
entertainment/excitement: do you think people in gladiatorial times wanted to go into an arena and kill or be killed? no, but they sure as hell liked to watch that shit.
judging: its easier to criticize others then to do it yourself.
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Spectator Sport.
It's why there's so many people watching monday night football on the couch who blow at football.
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First, I think your assumption that simply playing the game will make you a diamond/masters player. Since the leagues are based off percentages of the active population, if everyone played more, the same amount of players would still be in the same leagues. Also if it were simply the case that practicing more makes you an infinitely better player this is false. While everyone can improve, the skill ceiling for each player will be different, no matter how hard they train. If this were not the case professional athletes would not be paid millions as they would not be such a rare commodity.
Second, I think you are forgetting one factor. Casters. Casters make all the difference in the world. A good caster breaks down the game in a way that someone completely new to the game can understand the strategic plays and even the emotion of the game as the balance of power shifts back and forth.
To speak from personal experience, I took my wife to BlizzCon in 09 and her original plan was to hang out at the hotel and lay out by the pool and visit the spa, but I encouraged her to come and watch a few games. She begrudgingly agreed and actually enjoyed the games (WC3) even though she had never played the game. She even got to the point where she looked at the schedule and went to the rest of the casted games and ended up routing for Lyn who won the whole tournament, besting my favorite player at the time Grubby.
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On March 21 2011 01:18 Raii wrote:
Just a question, how does age have anything to do with the discussion?
I think he most likely meant to say "maturity."
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I guess that Starcraft and other e-sports are just evolving into the roles that other sports normally take: having training as children (kids playing), the best of the good people going into playing it profesionally, and there still being a small following of the sport within the adult community. As gaming is more accepted into the world as a pastime, so will e-sports as actual sports.
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On March 20 2011 07:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this Thats makes equally little sense to me
If you don't understand the appeal of spectator sports or following professional competitions in any context, I don't think any of us will be able to explain it to you in the context of SC2. Most people greatly enjoy following their favorite country/team/player/etc. through a rigorous competition, and this has nothing to do with wanting to compete at the highest level in that activity themselves.
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I'm honestly not sure about this topic at all, you're making an awful lot of baseless assumptions to begin with. Unless you meant to say 'non-pro/serious-players, i would argue (admittedly equally baselessly) that most people watching SC2 games/vods/replays ARE SC2 players. Having been involved in esports since 2003 (yeah, it started before SC2, get over it already) it's my experience that the vast majority of esports fans are also esports players at some level. WoW is the perfect example of this, as has already been stated.
On another topic: "When was the last time they changed the shape of the ball in football? Or changed the maximum number of players on the field?"
How about when they changed the numbers of subs on the bench a couple seasons ago? How about when they alter the interpretation of the offside rule every few years (interfering with play, legal goalscoring body part etc etc)? How about when they introduced the backpass rule? This is a terrible argument.
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On March 20 2011 07:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:30 VarpuliS wrote:On March 20 2011 07:28 Zaphid wrote:
Majority of people who watch football would have trouble sprinting across the whole field, simple really.
^^ this Thats makes equally little sense to me
By your logic all MMA fans must actually practice MMA.
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Before I played SC2 I never thought I'd be interested at all in watching a game, but now I enjoy watching games almost as much as playing.
I was drawn in when an in-game friend brought up the fact he watced the GSL. I was curious and watched a bit myself and found it entertaining. What I would say is that for me 70% of what makes it interesting is the commentating.
Artosis and Tasteless make the games exciting to watch and they can be funny. They also talk a lot about all the players and help veiwers connect with them. Which over a bit of time helps viewers single out favourite players to follow.
Also the casters knowlegde of the game covers over the gaps in my own skill and understanding of the games. They will pick up on little details that you might miss and explain why it's clever (this negates the point having to play the game much to understand even the complex high-skill moments).
I will also switch off casts if the caster is dull, annoying, unprofessional or hard to understand.
I've had the game since launch and but only get chance to play every now then so in total I have 100 or so 1v1s, 200 or so team games and sitting around gold/plat level.
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Lol at the resentment and defensiveness in this thread.
After I watch pro tennis, I want to play tennis. After I watch the World Cup/Premier, I want to play soccer. I don't really like basketball, but after I watch NBA, I want to play basketball. MLB and NFL take a lot of infrastructure and players to play, and it's not all that much fun to have a catch. But tennis, soccer, and basketball are all decently approximated by a few amateurs with makeshift or cheap equipment. All the NBA fans I know, the guys who'll sit down to watch whatever game is on, love to play ball and do it as much as they can.
