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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
 Afreeca Starleague Season 6Casters & HostsStreamsMatchups and MapsResultsRecommended Games+ Show Spoiler [Game 2] + + Show Spoiler [Game 3] + + Show Spoiler [Game 4] + really? + Show Spoiler [Game 5] + you can guess it CSS: FO-nTTaX Banner: Afreeca | ||
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
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oEkY
Germany648 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
thanks as always BLinD-RawR!! OK TEAMLIQUID ! LET'S GET READY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 23 2018 18:18 prosatan wrote: at last !! we have a thread !!!! thanks as always BLinD-RawR!! OK TEAMLIQUID ! LET'S GET READY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do you mean at last, if you were waiting for one, you should have made it yourself | ||
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Wonk
546 Posts
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
On October 23 2018 18:29 BLinD-RawR wrote: What do you mean at last, if you were waiting for one, you should have made it yourself did u read only the first proposition ? | ||
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curutcis
San Marino284 Posts
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Antoonj
Sweden9 Posts
I dread a 3-0 stomping in the same manner as vs Mini... | ||
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curutcis
San Marino284 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
oh sure you're welcome but this isn't my job, do you think I'll let it slide because you thanked me? | ||
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Kaley
64 Posts
On October 23 2018 17:59 TornadoSteve wrote: Yes body! On October 23 2018 18:33 Wonk wrote: my body is ready, i only hope shuttle's is. Flash-like looking dancer & fitting song | ||
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
On October 23 2018 18:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: oh sure you're welcome but this isn't my job, do you think I'll let it slide because you thanked me? yes  | ||
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curutcis
San Marino284 Posts
Or, perhaps a super smart strategy, but it's pretty hard considering Flash's game sense and know how. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
On October 23 2018 18:56 curutcis wrote: I think that Flash can be beaten only if the opponent is super agressive early on and this will prevent Flash to go into that macro mode. Or, perhaps a super smart strategy, but it's pretty hard considering Flash's game sense and know how. Yes , I agree! Early harassment with dropping zealots and reavers , while macro is the key! As we can see from Rain....although Shuttle PvT is weaker compared to Rain | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Last.Midnight
Australia903 Posts
Hate this attitude from a competitor. Like I guess you're saying watching the series is a waste of time and you don't give a shit. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13006 Posts
But Flash gonna stomp 3-0 here I think. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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nastzkoa
34 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1558 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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Kaley
64 Posts
Mark units on a toggle-able overlay Δ Stick a post-it note on a Dragoon that did good, for example, to track it further. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:35 Zera wrote: 6 hts.... 900 gas... | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:34 prosatan wrote: I think Shuttle had his chance , but somehow misplayed his Shuttles and Reavers Kind of like Mini on this same map haha | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:36 Ota Solgryn wrote: Seems only Snow can effectively ues shuttles in heads on PvT. I do not really understand it. It should be highest priority. It was the same with Mini. Also lost the shuttle and two reavers against flash in a blunder. Don't be too hard on them. Reaver-shuttle micro is some of the most unforgiving shit in the game, in every match-up. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:37 reincremate wrote: Don't be too hard on them. Reaver-shuttle micro is some of the most unforgiving shit in the game, in every match-up. Yeah I know. But it seems like big blunders. Not caring enough for them becuase they are not used to it. | ||
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RxMidnight
United States251 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:38 Ota Solgryn wrote: Yeah I know. But it seems like big blunders. Not caring enough for them becuase they are not used to it. Yeah, it might be that they are choking under pressure against Flash and not microing as well. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
flash controlling max supply mech is just a beautiful sight | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
Impossible. | ||
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CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:42 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Hoping for atleast one Shuttle win, although i want to see Flash vs Effort finals Same. Or rather, hoping for close games and not just everyone crumbling under pressure against Flash. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4770 Posts
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curutcis
San Marino284 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:42 Ikirouta wrote: How is any toss supposed to win vs Flash on these maps. Impossible. Watch Rain | ||
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
or Stork | ||
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Kaley
64 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:42 Ikirouta wrote: How is any toss supposed to win vs Flash on these maps. Impossible. If he had directed the reaver shot a little better it would've been game for shuttle imo | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
A Flash vs Rain Bo5 could potentially be amazing, but I think Flash's vastly superior algorithmic knowledge and decision-making could also make Rain look like a complete noob. Rain has a tendency to make bad, impulsive engagements in PvT and PvZ. I think Snow is the only toss who can seriously challenge Flash atm. | ||
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
One of them is an old guy whos rusty as fuck and the other is just a piece of hot garbage. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
