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On October 24 2018 03:52 Artas1984 wrote:
Well now once again, the afreeca video in youtube got deleted due to audio copyright infringements!!! I advise you to watch the finals live, or you might only find the finals uploaded elsewhere in Korean language!
Speaking about broadcast, it's an incredible disappointment, that Tastetossis will not cast the finals... We will have mr. Rapid and mr. Soya casting. I would be fine with Rapid solo casting, as he made tremendous progress since the early days as a BroodWar commentator, but that Soya guy is soooo boring - every word that comes from his mouth is about him being very good in Starcraft 2...
Flash annihilating Mini and Shuttle were the most disappointing battles i've seen this season. I am not sure should i be shocked at just how poorly Mini and Shuttle prepared or that Flash just reached ultra instinct Gosu level - a level beyond what he was in ASL5.
Somebody please post a working link to todays match!
Or just subscribe to this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGIx6XUmoVMf01PVrOjVbRA
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On October 24 2018 03:58 Dantak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 03:52 Artas1984 wrote:
Well now once again, the afreeca video in youtube got deleted due to audio copyright infringements!!! I advise you to watch the finals live, or you might only find the finals uploaded elsewhere in Korean language!
Speaking about broadcast, it's an incredible disappointment, that Tastetossis will not cast the finals... We will have mr. Rapid and mr. Soya casting. I would be fine with Rapid solo casting, as he made tremendous progress since the early days as a BroodWar commentator, but that Soya guy is soooo boring - every word that comes from his mouth is about him being very good in Starcraft 2...
Flash annihilating Mini and Shuttle were the most disappointing battles i've seen this season. I am not sure should i be shocked at just how poorly Mini and Shuttle prepared or that Flash just reached ultra instinct Gosu level - a level beyond what he was in ASL5.
Somebody please post a working link to todays match! Or just subscribe to this guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGIx6XUmoVMf01PVrOjVbRA
ASL uploads the english casted VOD's here: http://afreecatv.com/aslenglish
At least for me the VOD works fine but I don't know if it is the case for other regions. Not having Tastosis for the finals is just very sad...
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On October 24 2018 02:47 Shady Sands wrote:
Savior race switched to Terran at one point, didn't end well. No need for Flash to do the same
Flash will be fine. Competing for championships right away. He is already one of the best Protosses in the world.
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Flash & effort ... Bring out the plane
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On October 24 2018 04:36 sparklyresidue wrote:
Flash & effort ... Bring out the plane
Shush...I still have nightmares about that….and I am a CJ and EffOrt fan all the way but that was supposed to be Flash's tournament to end the crying jaedong fans at the time xD
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How do the maps for finals looks statistically for tvz? I guess not favorable for z (as usual), but wonder by how much.
I don't think Flash will underestimate Effort this time. He will prepare like mad, checking every single possibility because he needs the revenge for that OSL final.
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Shuttle's play was not particularly inspired today, nothing to do with TvP balance
He sat back with his carriers waiting for the worst possible moment to engage, no kiting from the cliff at all
In the CB game he also engaged at the worst moment, and didn't defend his 3rd when that was his only chance of surviving, just poor strategical thinking overall
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On October 24 2018 00:59 LG)Sabbath wrote:
Honestly these games weren't even fun to watch, Shuttle just got dismantled, nothing he did ever had any chance of working
I disagree, he did some good stuff, but he didn't execute it anywhere near as well as Flash did, but he created openings and with sharper execution and better multi tasking it could've worked.
But now, Flash was just better...
Really really disappointing that Tastosis isn't casting the finals, Rapid and NoRegret are fine but for the finals it just feels really lackluster to me. 
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Geez it's alright to be disappointed with the games but the amount of Flash hate is ridiculous. The guy has been one of the most hardworking progamers to ever exist in BW - he deserves all the success he has gotten. Not to mention, for how good he is, he is also an incredibly humble person. How can you not at least respect him for that.
You think Jaedong or anybody else wants Flash to offrace just for the sake of winning? They are competitors; the entire appeal is to attempt to best Flash at the height of his powers.
If he wins another title, so be it.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 05:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Geez it's alright to be disappointed with the games but the amount of Flash hate is ridiculous. The guy has been one of the most hardworking progamers to ever exist in BW - he deserves all the success he has gotten. Not to mention, for how good he is, he is also an incredibly humble person. How can you not at least respect him for that.
You think Jaedong or anybody else wants Flash to offrace just for the sake of winning? They are competitors; the entire appeal is to attempt to best Flash at the height of his powers.