As for the non-sports examples: yes, I don't understand how someone who loves music wouldn't play a lot of music. My friends who really love are always doodling or working on some project.
So I share the OP's confusion. I don't understand how someone could really watch 2 or 3 hours of a stream without wanting to get on BNET. And it's so much easier to play "pickup" than any sport, especially if you already have the ability to watch streams!
I've gone through periods where other commitments divert my energy from SC2 or music or other hobbies. When time and energy are tight, I might watch a replay or a GSL series or something instead of squeezing in a game. But aside from that, all the excuses in this thread are pretty weird.
And lol at all the posters who just focused on OP's claim that anyone who loved the game could be diamond.
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On March 22 2011 02:16 briandawkins wrote:
... all the excuses in this thread are pretty weird....
I don't think they're excuses, they're explanations to the OP. Myself I hardly play sc2, finished the campaign and played after, got placed in gold and then stopped, I play other games but watch sc2 streams every day at least a few hours. I do the same thing with Snooker, doesn't mean I'm any good at Snooker or Football, but I enjoy watching it.
Just like the OP can't understand why it's enjoyable to watch a sport you're not actively doing, I could also ask the same question, does that mean that if you are not good or don't practice a sport that means you shouldn't watch it as a spectator ?
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starcraft takes soooo much work and dedication to be any good at compared to literally any other video game
How many people watch football/soccer/baseball etc. but literally havent played since they were in school?
it's that much work except it isn't physically strenuous, but i am just talking about time you have to dedicate to it
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I think that's what makes StarCraft to such an easy to like game. Even though you're not even close to master the game, you can still really enjoy it. When it comes to myself I played just a couple of StarCraft: BW games, and none at all i StarCraft 2, but still, I love the whole community around the game.
The myth about it's greatness in Korea, the legendary players, the uprising interest among players in general, the big tournaments! What is it not to like, even if you don't play yourself? I spend whole days just thinking about StarCraft, even though I suck big time. ^^
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In short, Starcraft has grown to be something of a spectator sport. As for myself, I love playing games but watching someone do a better job than me at it is just as entertaining. I play very minimally (only 15 1v1 games under my belt because I haven't the time to dedicate a reasonable amount of time to improving myself yet) but I understand enough of the game to appreciate and enjoy the subtle nuances that make pro level games what they are compared to a regular, run-of-the-mill match. If I can't play at that level, why not enjoy watching others do so? It's just like watching any other sport; not everyone can play basketball or baseball at a professional level but it's a treat to watch someone else play who can transcend average or ordinary skill level.
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Hmmm, I'm one of these people and I can say I love the game but I get bored playing and even though I feel great when I win I don't have that passion where I enjoy every moment of the game.
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It takes a lot less time, commitment, and level-headedness to watch lots of Starcraft 2 than it does to get to at least diamond.  I can follow the GSL by running it in the background on my second monitor at work. I can't do that with playing. =P
I suspect that most people who are watching ESPORTS are, like me, people who play a little bit but don't have the mechanics, multitasking, or dedication to actually get good at the game currently.
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There are thousands of games to be played for new players before you even approach your immediate potential (as opposed to long term potential)
and there is so much depth that only experience can help you understand. You totally look at the game through different eyes when you're new, and it makes it sooo much harder feel like you can possibly get good enough to enjoy it.
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does that mean that if you are not good or don't practice a sport that means you shouldn't watch it as a spectator ?
I didn't say anything about being good. I'm a shitty athlete, a mediocre musician, and a plat level SC2 player.
Edit: I also didn't say anything about what people "should" do.
I can say I love the game but I get bored playing
Do you really think you love the game? I mean, I like watching baseball, I get bored playing it. I would never say that I love it. And I know we're just throwing around words on the internet, but the point of the thread is to understand and distinguish levels of appreciation.
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I haven't jumped into the multiplayer and I doubt I ever will but I've been watching a lot of SC2 in recent months. Especially the GSL and now the TSL. I do have prior experience playing years of SC/SC:BW so the game isn't alien to me and I was pretty good in the circle I ran with. I also completed the single-player and play a couple of customs of SC2.
As far as wanting to play is concerned sure I do but I don't like sucking and with the backlog of other games to play plus the amount of good to great games in the future, it's a reversal of my childhood where a good to great game didn't come out every month and a lack of money allowed me to play Diablo II, Warcraft III, StarCraft and Counter-Strike for years. I have also been playing Team Fortress 2 for years now and that was just so much easier to jump into and win.