these maps are still on the whole protoss favoured | ||
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BlackJack
United States10499 Posts
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Kaley
64 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/VkWnedW.jpg) | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:56 Terra1 wrote: This ain't maphack, lulz. Why do people claim it's maphacks? Flash just damn good. That's all *Rainier Wolfcastle voice* that's the joke | ||
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oEkY
Germany648 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:56 Terra1 wrote: This ain't maphack, lulz. Why do people claim it's maphacks? Flash just damn good. That's all do u know what irony is? | ||
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On October 23 2018 19:56 Terra1 wrote: This ain't maphack, lulz. Why do people claim it's maphacks? Flash just damn good. That's all thank you for enlightening me. All this time I thought Flash was really using maphacks in a LAN tournament. It's crazy that the Afreeca officials haven't caught him yet. he really is god. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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oEkY
Germany648 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10499 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:00 Golgotha wrote: thank you for enlightening me. All this time I thought Flash was really using maphacks in a LAN tournament. It's crazy that the Afreeca officials haven't caught him yet. he really is god. hahahahaha !!!! great answer ! | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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RxMidnight
United States251 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: ASL needs to make more anti flash maps. 4 versions of sparkle and third world | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
it took every inch of his fiber to say this I bet. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:05 M2 wrote: I cant understand why flash's harass made so much damage this game, he just sent 4 vaulters and shuttle ignored them. Looks like he lacked observers after the proxy robo was scouted and shut down. | ||
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Kaley
64 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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elpolloloco31
145 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:05 M2 wrote: I cant understand why flash's harass made so much damage this game, he just sent 4 vaulters and shuttle ignored them. Pylon wall. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1558 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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NeoFlash
21 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
That and the fact that the few dragoons there during the initial harass were impotent due to lack of observers. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:09 NeoFlash wrote: That's why sometimes completely skimping on Cannons is a terrible idea…That pylon wall seemed clever but Flash made it look dumb :D | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:10 Golgotha wrote: We need a Protoss hero to rise. Anyone remember that Bisu guy? Man, I miss him. You mean that dude who got rolled by Flash back in ASL 4? Yeah, that guy was alright. | ||
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:10 Golgotha wrote: We need a Protoss hero to rise. Anyone remember that Bisu guy? Man, I miss him. He lost to Flash in ASL 4 with the score of 3-1. It would have been 3-0 if he went with goliaths at that time instead of mass marines. He should have made factories after scanning the fleet beacon. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
His storms and macro !!! | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:14 Terra1 wrote: He lost to Flash in ASL 4 with the score of 3-1. It would have been 3-0 if he went with goliaths at that time instead of mass marines. He should have made factories after scanning the fleet beacon. Are you Romanian? | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:12 reincremate wrote: You mean that dude who got rolled by Flash back in ASL 4? Yeah, that guy was alright. how dare you disrespect Bisu. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:14 Terra1 wrote: He lost to Flash in ASL 4 with the score of 3-1. It would have been 3-0 if he went with goliaths at that time instead of mass marines. He should have made factories after scanning the fleet beacon. dunno why terrans have some obsession with trying to beat protoss with marines, never seems to work kind of like how zergs always want to beat terran with guardians... like just build lurkers lol | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:16 Motivate wrote: dunno why terrans have some obsession with trying to beat protoss with marines, never seems to work kind of like how zergs always want to beat terran with guardians... like just build lurkers lol But flying crabs look cool... | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:10 Golgotha wrote: We need a Protoss hero to rise. Anyone remember that Bisu guy? Man, I miss him. Nay I don't want another round of island maps and ridiculous tiny ramp, one free tournament win for protoss was enough. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:17 nojok wrote: Nay I don't want another round of island maps and ridiculous tiny ramp, one free tournament win for protoss was enough. I think they'll try to make the new maps more Zerg favoured next season. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
Haven't seen this for a quite long time :D | ||
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
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oEkY
Germany648 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3095 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:20 prosatan wrote: heyyy ! what is with Romanian ? It's an old TL joke. There were some Romanian users back in the day who didn't get sarcasm (probably due to English language ability, so you can't really blame them). Not malicious or anything  | ||
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1558 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:25 prosatan wrote: aaaa ok Yup, it was like Drax the Destroyer in Guardians of the Galaxy. "Nothing would go over my head. I would catch it.“ | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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geod