If he wins another title, so be it.
Pretty much. It's silly that some people even want him to switch races, and will lose respect if he doesn't. If Flash switches, then that's the same as him retiring for me because Flash is synonymous with Terran at this point, and he's the only guy who has carried the race really hard in this era (I'm sure someone will try to argue this lol).
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On October 24 2018 05:51 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 05:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Geez it's alright to be disappointed with the games but the amount of Flash hate is ridiculous. The guy has been one of the most hardworking progamers to ever exist in BW - he deserves all the success he has gotten. Not to mention, for how good he is, he is also an incredibly humble person. How can you not at least respect him for that.
You think Jaedong or anybody else wants Flash to offrace just for the sake of winning? They are competitors; the entire appeal is to attempt to best Flash at the height of his powers.
If he wins another title, so be it. Pretty much. It's silly that some people even want him to switch races, and will lose respect if he doesn't. If Flash switches, then that's the same as him retiring for me because Flash is synonymous with Terran at this point, and he's the only guy who has carried the race really hard in this era (I'm sure someone will try to argue this lol).
Losing respect for him is beyond ridiculous in my opinion.
But, it would be fascinating to watch him switch. Why? In my opinion FlaSh has basically done everything he can do with terran. Wins, builds, defenses, a complete masterclass. It's beautiful to watch, and it's not something I would grow tired of, but I've seen it. It amazes me each time, but it's not new.
Watching the greatest strategic mind in BW history attempt to switch races and be successful with that race would be fascinating and new. Whatever FlaSh does, I'm going to enjoy his games, but it would be more interesting to me to watch him attempt a new challenge at this point.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 06:00 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 05:51 BigFan wrote:On October 24 2018 05:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Geez it's alright to be disappointed with the games but the amount of Flash hate is ridiculous. The guy has been one of the most hardworking progamers to ever exist in BW - he deserves all the success he has gotten. Not to mention, for how good he is, he is also an incredibly humble person. How can you not at least respect him for that.
You think Jaedong or anybody else wants Flash to offrace just for the sake of winning? They are competitors; the entire appeal is to attempt to best Flash at the height of his powers.
If he wins another title, so be it. Pretty much. It's silly that some people even want him to switch races, and will lose respect if he doesn't. If Flash switches, then that's the same as him retiring for me because Flash is synonymous with Terran at this point, and he's the only guy who has carried the race really hard in this era (I'm sure someone will try to argue this lol). Losing respect for him is beyond ridiculous in my opinion. But, it would be fascinating to watch him switch. Why? In my opinion FlaSh has basically done everything he can do with terran. Wins, builds, defenses, a complete masterclass. It's beautiful to watch, and it's not something I would grow tired of, but I've seen it. It amazes me each time, but it's not new. Watching the greatest strategic mind in BW history attempt to switch races and be successful with that race would be fascinating and new. Whatever FlaSh does, I'm going to enjoy his games, but it would be more interesting to me to watch him attempt a new challenge at this point.
Maybe so, and sure, I'd like to see what he can cook up but Terran plays a lot differently than Protoss or Zerg. I believe Flash has gone on the record to say that Zerg was a hard race for him. However, that's not the problem. The problem is that if Flash changes races, even if a player wins ASL beating Protoss or Zerg Flash, the accomplish imo would feel void. Snow beat Flash last ASL, and people went wild. Flash losing to a Zerg or Protoss at his peak is something that many people want to see, and I'm sure even he is starting to wonder when someone will come along, and really challenge him, the way few have so far.
Regardless, this is all up to Flash. I doubt he'll switch purely for the fans, and because why change something that's extremely good, and beneficial for you? He already off-races on stream sometimes (I believe he's beaten other pros with his protoss, dunno about Zerg) so he already has an idea of how the races play out etc... I would rather he retired than switched races at this point.
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I do wonder how the Terran race would look pro scene wise without Flash. Other than Last it would be utterly fucked.
