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On March 20 2011 09:18 Bijan wrote:
If I love watching pro SC2, it is in my best interest to see the community grow. The more people watch, the more money is involved. The more money involved, the harder the players work to get it. The harder the players work, the better quality the games become. And therein lies all the e-sports advocacy. We just want to see even better games then we're already seeing, because we love watching the pros play.
well said.
I kinda figured since I play the game more than a whole lot of people and am still too lazy/unwilling to do any of that, what could possibly motivate other people who play far less than me to do much more to support it. Seems like star2 would have to be really damn entertaining that people who dont have enough time to play the game take what little free time they have to go out of their way to support it. It seems to me, that the level of entertainment observing the game would have to provide would require a really indepth understanding of the game, one that is only reached with playing the game alot.
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On March 20 2011 09:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 09:18 Bijan wrote:
If I love watching pro SC2, it is in my best interest to see the community grow. The more people watch, the more money is involved. The more money involved, the harder the players work to get it. The harder the players work, the better quality the games become. And therein lies all the e-sports advocacy. We just want to see even better games then we're already seeing, because we love watching the pros play. well said. I kinda figured since I play the game more than a whole lot of people and am still too lazy/unwilling to do any of that, what could possibly motivate other people who play far less than me to do much more to support it. Seems like star2 would have to be really damn entertaining that people who dont have enough time to play the game take what little free time they have to go out of their way to support it. It seems to me, that the level of entertainment observing the game would have to provide would require a really indepth understanding of the game, one that is only reached with playing the game alot.
Well everyone likes to think they understand the game to a good degree 
Also, you don't need to understand all the intricacies of balance and strategies, you just need to be able to recognize the consequences of what you see on screen.
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I'm bronze. I play maybe a few games a week. I probably watch 20+ games a week between GSL, Destiny, and Day9.
I feel like I understand the game fairly well. I'm a poor player because I don't have the time or energy to practice build orders, macro, scouting, increasing mouse speed, etc. I enjoy the strategy and tactics going on in the game, but it's stressful and tiring for me to try to replicate what I see when I play.
So yes, I probably don't understand what's going through a player's head when they scout gas then pool or pool then gas, but I know that both are safe openings meant to hold off early pressure with speed zerglings, as opposed to the more risky economic play of a 14 hatch.
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"And just statistically speaking, the majority of people in the sc2 population are NOT diamond+."
Sorry but my mind imploded here.
It is so often that I see this perception of leagues. Bnet leagues are not a measure of skill, it is a measure of your skill against others. The question you are asking sounds like this to me: why is it that people who are not better than other people love esports? Others said it before me, the more numerous a league the more likely you take notice of them loving esports, hating the game, etc.
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On March 20 2011 09:34 Kelethius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 09:18 Bijan wrote:
If I love watching pro SC2, it is in my best interest to see the community grow. The more people watch, the more money is involved. The more money involved, the harder the players work to get it. The harder the players work, the better quality the games become. And therein lies all the e-sports advocacy. We just want to see even better games then we're already seeing, because we love watching the pros play. well said. I kinda figured since I play the game more than a whole lot of people and am still too lazy/unwilling to do any of that, what could possibly motivate other people who play far less than me to do much more to support it. Seems like star2 would have to be really damn entertaining that people who dont have enough time to play the game take what little free time they have to go out of their way to support it. It seems to me, that the level of entertainment observing the game would have to provide would require a really indepth understanding of the game, one that is only reached with playing the game alot.
I think it's a faulty assumption to think that it requires someone with a high level of play to obtain an in depth understanding of the game - to an extent. Obviously, there's a difference between the speed in which Artosis can recognize a build or strategy, and someone like myself. However, that doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on almost all of the time. Take BW for instance. Many of us fans are barely D level players on ICCup, or even less (I haven't played for years, and back when I played, I sucked ass). However, the reason why I love the pro-scene is because of the high level of play that I can appreciate. I don't need to have 400 apm JD mechanics to appreciate what he does, and the intricacies of everything can easily be learned by any layman just from constantly reading sites like TL, and listening to pros commentate and talk about the game. It's knowledge gained through osmosis and immersion, not through playing.
Without fans who supported the BW scene in Korea long before it became a national sport (and I doubt many of them came close to playing on a pro level), we wouldn't have players like JD and Flash today for all of us lesser mortals to appreciate. The same logic extends to SC2.
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I honestly don't get what playing the game has to do with watching pro games
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Because people like watching what they can't do themselves.