Vietnam450 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic621 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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RxMidnight
United States251 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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geod
Vietnam450 Posts
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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JohnMatrix
France1357 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:35 Ota Solgryn wrote: I miss Jangbi Preach. SC2 robbed us of Jangbi's bonjwahood! Oh well | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:36 reincremate wrote: Flash makes Terran look like Protoss. So true! | ||
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NeoFlash
21 Posts
Jangbi needs to come back :D | ||
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Starecat
937 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Lol even flash just said: This is my spot. #1 is my rightful place. Badass. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:39 Golgotha wrote: Effort is dead. I don't care if angels come out and hold the mouse for him. No way Flash is losing this finals to effort. This is Flash's revenge for what the mapmakers did last season. Lol even flash just said: This is my spot. #1 is my rightful place. Badass. i think everyone is underestimating effort, including flash. these maps are great for the hyperaggressive zerg style and somewhat poor for terran. plus effort has flash's number as far as history is concerned | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:37 Miragee wrote: Well. At least Shuttle put up a better fight than Mini. Agree, there were couple of moments where it looked like shuttle might do some damage, mini just died | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1558 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:39 Golgotha wrote: Effort is dead. I don't care if angels come out and hold the mouse for him. No way Flash is losing this finals to effort. This is Flash's revenge for what the mapmakers did last season. Lol even flash just said: This is my spot. #1 is my rightful place. Badass. Haha I can't wait! Soon you will discover Starcraft again | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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alypse
2771 Posts
Can't wait  | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:44 Dante08 wrote: Dam Effort vs Flash and Tastosis not casting who's casting? | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:39 Golgotha wrote: Don't blame the map makers. They only did their best to create those maps, the decision to lump them together in the same map pack in clear disregard of any reason or fairness was made higher up.Effort is dead. I don't care if angels come out and hold the mouse for him. No way Flash is losing this finals to effort. This is Flash's revenge for what the mapmakers did last season. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
Rapid and NoRegret | ||
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:39 Motivate wrote: that was almost humorous... mass of unsieged tanks walking into the main and killing everything i think everyone is underestimating effort, including flash. these maps are great for the hyperaggressive zerg style and somewhat poor for terran. plus effort has flash's number as far as history is concerned Jaedong is bonjwa and may be the greatest zerg but the simple fact is that Flash is not afraid of him and has him figured out. Jaedong could play the perfect game but it will be a meh to Flash, who will be waiting for one error to take advantage of and win. Against Flash, Jaedong makes these mistaked often due to history and his eagerness to win against his one true nemesis. Flash has a lot of dirty tricks to unsettle Jaedong to never actually play his game. This is the difference between Jaedong and Effort. While both are hyperagressive and somewhat reckless, Effort is not afraid of Flash and doesn't do stupid suicide shit for the sake of winning at all cost and then failing horribly. Flash in fact has never been confident against Effort. Effort's style is difficult for him to figure out, and, unlike Jaedong, is a stronger late game macro player that can actually overwhelm Flash. Effort wins by a close 3-1! | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On October 23 2018 20:44 Dante08 wrote: Dam Effort vs Flash and Tastosis not casting WHAT THE FUCK???? User was warned for this post | ||
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
But i do think that if Flash lose a map to him, it will be unexpected. :/ | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3095 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
finals will be a series of desperate ling hydra busts that wont work. 3-0/3-1 flash in the finals. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On October 23 2018 23:16 Dazed. wrote: boring match as always. games needs a balance patch, or, at least, flashes retirement. finals will be a series of desperate ling hydra busts that wont work. 3-0/3-1 flash in the finals. This kind of mentality is why Effort is at an advantage, | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
On October 23 2018 23:16 Dazed. wrote: boring match as always. games needs a balance patch, or, at least, flashes retirement. Excuse me, would you care to elaborate a little on that? How this thorough dedication to practice and unparalleled display of skill that we see from Flash time and time again can be displayed as boring? I myself find it awe inspiring, uplifting and remarkable. And I also think that it would be an almost unsurmountable loss for Broodwar if he retires, as you suggest. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
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batsnacks
United States4466 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 24 2018 00:24 Bonyth wrote: or it could be that he reached the level that is impossible for other races to reach Honestly, Flash's credentials are unparalleled. I guess there is concern about legacy cementing, but I think that's about as solid as it gets. It would be pretty fascinating if he tried to switch and get good with another race. I keep secretly hoping this will happen just to see him try. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Wait. So Tastosis isn't casting the ASL finals? I thought they worked for Afreeca, either I don't understand the situation or it's very odd that Afreeca wouldn't want their premier casters for the final of their premier event. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On October 24 2018 01:34 L_Master wrote: Wait. So Tastosis isn't casting the ASL finals? I thought they worked for Afreeca, either I don't understand the situation or it's very odd that Afreeca wouldn't want their premier casters for the final of their premier event. Probably they will be busy at blizzcon | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3095 Posts