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On October 24 2018 02:52 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 01:32 L_Master wrote:On October 24 2018 00:24 Bonyth wrote:
or it could be that he reached the level that is impossible for other races to reach Honestly, Flash's credentials are unparalleled. I guess there is concern about legacy cementing, but I think that's about as solid as it gets. It would be pretty fascinating if he tried to switch and get good with another race. I keep secretly hoping this will happen just to see him try. Flash is amazing, but Starcraft has a long history of Terran dominance, and I think the last few years as we increasingly reach that [theoretically unreachable] point of total knowledge, terran looks increasingly strong. It's not clear where Flash the legend begins and ends relative to Tesagi. It is clear to any rational observer that tesagi exists; just look at the strategical initiative current in tvz. 1-1-1 has basically deconstructed an already strategically very simple race. Throwing lings and hydras at terran is not a tenable solution. Effort vs last should be seen for what it is: Effort played very well hurrah, but we shouldnt lose sight of the very real despair behind how effort is playing. What he did is simply not tenable over the long term for zerg, and it wont be workable against flash. Worse, its not even the start of a blueprint for how to deal with 1-1-1. All ins like this are a very bad sign, especially given zerg hasnt created a new build in general for over a decade, so anyone that expects something new to arrive is kidding themselves.
Eh, it's pretty clear where it begins. At a level of understanding "sub FlaSh" Tesagi is basically irrelevant. 2k MMR terran don't dominate zerg. Neither do 3k MMR terrans. Afaik, all terrans, sub FlaSh, still struggle with PvT.
1-1-1 is concerning. But, again, from where did that basically come? Flash. Whose to say the issue here isn't that there just haven't been good enough zerg minds to come up with answers to terran's tactics. It's possible we are out of build ideas, but it's also possible that there just hasn't been a creative and strategically skilled enough zerg to make this open. In favor of that argument, I really doubt there would even be a 1-1-1, or maybe even a solid mech switch, without FlaSh figuring out how these things work and other terrans then learning by example.
I absolutely agree with with what you're saying about EffOrt and Jaedong and other's play versus terran. They really are going aggressive all ins against terran right now.
I'm not sure I agree completely that it's not a tenable solution though. It may be that 1-1-1's critical weakness is defense, and that zergs tech switching and early game unpredictability make 1-1-1 too unstable to be used long term. FYI: I'm not convinced of that. But it's not a possibility that can be ignored. Drawing on history, we could have, and did say, the same thing about 12 nex in it's origins. Eventually, 12 nex lost the majority of it's luster as terran realized and perfected a bunker rush for killing it. If the allins against 1-1-1 begin having further reduced win rates as time goes on...that would be a major concerns for zergs.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 06:09 NoS-Craig wrote:
I do wonder how the Terran race would look pro scene wise without Flash. Other than Last it would be utterly fucked.
Well, we've had Mind, sSak and Last win some tourneys, but otherwise, the only consistent Terran in the last year has been been Mind with Ro8 finishes in ASL. No other Terran has gone further than the quarterfinals, aside from Last in ASL1 and Sea in ASL2 if I'm not mistaken. Aka, the quarterfinals would be filled with Protoss and Zerg leading to many PvZ, PvP and ZvZ.
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I want flash to switch just to end the tesagi and balance whining 
Shuttle started off game 1 playing very well I thought. He wasnt afraid of going into a macro game against flash by taking a quick third, knowing the "flash goliath build" would pose no threat of a push. But then he takes a gamble with the reaver and ends up losing it. Still he came very close to breaking Flash after he took out his forces trying to get back home. After flash held that it was an uphill battle from there.
Game 2 and 3 is a little hazy for me, but shuttle just seemed to get progressively underwhelming as the series progressed. Lackluster defense of vultures in game2, which protoss has gotten so good at defending. And no round of reinforcements in game2 final battle. In game 3, tastosis praised him for being patient and not engaging Flash's army haphazardly. But then he proceeds to attack Flash's 3rd which was walled by depots while Flash's army was right there. And then I dont know what happened to his HTs, which were supposedly in the shuttles.
Meanwhile, Flash was great, I cant even enumerate all the correct decisions he made throughout that series. It was apparent to me that Shuttle came in here today having practiced very well, knowing how to take advantage of Flash's builds and tendencies. And I think that was seen most prominently in the first half of game 1. A better protoss could have very well beaten Flash with those builds.
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On October 24 2018 06:08 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 06:00 L_Master wrote:On October 24 2018 05:51 BigFan wrote:On October 24 2018 05:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Geez it's alright to be disappointed with the games but the amount of Flash hate is ridiculous. The guy has been one of the most hardworking progamers to ever exist in BW - he deserves all the success he has gotten. Not to mention, for how good he is, he is also an incredibly humble person. How can you not at least respect him for that.
You think Jaedong or anybody else wants Flash to offrace just for the sake of winning? They are competitors; the entire appeal is to attempt to best Flash at the height of his powers.