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I love watching football, the american kind. Im also a 5'6 140 lb asian man, so the level at which i could play that sport is basically non existant. I dont understand why watching the game and playing it are two things that should be linked. Of course, someone who already plays will also probably enjoy watching it being played at a higher level.
The fact that people who dont play the game a lot/at all are still interested in it is a good thing. In fact, it is exactly what is needed in order for the scene to grow.
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I'm one of those people. I have a very busy job, so I don't have the time to practice enough to be decent at SC2. But I fondly remember playing SC1 in middle school, and I'm just excited that a past-time that I enjoyed so much (or rather a derivative of it) is becoming so popular. I wasn't into the SC1 pro scene, but the launch of SC2 reminded me of the classic and revived my interest in both games.
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having people who don't play SC2 and are fans is a good thing, no a GREAT thing! Why? Because CS 1.6 never would have grown into a huge phenomenon without casuals because it's those people who have the most time to follow the sport itself. It's very hard to play a LOT of starcraft and have a normal life while also keeping up with the hundreds if not thousands of events world wide. We need these casuals because they are the ones who buy into the competitive scene by supporting it, watching streams, paying for GSL going to MLG, etc.
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To enjoy a game of SC2 you don't need to know all the 'rules'. You know the basics like one team vs another. They have to gather resources that will be used to construct buildings that will enable you create several units. With those units you battle your enemy and if you destroy him you win. Simple, right?
Even if you never played a game a good caster can fill in the your knowlegde gaps in a way you will understand what is going on and will be able to follow the action.
If many of Day9's followers don't even play its a sign of Sean's ability to present Starcraft in a way that even someone not into video games can enjoy. (He is uber baller ^^).
And that is what E-Sports needs. Because E-sports is a sport like football (soccer for NA). But it's an Electronic-Sport. Played in a electronic plataform.
Can you imagine if everybody you see in the football (again soccer for the NA) stadiums played football like their favorite players? Most of them don't play at all but they sure can enjoy and be excited we seeing a match, right?
And more important: some despite not playing can understand deeply the game and give opinions, remarks and/or observations with a great value. The same happen with starcraft.
Many will give their opinions (like they do in every sport around QQing about the tactics of a certain coach or a certain player) about SC strategies, tactics, balance, etc. but only some few will actually say something with importance.
E-Sports are indeed growing, SC2 beeing one of the main pillars of it. But it wont be us that are already into E-Sports that will make them grow: it will be the ones that we will be able to attract to it.
sry. about typos.
ps.: for all NA: football is played with the feet and not with the hands...^^
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I cannot do a marine spread like MarineKing can. I do not have the micro to be able to slice marines that precisely to minimize the damage of banelings.
I cannot FF as precisely as MC can to totally nullify an enemies army as they come knocking at my door. My mouse hand is not trained well enough to do so.
I do not have the timings down 100% for my buildings to be able to afford 7 mutas as soon as my spire hatches while still keeping my base defended and macroing drones like idra can.
But I can sit at my computer, turn on a stream and go "HOLY SHIT! I sure wish I could do that..."
This is why people watch the game, go to the game, and are fans of the game. They see something amazing, someone doing 3 drops at once, storm drops, perfect concaves, marine micro, FF micro, etc, etc etc... and they go "HOLY SHIT That was cool!!!!" and they have fun watching these amazing things because they cannot do them, and they blew their minds.
As they watch, they slowly find players that they enjoy to watch play the game, I like watching idra, catz, and minigun. These three players I think play the game amazingly, and I root for them in every tourney I can.
I am NOT as good as they are, and most likely never will be. But I can appreciate the time they put in, and I can root for them to win a tourney versus equally skilled opponents.
The game is fun to watch, I can't do 99% of what pro's can, but I can tell that they just did something awesome. Be is in a macro senses or micro sense. Strategic or Tactical. Not to mention, commentators help.
They point out things that you never would of noticed before, then when you watch another game, you notice that little thing and think to your self "damn I am pro" and you feel good because you learned something about a game you like watching.
Not to mention, many people, my self included, enjoy watching people play video games more than watching TV or Movies. This is my relaxation television. I can watch SC2 and watch Catz proxy hatch, or watch idra out macro some noob so badly that he just quits as soon as he sees idra's army. I can watch orb rage, or watch MrBitter giving advice. Its entertaining.
If I want to, I can watch the games for educational value, but most of the time I choose not to... its fun to do, its how I spend my free time. How hard is that for you to understand...