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
In everything he does he displays that he is eons away from any other human being touching a keyboard and playing BW. I'm glad that it's Effort in the finals though. I hope he doesn't shy away from his only chance of winning and that is early, all-in attacks. | ||
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flyingrat
43 Posts
On October 24 2018 02:24 asel wrote: I wish that one day after his retirement Flash will publish his memoirs and show us mortals how Broodwar is meant to be played. 1) click the drop down menu 2) select Terran 3) ??? 4) OP User was warned for this post | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On October 24 2018 01:32 L_Master wrote: Flash is amazing, but Starcraft has a long history of Terran dominance, and I think the last few years as we increasingly reach that [theoretically unreachable] point of total knowledge, terran looks increasingly strong. It's not clear where Flash the legend begins and ends relative to Tesagi. It is clear to any rational observer that tesagi exists; just look at the strategical initiative current in tvz. 1-1-1 has basically deconstructed an already strategically very simple race. Throwing lings and hydras at terran is not a tenable solution. Effort vs last should be seen for what it is: Effort played very well hurrah, but we shouldnt lose sight of the very real despair behind how effort is playing. What he did is simply not tenable over the long term for zerg, and it wont be workable against flash. Worse, its not even the start of a blueprint for how to deal with 1-1-1. All ins like this are a very bad sign, especially given zerg hasnt created a new build in general for over a decade, so anyone that expects something new to arrive is kidding themselves.Honestly, Flash's credentials are unparalleled. I guess there is concern about legacy cementing, but I think that's about as solid as it gets. It would be pretty fascinating if he tried to switch and get good with another race. I keep secretly hoping this will happen just to see him try. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
OT: A much better series than Flash vs Mini lol. Shuttle actually tried for the macro games 3 times in a row whereas Mini didn't seem like he wanted to. Props to Shuttle for trying, although it seemed like he had already thrown in the flag even before game 1 started. He had the eco advantage (or seemed to) in game 3, but he went heavy zealots. Guessing he didn't want to engage due to the high vulture count, but then he tries to attack the third of Flash, gets his army cornered, wiped out, then proceeds to lose the game anti-climatically. Game 2 had that great drop play from Flash, and great scout early, but Shuttle never bothered to go further than 3 bases. His 4 in the corner got blocked, and I guess he didn't want to risk the base at 12 but cmon man, either establish that corner base, or take the base at 12 and work hard on trying to defend both. It felt like he just rolled over and died in each game, despite putting up a great fight from the macro game perspective. Must've been rough to see all those probes die though in game 2, heart breaking. Tanks just walking into his expansion in game 3 was rough too. Funny part is that Flash had no arbiter defense in his main. A single recall would've wrecked his main, and forced him to commit to a retreat at which point Shuttle would've been able to bust that third imo. Of course, there was always the possibility of Flash scouting the arbiters or that he'll still attack Shuttle with a nice army split to save the main. Would've liked to see arbiters used in these games, but they were late in the last game? Well, results as expected GG. Flash vs EffOrt should be interesting. Flash to win 3-0 (or 3-1 at best). | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
Please no balance whining The fact that balance discussion is considered synonymous with whining is why this community has such a cult like atmosphere regarding broodwar. in this thread and let's focus on the games today. If we cant discuss balance how are we supposed to discuss these games meaningfully?Tanks go peww! Bang bang! | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
I'm pretty sure you can discuss the games, and what you think Flash or Shuttle did great or bad that contributed to the final result. What you believe is the best strategy on the maps, or how you believe the matchup will change as time goes on. Who you believe can beat Flash, or how Protoss can approach the matchup in general. There's a lot of stuff that can be discussed, however, going "it is clear to any rational observer that tesagi exists" is not balance discussion, it's balance whining at its finest. I'm not exactly sure how you're trying to justify this, cmon. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
Except for the highest possible level, of course :D | ||
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ppp87
Laos250 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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Artas1984
Lithuania119 Posts
Speaking about broadcast, it's an incredible disappointment, that Tastetossis will not cast the finals... We will have mr. Rapid and mr. Soya casting. I would be fine with Rapid solo casting, as he made tremendous progress since the early days as a BroodWar commentator, but that Soya guy is soooo boring - every word that comes from his mouth is about him being very good in Starcraft 2... Flash annihilating Mini and Shuttle were the most disappointing battles i've seen this season. I am not sure should i be shocked at just how poorly Mini and Shuttle prepared or that Flash just reached ultra instinct Gosu level - a level beyond what he was in ASL5. Somebody please post a working link to todays match! | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On October 24 2018 02:45 oxKnu wrote: After Flash wins this ASL if he doesn't switch races and competes that way I will lose respect for him. In everything he does he displays that he is eons away from any other human being touching a keyboard and playing BW. I'm glad that it's Effort in the finals though. I hope he doesn't shy away from his only chance of winning and that is early, all-in attacks. well thats just stupid | ||