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Like others have said, this is a GOOD thing. You can't grow esports if the only people watching are hardcore gamers.
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I personally find it odd that non palyers watch sc2, i dont think it would be that appealing, but im happy that it is! the more viewers the better ^^
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Very good point of OP. I think that might happen because people who are really good at sc2(like u said, pros) spend alot more time IN the game, this might be why they care about the game balance alot more than people from lower leagues. The balance affects them alot more than people who dont really play the game, so i guess this is why the balance talk is their priority(they can see some unfair advantages while casual gamers cant see it because they simply dont play enough). Also, if You spend 6-12 hours playing then You dont really have so much time to care about posting on forums etc. while players who spend 1 hour playing can spend alot more time posting/doing some community things.
And i dont really think its bad. Its great that alot of people like this game, i dont think it will become as big as soccer is(sadly).
I'm just wondering is this because the game is that good and enjoyable, or is this because of big money invested into hyping sc2.
Sorry for poor english. Have a nice day Sir.
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I find it kind of odd a an avid spectator would not want to play. If anything I would think people would play simply for fun. Sports are actually quite difficult to get into, they require equipment, people and scheduling. All you need for SC is a computer and an internet connection.
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On March 22 2011 03:42 briandawkins wrote:Do you really think you love the game? I mean, I like watching baseball, I get bored playing it. I would never say that I love it. And I know we're just throwing around words on the internet, but the point of the thread is to understand and distinguish levels of appreciation.
I think that that love for a game can be derived from purely a spectator's standpoint. After all, there are millions of diehard fans of baseball, for example, yet the vast majority of those fans sure as hell know that if they tried to play baseball with their amateur skill level, it'd be pisspoor and boring match. Many people just love the game because it's that skill that pros put into a game that provides the excitement that you wouldn't get from playing yourself.
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a league system is supposed to have people in lower leagues since there is not enough space in the higher leagues for all the people. So its completly false that everyone can be atleast in diamond, if everyone would be that good, there would be no difference between bronze and diamond but people would still be in bronze.
Anyway people that play something spectate less, people that spectate play less
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i think alot of it has to do with Casters also.
if you dont have good casters, then whos going to brake it down for the noobs?
Artosis and tastleless is the reason i watch gsl (in addition to seeing good players play).
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On March 20 2011 07:59 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:38 tattoos and creep wrote:
it's a matter of entertainment. I have a friend that looks many games (GSL, TSL, etc...) and he's not EVEN playing the game. We sometimes discuss the game and all, and we actually have fun doing it. Oh and yeah im having fun in my golden league. I guess I kind of see people who dont play sc2 enjoying watching it as something like going to the jungles of Brazil and showing the tribes people phil ivey doing a crazy bluff or something. They would be like, ok who cares about this shit. Which is how I would think people who dont play sc2 would look at a sc2 game. But then I am faced with these people being the majority of the viewing audience and people who post the most about the game??? something doesnt click for me
Ok, this was a very wrong and mean thing to say =(
The thing is, once a player get enough knowledge to know what's happening on the sceen, even if he doesn't know how to do those things, it will be fun to watch.
Actually, all intelectual sports is just like this, poker, chess, starcraft etc.
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On March 22 2011 02:16 briandawkins wrote:
And lol at all the posters who just focused on OP's claim that anyone who loved the game could be diamond.
That comment is a good illustration that the OP just isn't thinking clearly (since it's not possible for 100% of players to be in the top 20%.)
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you ever watch hockey? can you stop goals like hasek?
you ever watch soccer? can you juke people like ronaldinho?
you ever watch movies? can you direct one like spielberg?
you ever watch golf? can you cheat on your wife like tiger?
i dunno maybe people watch it cause its entertaining? possibly?
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Cool, the game is entertaining to watch and people who don't even play it want to watch it!
So when is SC2 going to be on TV?
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I pay attention to SC2 because I enjoy watching it. Between work, school, social life, etc. I don't have as much time as I'd like to put into play SC2, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to enjoy it in other ways.
The only other sport I enjoy watching is MMA, so I'd love it if eSports took off and I could kick back on my couch at home and watch SC2 instead of football or whatever.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On March 22 2011 04:07 irishash wrote:
you ever watch hockey? can you stop goals like hasek?
you ever watch soccer? can you juke people like ronaldinho?
you ever watch movies? can you direct one like spielberg?
you ever watch golf? can you cheat on your wife like tiger?
i dunno maybe people watch it cause its entertaining? possibly?
this. end of thread.
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EPT