If he wins another title, so be it. Pretty much. It's silly that some people even want him to switch races, and will lose respect if he doesn't. If Flash switches, then that's the same as him retiring for me because Flash is synonymous with Terran at this point, and he's the only guy who has carried the race really hard in this era (I'm sure someone will try to argue this lol). Losing respect for him is beyond ridiculous in my opinion. But, it would be fascinating to watch him switch. Why? In my opinion FlaSh has basically done everything he can do with terran. Wins, builds, defenses, a complete masterclass. It's beautiful to watch, and it's not something I would grow tired of, but I've seen it. It amazes me each time, but it's not new. Watching the greatest strategic mind in BW history attempt to switch races and be successful with that race would be fascinating and new. Whatever FlaSh does, I'm going to enjoy his games, but it would be more interesting to me to watch him attempt a new challenge at this point. Maybe so, and sure, I'd like to see what he can cook up but Terran plays a lot differently than Protoss or Zerg. I believe Flash has gone on the record to say that Zerg was a hard race for him. However, that's not the problem. The problem is that if Flash changes races, even if a player wins ASL beating Protoss or Zerg Flash, the accomplish imo would feel void. Snow beat Flash last ASL, and people went wild. Flash losing to a Zerg or Protoss at his peak is something that many people want to see, and I'm sure even he is starting to wonder when someone will come along, and really challenge him, the way few have so far. Regardless, this is all up to Flash. I doubt he'll switch purely for the fans, and because why change something that's extremely good, and beneficial for you? He already off-races on stream sometimes (I believe he's beaten other pros with his protoss, dunno about Zerg) so he already has an idea of how the races play out etc... I would rather he retired than switched races at this point.
At some point Flash will retire. After he retires, will wins feel void without him? I don't think so. People will speculate at first and then that will fade. Flash switching is really a similar case in my mind. For me, wins would not be hollow.
Why change something that is good? Good question. Overall he has few reasons. There are two I can think of. One is if he is bored almost, and wants a new challenge. The other, is to cement his legacy. Everyone acknowledges Flash as the greatest ever. However, for some it's yea Flash is better than everyone else, but mostly because he plays terran. If he switched and dominated or became the best with another race he would put to death Tesagi, simultaneously silencing any and all doubt that he was the greatest because of his own abilities.
At least to me, if I was highly motivated by my legacy, that would be a significant incentive.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
Moreover, the big gap between Flash and the other Terrans
maybe follows a kind of circular relationship. Flash is the big target and people play ZvT and PvT (I doubt any Terran can really challenge him in TvT and it does not pertain to the point) like mad, so other Terrans suffer even more.
I'm haven't been home last week, so I didn't catch any of the games, but smart and composed and mechanically superb as Last is, he likes to stick to one style a lot. He has the mechanics and tactical acumen to execute 1-1-1 and 1-1-2 properly, but does he mix it up? I loved his Ro24 game with Soulkey where he opened 2-1-1 with valks and make Soulkey look hopeless. He opened 1-1-2 most of the games in their series in the KSL (with a 14 cc IIRC) and he did a factory opening in 3 of 4 games in the KSL finals, correct me if I'm wrong.
I imagine Flash doing a damn 8 rax into 1-1-1 and a 14cc and a +1 5rax with rax-cc-rax-aca-ebay and offensive ebays and anything in between. He's that scary in a boX because of this.
And I don't think he'll underestimate Effort. Remember someone translated his analysis on the games with JD? He was impressed that Effort spotted the vulture that kept killing drones.
Impressed.
No, I don't think he underestimates anyone, least of all Effort. Remember his finals vs Shine in asl3? He diligently scouted with as many SCVs as needed to spot for cheese. He respects both his opponent and the stage he's on.
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TLADT24920 Posts
^ Yes, Last tends to stick to one build and play it heavily. He really really needs to diversify a lot more imo. Much like you said, Flash is competent in so many builds that he can easily whip one out, and beat you with it.
I highly doubt Flash underestimates EffOrt, probably the reverse. Flash also highly respects Jaedong, and this was part of the reason he lost their Neo Transistor game. He overthought things, and lost to that zergling into muta attack. If anything, this is the only way EffOrt can win imo. Having said that, if people think EffOrt will do some reverse sweep, or win like those old OSL finals, they are mistaken. EffOrt is tricky, and could pick off a game, but I expect Flash to scan, scout, and do everything in his power to figure out what EffOrt is doing. Flash losing in the finals is a huge upset imo, can't be overstated.