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Dantak
Czech Republic648 Posts
On October 24 2018 03:52 Artas1984 wrote: Well now once again, the afreeca video in youtube got deleted due to audio copyright infringements!!! I advise you to watch the finals live, or you might only find the finals uploaded elsewhere in Korean language! Speaking about broadcast, it's an incredible disappointment, that Tastetossis will not cast the finals... We will have mr. Rapid and mr. Soya casting. I would be fine with Rapid solo casting, as he made tremendous progress since the early days as a BroodWar commentator, but that Soya guy is soooo boring - every word that comes from his mouth is about him being very good in Starcraft 2... Flash annihilating Mini and Shuttle were the most disappointing battles i've seen this season. I am not sure should i be shocked at just how poorly Mini and Shuttle prepared or that Flash just reached ultra instinct Gosu level - a level beyond what he was in ASL5. Somebody please post a working link to todays match! Or just subscribe to this guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGIx6XUmoVMf01PVrOjVbRA | ||
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Rojam
Germany234 Posts
On October 24 2018 03:58 Dantak wrote: Or just subscribe to this guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGIx6XUmoVMf01PVrOjVbRA ASL uploads the english casted VOD's here: http://afreecatv.com/aslenglish At least for me the VOD works fine but I don't know if it is the case for other regions. Not having Tastosis for the finals is just very sad... | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On October 24 2018 02:47 Shady Sands wrote: Savior race switched to Terran at one point, didn't end well. No need for Flash to do the same Flash will be fine. Competing for championships right away. He is already one of the best Protosses in the world. | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On October 24 2018 04:36 sparklyresidue wrote: Flash & effort ... Bring out the plane Shush...I still have nightmares about that….and I am a CJ and EffOrt fan all the way but that was supposed to be Flash's tournament to end the crying jaedong fans at the time xD | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
I don't think Flash will underestimate Effort this time. He will prepare like mad, checking every single possibility because he needs the revenge for that OSL final. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
He sat back with his carriers waiting for the worst possible moment to engage, no kiting from the cliff at all In the CB game he also engaged at the worst moment, and didn't defend his 3rd when that was his only chance of surviving, just poor strategical thinking overall | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On October 24 2018 00:59 LG)Sabbath wrote: Honestly these games weren't even fun to watch, Shuttle just got dismantled, nothing he did ever had any chance of working I disagree, he did some good stuff, but he didn't execute it anywhere near as well as Flash did, but he created openings and with sharper execution and better multi tasking it could've worked. But now, Flash was just better... Really really disappointing that Tastosis isn't casting the finals, Rapid and NoRegret are fine but for the finals it just feels really lackluster to me. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
You think Jaedong or anybody else wants Flash to offrace just for the sake of winning? They are competitors; the entire appeal is to attempt to best Flash at the height of his powers. If he wins another title, so be it. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 05:36 IntoTheEmo wrote: Geez it's alright to be disappointed with the games but the amount of Flash hate is ridiculous. The guy has been one of the most hardworking progamers to ever exist in BW - he deserves all the success he has gotten. Not to mention, for how good he is, he is also an incredibly humble person. How can you not at least respect him for that. You think Jaedong or anybody else wants Flash to offrace just for the sake of winning? They are competitors; the entire appeal is to attempt to best Flash at the height of his powers. If he wins another title, so be it. Pretty much. It's silly that some people even want him to switch races, and will lose respect if he doesn't. If Flash switches, then that's the same as him retiring for me because Flash is synonymous with Terran at this point, and he's the only guy who has carried the race really hard in this era (I'm sure someone will try to argue this lol). | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 24 2018 05:51 BigFan wrote: Pretty much. It's silly that some people even want him to switch races, and will lose respect if he doesn't. If Flash switches, then that's the same as him retiring for me because Flash is synonymous with Terran at this point, and he's the only guy who has carried the race really hard in this era (I'm sure someone will try to argue this lol). Losing respect for him is beyond ridiculous in my opinion. But, it would be fascinating to watch him switch. Why? In my opinion FlaSh has basically done everything he can do with terran. Wins, builds, defenses, a complete masterclass. It's beautiful to watch, and it's not something I would grow tired of, but I've seen it. It amazes me each time, but it's not new. Watching the greatest strategic mind in BW history attempt to switch races and be successful with that race would be fascinating and new. Whatever FlaSh does, I'm going to enjoy his games, but it would be more interesting to me to watch him attempt a new challenge at this point. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 06:00 L_Master wrote: Losing respect for him is beyond ridiculous in my opinion. But, it would be fascinating to watch him switch. Why? In my opinion FlaSh has basically done everything he can do with terran. Wins, builds, defenses, a complete masterclass. It's beautiful to watch, and it's not something I would grow tired of, but I've seen it. It amazes me each time, but it's not new. Watching the greatest strategic mind in BW history attempt to switch races and be successful with that race would be fascinating and new. Whatever FlaSh does, I'm going to enjoy his games, but it would be more interesting to me to watch him attempt a new challenge at this point. Maybe so, and sure, I'd like to see what he can cook up but Terran plays a lot differently than Protoss or Zerg. I believe Flash has gone on the record to say that Zerg was a hard race for him. However, that's not the problem. The problem is that if Flash changes races, even if a player wins ASL beating Protoss or Zerg Flash, the accomplish imo would feel void. Snow beat Flash last ASL, and people went wild. Flash losing to a Zerg or Protoss at his peak is something that many people want to see, and I'm sure even he is starting to wonder when someone will come along, and really challenge him, the way few have so far. Regardless, this is all up to Flash. I doubt he'll switch purely for the fans, and because why change something that's extremely good, and beneficial for you? He already off-races on stream sometimes (I believe he's beaten other pros with his protoss, dunno about Zerg) so he already has an idea of how the races play out etc... I would rather he retired than switched races at this point. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3095 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 24 2018 02:52 Dazed. wrote: Flash is amazing, but Starcraft has a long history of Terran dominance, and I think the last few years as we increasingly reach that [theoretically unreachable] point of total knowledge, terran looks increasingly strong. It's not clear where Flash the legend begins and ends relative to Tesagi. It is clear to any rational observer that tesagi exists; just look at the strategical initiative current in tvz. 1-1-1 has basically deconstructed an already strategically very simple race. Throwing lings and hydras at terran is not a tenable solution. Effort vs last should be seen for what it is: Effort played very well hurrah, but we shouldnt lose sight of the very real despair behind how effort is playing. What he did is simply not tenable over the long term for zerg, and it wont be workable against flash. Worse, its not even the start of a blueprint for how to deal with 1-1-1. All ins like this are a very bad sign, especially given zerg hasnt created a new build in general for over a decade, so anyone that expects something new to arrive is kidding themselves. Eh, it's pretty clear where it begins. At a level of understanding "sub FlaSh" Tesagi is basically irrelevant. 2k MMR terran don't dominate zerg. Neither do 3k MMR terrans. Afaik, all terrans, sub FlaSh, still struggle with PvT. 1-1-1 is concerning. But, again, from where did that basically come? Flash. Whose to say the issue here isn't that there just haven't been good enough zerg minds to come up with answers to terran's tactics. It's possible we are out of build ideas, but it's also possible that there just hasn't been a creative and strategically skilled enough zerg to make this open. In favor of that argument, I really doubt there would even be a 1-1-1, or maybe even a solid mech switch, without FlaSh figuring out how these things work and other terrans then learning by example. I absolutely agree with with what you're saying about EffOrt and Jaedong and other's play versus terran. They really are going aggressive all ins against terran right now. I'm not sure I agree completely that it's not a tenable solution though. It may be that 1-1-1's critical weakness is defense, and that zergs tech switching and early game unpredictability make 1-1-1 too unstable to be used long term. FYI: I'm not convinced of that. But it's not a possibility that can be ignored. Drawing on history, we could have, and did say, the same thing about 12 nex in it's origins. Eventually, 12 nex lost the majority of it's luster as terran realized and perfected a bunker rush for killing it. If the allins against 1-1-1 begin having further reduced win rates as time goes on...that would be a major concerns for zergs. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 06:09 NoS-Craig wrote: I do wonder how the Terran race would look pro scene wise without Flash. Other than Last it would be utterly fucked. Well, we've had Mind, sSak and Last win some tourneys, but otherwise, the only consistent Terran in the last year has been been Mind with Ro8 finishes in ASL. No other Terran has gone further than the quarterfinals, aside from Last in ASL1 and Sea in ASL2 if I'm not mistaken. Aka, the quarterfinals would be filled with Protoss and Zerg leading to many PvZ, PvP and ZvZ. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
Shuttle started off game 1 playing very well I thought. He wasnt afraid of going into a macro game against flash by taking a quick third, knowing the "flash goliath build" would pose no threat of a push. But then he takes a gamble with the reaver and ends up losing it. Still he came very close to breaking Flash after he took out his forces trying to get back home. After flash held that it was an uphill battle from there. Game 2 and 3 is a little hazy for me, but shuttle just seemed to get progressively underwhelming as the series progressed. Lackluster defense of vultures in game2, which protoss has gotten so good at defending. And no round of reinforcements in game2 final battle. In game 3, tastosis praised him for being patient and not engaging Flash's army haphazardly. But then he proceeds to attack Flash's 3rd which was walled by depots while Flash's army was right there. And then I dont know what happened to his HTs, which were supposedly in the shuttles. Meanwhile, Flash was great, I cant even enumerate all the correct decisions he made throughout that series. It was apparent to me that Shuttle came in here today having practiced very well, knowing how to take advantage of Flash's builds and tendencies. And I think that was seen most prominently in the first half of game 1. A better protoss could have very well beaten Flash with those builds. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 24 2018 06:08 BigFan wrote: Maybe so, and sure, I'd like to see what he can cook up but Terran plays a lot differently than Protoss or Zerg. I believe Flash has gone on the record to say that Zerg was a hard race for him. However, that's not the problem. The problem is that if Flash changes races, even if a player wins ASL beating Protoss or Zerg Flash, the accomplish imo would feel void. Snow beat Flash last ASL, and people went wild. Flash losing to a Zerg or Protoss at his peak is something that many people want to see, and I'm sure even he is starting to wonder when someone will come along, and really challenge him, the way few have so far. Regardless, this is all up to Flash. I doubt he'll switch purely for the fans, and because why change something that's extremely good, and beneficial for you? He already off-races on stream sometimes (I believe he's beaten other pros with his protoss, dunno about Zerg) so he already has an idea of how the races play out etc... I would rather he retired than switched races at this point. At some point Flash will retire. After he retires, will wins feel void without him? I don't think so. People will speculate at first and then that will fade. Flash switching is really a similar case in my mind. For me, wins would not be hollow. Why change something that is good? Good question. Overall he has few reasons. There are two I can think of. One is if he is bored almost, and wants a new challenge. The other, is to cement his legacy. Everyone acknowledges Flash as the greatest ever. However, for some it's yea Flash is better than everyone else, but mostly because he plays terran. If he switched and dominated or became the best with another race he would put to death Tesagi, simultaneously silencing any and all doubt that he was the greatest because of his own abilities. At least to me, if I was highly motivated by my legacy, that would be a significant incentive. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
maybe follows a kind of circular relationship. Flash is the big target and people play ZvT and PvT (I doubt any Terran can really challenge him in TvT and it does not pertain to the point) like mad, so other Terrans suffer even more. I'm haven't been home last week, so I didn't catch any of the games, but smart and composed and mechanically superb as Last is, he likes to stick to one style a lot. He has the mechanics and tactical acumen to execute 1-1-1 and 1-1-2 properly, but does he mix it up? I loved his Ro24 game with Soulkey where he opened 2-1-1 with valks and make Soulkey look hopeless. He opened 1-1-2 most of the games in their series in the KSL (with a 14 cc IIRC) and he did a factory opening in 3 of 4 games in the KSL finals, correct me if I'm wrong. I imagine Flash doing a damn 8 rax into 1-1-1 and a 14cc and a +1 5rax with rax-cc-rax-aca-ebay and offensive ebays and anything in between. He's that scary in a boX because of this. And I don't think he'll underestimate Effort. Remember someone translated his analysis on the games with JD? He was impressed that Effort spotted the vulture that kept killing drones. Impressed. No, I don't think he underestimates anyone, least of all Effort. Remember his finals vs Shine in asl3? He diligently scouted with as many SCVs as needed to spot for cheese. He respects both his opponent and the stage he's on. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
I highly doubt Flash underestimates EffOrt, probably the reverse. Flash also highly respects Jaedong, and this was part of the reason he lost their Neo Transistor game. He overthought things, and lost to that zergling into muta attack. If anything, this is the only way EffOrt can win imo. Having said that, if people think EffOrt will do some reverse sweep, or win like those old OSL finals, they are mistaken. EffOrt is tricky, and could pick off a game, but I expect Flash to scan, scout, and do everything in his power to figure out what EffOrt is doing. Flash losing in the finals is a huge upset imo, can't be overstated. He likely will also learn from Last's mistakes, and avoid games like that second game on Circuit Breaker through diligent scouting etc... On October 24 2018 06:38 L_Master wrote: At some point Flash will retire. After he retires, will wins feel void without him? I don't think so. People will speculate at first and then that will fade. Flash switching is really a similar case in my mind. For me, wins would not be hollow. Why change something that is good? Good question. Overall he has few reasons. There are two I can think of. One is if he is bored almost, and wants a new challenge. The other, is to cement his legacy. Everyone acknowledges Flash as the greatest ever. However, for some it's yea Flash is better than everyone else, but mostly because he plays terran. If he switched and dominated or became the best with another race he would put to death Tesagi, simultaneously silencing any and all doubt that he was the greatest because of his own abilities. At least to me, if I was highly motivated by my legacy, that would be a significant incentive. There will always be the same thought going around. If Flash was here, none of these players would've won ASL championships. He would've won them all. That cloud will always hang above the players, just like when Last beat Flash 3-0 in ASL1, where the common thought was that Flash just came back (he came several months back at least I think), and that Last only won due to that. Flash is the final boss in BW at this point. He's already cemented his legacy as the greatest. No reason to go a step further and try to make it with another race when there is a chance that will tarnish his legacy, and for what? He's already recognized by everyone as the best. If Flash loses with Protoss or Zerg, it'll just make the tesagi stuff even stronger. I can see comments like "he only won because of Terran" instead of "he lost because he needs more experience" etc... That's you though lol. I'm sure Flash heavily identifies with Terran at this point. There's no way that he'll switch to the other races even though he did joke about it several ASLs back. First, likely out of respect for the fans that have followed through thick and thin. Second, Flash is to Terran as Terran is to Flash. Third, I'm sure there's an off-chance that him switching is de-motivational for some players, and these guys are all friends. Remember when Flash said he didn't nuke in game 1 of ASL4 against hero because they are friends? | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