SC2 is a VERY simple game once explained (like a caster does). My gf who simply sits in the same room as I do when I watch as stream is catching on to SC terms simply through listening to streams... the game is not that hard to get into.
Some units shoot things, some units melee things, workers get minerals and build things. You build things to get units. You use units to kill the other guy. ZOMG this is 100% SC2.
You don't need to know that a 9 overlord > 10 overlord to enjoy a game where someone baneling drops a P's deathball and rolls over them.
You don't need to know that a 3 gate expansion is more economical than a 4 gate. But you can enjoy the micro battle that ensues as the 3 gater tries to survive.
You don't need to know how many banelings it takes to kill a marine, to be able to know that when someone sends 20 banelings at 20 marines, and no marines dies, that something amazing just happened.
You don't need to be a pro to understand the game, you just need eyes, and when someone is killing someone else in a way that is totally one sided, you know something awesome just happened... especially when the comentator starts freaking out "OMG THE BANELINGS!", "... and he's dropping the zergs 3rd, And 2nd, OMFG AND HIS 3rd, HOW WILL HE SURVIVE THIS ONE?!?!?!?"
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I've never played a game of SC2 in my life, but I constantly support the scene. I go to viewing parties up here in Toronto, I introduce my friends to the game and I occasionally annoy my friends by talking about it when they just don't care. Why? Because I love the game and if people don't care it might fade into obscurity.
You're right, e-sports is a different beast from something like hockey - because it's not societally recognized as a sport. Tasteless and Artosis say it every day, without the support of viewers and sponsors these things wouldn't be possible. I may not have the time or desire to be a great SC2 player (and it's for the best, I become a dick when I game too much) but I can think ahead far enough to say "I like watching this, maybe I should do something to make sure it continues to exist"
To reiterate: never touched a game, my computer couldn't handle the game and yet I try to be an advocate for the game because I want to see e-sports recognized as legitimate. I don't see why that's difficult to understand.
Cheers
-Tai
Edit: Insanious, very well said. I forgot to mention the connection between a fan and specific players, but you summed it up very well.
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spectators
it's what makes a sport
sc2 has em
???
GG
seriously though, soon esports will be very widely accepted (or at least "legit") because the argument "it's just a game" doesn't even make sense nor does it explain why an esport, with millions of fans, should be looked down upon
@insanious
well said !
@Tai
i commend u for supporting esprots  and everyone else too
wish i still lived in toronto. much better than here in USA. i miss my homies, and i miss that i could have been to the toronto gsl finals events ;(
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I think you're making a big disconnect between being a starcraft player and being a competitive starcraft player. I've been going back and forth between rank 1 and 10 in my platinum division for the last couple of months. I'm not a competitive player by any means and I don't feel the need to get better at the game, but, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing the game. I still buy tickets to every GSL the day they're available and I always go with the high quality pay streams for things like MLG. I watch the day9 daily and state of the game live whenever I get the chance though. Just because someone doesn't want to be the next MC, Jinro, Idra, or whoever doesn't mean that they don't absolutely love the game and want to see esports grow.
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The fact that it isn't isolated to the players who play 2-3 hours a day is a great thing. It just shows that you don't have to know the in's and outs of the game in order to enjoy it. I really love starcraft and I really love e-sports I just can't motivate myself to play that many games a day, it's just startcraft really, I come from an FPS background and I can easily play 2-3 hours of that.
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Australia8532 Posts
Like any other sport that requires professionals?
I bet there is a lot more people that can watch a monday night football game than actually play a game of football?
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Starcraft isn't intuitive to play. You have to put effort in, learn how to win and think/copy build etc. Thats why I don't play. Plus multitasking ain't fun for me. But if you like the game you can watch casts and be entertained.. Also I never seen another game with as much coverage. Other games I like have little or bad (as in boring I'm looking at you Seananners) coverage. Plus there is always a stream up etc.
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Starcraft 2 seems to be alot more personable, you hear alot more about the players personalities than other games, or even sports, which makes it more relatable and enjoy to watch them play, for whatever reason.
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Playing Starcraft competetivly (which laddering is) is incredibly stressful.
And watching other people play is not. I can also enjoy watching football, but I am also the kind of person that stops and listens if I hear a good street musician.
And especially in Starcraft it never ceases to amaze me how incredibly good some people are. And it doesn't have to be insane micro tricks that amaze me. Seeing someone kite a zealot with a marauder and looking at the edges of the screen how he switches his buildings at a tech lab usually is enough to leave me upset at how they are not as bad as me.
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EPT