He likely will also learn from Last's mistakes, and avoid games like that second game on Circuit Breaker through diligent scouting etc...
On October 24 2018 06:38 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 06:08 BigFan wrote:On October 24 2018 06:00 L_Master wrote:On October 24 2018 05:51 BigFan wrote:On October 24 2018 05:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Geez it's alright to be disappointed with the games but the amount of Flash hate is ridiculous. The guy has been one of the most hardworking progamers to ever exist in BW - he deserves all the success he has gotten. Not to mention, for how good he is, he is also an incredibly humble person. How can you not at least respect him for that.
You think Jaedong or anybody else wants Flash to offrace just for the sake of winning? They are competitors; the entire appeal is to attempt to best Flash at the height of his powers.
If he wins another title, so be it. Pretty much. It's silly that some people even want him to switch races, and will lose respect if he doesn't. If Flash switches, then that's the same as him retiring for me because Flash is synonymous with Terran at this point, and he's the only guy who has carried the race really hard in this era (I'm sure someone will try to argue this lol). Losing respect for him is beyond ridiculous in my opinion. But, it would be fascinating to watch him switch. Why? In my opinion FlaSh has basically done everything he can do with terran. Wins, builds, defenses, a complete masterclass. It's beautiful to watch, and it's not something I would grow tired of, but I've seen it. It amazes me each time, but it's not new. Watching the greatest strategic mind in BW history attempt to switch races and be successful with that race would be fascinating and new. Whatever FlaSh does, I'm going to enjoy his games, but it would be more interesting to me to watch him attempt a new challenge at this point. Maybe so, and sure, I'd like to see what he can cook up but Terran plays a lot differently than Protoss or Zerg. I believe Flash has gone on the record to say that Zerg was a hard race for him. However, that's not the problem. The problem is that if Flash changes races, even if a player wins ASL beating Protoss or Zerg Flash, the accomplish imo would feel void. Snow beat Flash last ASL, and people went wild. Flash losing to a Zerg or Protoss at his peak is something that many people want to see, and I'm sure even he is starting to wonder when someone will come along, and really challenge him, the way few have so far. Regardless, this is all up to Flash. I doubt he'll switch purely for the fans, and because why change something that's extremely good, and beneficial for you? He already off-races on stream sometimes (I believe he's beaten other pros with his protoss, dunno about Zerg) so he already has an idea of how the races play out etc... I would rather he retired than switched races at this point. At some point Flash will retire. After he retires, will wins feel void without him? I don't think so. People will speculate at first and then that will fade. Flash switching is really a similar case in my mind. For me, wins would not be hollow. Why change something that is good? Good question. Overall he has few reasons. There are two I can think of. One is if he is bored almost, and wants a new challenge. The other, is to cement his legacy. Everyone acknowledges Flash as the greatest ever. However, for some it's yea Flash is better than everyone else, but mostly because he plays terran. If he switched and dominated or became the best with another race he would put to death Tesagi, simultaneously silencing any and all doubt that he was the greatest because of his own abilities. At least to me, if I was highly motivated by my legacy, that would be a significant incentive.
There will always be the same thought going around. If Flash was here, none of these players would've won ASL championships. He would've won them all. That cloud will always hang above the players, just like when Last beat Flash 3-0 in ASL1, where the common thought was that Flash just came back (he came several months back at least I think), and that Last only won due to that.
Flash is the final boss in BW at this point. He's already cemented his legacy as the greatest. No reason to go a step further and try to make it with another race when there is a chance that will tarnish his legacy, and for what? He's already recognized by everyone as the best. If Flash loses with Protoss or Zerg, it'll just make the tesagi stuff even stronger. I can see comments like "he only won because of Terran" instead of "he lost because he needs more experience" etc...
That's you though lol. I'm sure Flash heavily identifies with Terran at this point. There's no way that he'll switch to the other races even though he did joke about it several ASLs back. First, likely out of respect for the fans that have followed through thick and thin. Second, Flash is to Terran as Terran is to Flash. Third, I'm sure there's an off-chance that him switching is de-motivational for some players, and these guys are all friends. Remember when Flash said he didn't nuke in game 1 of ASL4 against hero because they are friends?
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Bisu should come back. He was the only person with apm as good as flashes. Janbgi had the matchup sense to play flash and win sometimes, and fantasy as well. Those 3 are the best flash snipers to ever play on other teams. Too bad they’re all retired. Effort and jd are number 4 and 5 and they still play.
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EPT