We should just enjoy seeing him play. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On October 24 2018 07:38 Yanokabo wrote: Bisu should come back. He was the only person with apm as good as flashes. Janbgi had the matchup sense to play flash and win sometimes, and fantasy as well. Those 3 are the best flash snipers to ever play on other teams. Too bad they’re all retired. Effort and jd are number 4 and 5 and they still play. Bisu is in the army isnt he? And I was so sad when Fantasy came back to SC2 instead of BW. And I just rewatched the last Kespa era game where Jangbi beat Fantasy, man, I want Jangbi back so much. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Fantasy will probably eventually come back, though whether he comes back when Flash has left is another question. I don't believe that he's living up to his potential in that game, but I don't follow it closely either. Jangbi quit for good. He asked that fans don't remind him of his past, since it's quite likely that he is trying to move on. Sad, but we should respect his wishes, aka, people need to eventually move on imo unless he decides to come back and play seriously. Last time he came back, things didn't go as anticipated. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On October 24 2018 07:42 StarscreamG1 wrote: I don't care about mechanics. The most amazing thing about FlaSh is that he understands the game at another level. The decisions making we're seeing are from an alien. We should just enjoy seeing him play. You should care about mechanics. Stork for example has the same vast amount of knowledge yet he routinely fails because of lackluster mechanics for the highest pro level. --- It was definitely tongue-in-cheek for me to say that I would lose respect for Flash if he didn't switch to Protoss after this ASL. However there's a real advantage to doing that. I've seen him this year get literally bored out of his mind playing games vs. Larva and Best, players that would at least give him a good run not too long ago. His level is just untouchable at this point. Plus imagine that competitive mind trying to REALLY figure out a new race. That would be incredible to watch from tournament to tournament. (his PvT would probably be amazing right away with PvZ being the hardest matchup for him). | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On October 24 2018 08:01 BigFan wrote: You assume that that competitive mind would actually push that hard to figure out the other races. You also assume that he'll find something that the other players haven't already. There's no guarantee that Flash will be able to push either of the two races farther than they already are. Speculation is fun of course, who knows. And if that were to be true, that would be riveting to witness as well and another testament to how great BW is (imo). As for your first point, I wouldn't underestimate a real competitor like Flash. These types of guys are built to win and/or figure out the last fray of possibility in doing that. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
I hope we can see something emerge that gives BW as an E-sport a way to continue... | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
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Athinira
Denmark33 Posts
On October 24 2018 07:59 oxKnu wrote: It was definitely tongue-in-cheek for me to say that I would lose respect for Flash if he didn't switch to Protoss after this ASL. However there's a real advantage to doing that. I've seen him this year get literally bored out of his mind playing games vs. Larva and Best, players that would at least give him a good run not too long ago. His level is just untouchable at this point. Plus imagine that competitive mind trying to REALLY figure out a new race. That would be incredible to watch from tournament to tournament. (his PvT would probably be amazing right away with PvZ being the hardest matchup for him). The problem is that Flash is getting old. There's a reason E-sports players generally emerge in their prime when they're teens to early adults. Yes, Flash is still amazing, but unfortunately, age really does slow your ability to learn, and it starts already in your mid-twenties - same reason that children are much better at learning languages than adults are. Learning a new race all over is a tense mental challenge. You'll have to redevelop all yours habits and thought processes from the bottom. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the clock is definitely ticking. | ||
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Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
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sharkeyanti
United States1273 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
I miss the big classic PvT of game 3 with max armies dancing about. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
We should give them a chance. I don’t see any of you guys flying to Korea yourselfs to cast. At least we can enjoy their enthusiasm for the game. Also, rapid and noregret should know that everyone posting that they hated their stream at least watched it for awhile. At least they are getting views. I thank them for casting. I prefer a cast by them than a korean cast. Noregret though I seriously pray for him he reads up on the strategies of ZvT/TvZ. It would do a lot of good if he knew something however small. Best of luck. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
The broodwar watching demographic should be mostly late 20s and early 30s right? | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
Rapid and Noregret please read that to learn about new ZvT meta for countering 1-1-1 build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/530266-flashs-1-1-1-variation And that to learn what the 1-1-1 build Terran uses is. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
In order to take advantage of the window [in the 1-1-1 build] at which Terran is vulnerable without the risk inherent in 2-hatch builds [i.e. the risk for Zerg to get out-defended and out-macroed], hero brought back the so-called 2.5-hatch or 18-hatch build, a late 3-hatch build in which the mutalisks pop at the same time as 2-hatch muta builds. In the past, Flash once explained why the 18-hatch mutalisk opening is a good response to the 1-1-1. Due to the fast mutalisk timing, the wraith cannot scout what the Zerg is doing because it must come home to defend the two turrets near the barracks. This means that now the Terran has to play blind as to what Zerg is making after the first few mutalisks. Lings? Mutalisks? Hydras? Terran cannot scan because the 1-1-1 build does not allow the Terran to have scans at that timing. The wraith normally covers that weakness in the 1-1-1 but the 18-hatch build totally destroys the wraith's scouting abilities by forcing it to come home to defend. A wraith cannot be in two places at the same time after all. The best that Terran can do is to sacrifice some vultures to see what the Zerg is making. 9 drone scout 12 hatchery at natural 11 pool 13 extractor Lair @100 gas Two zerglings 18 third hatchery 17 overlord, drone Unfortunately, this was still not a good enough solution for the Zerg since this build is weak against the +1 5 rax build, which is another one of Flash’s favorite builds." That explains the new 2.5 hatch build that is good against 1-1-1 | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
On October 24 2018 08:01 BigFan wrote: You assume that that competitive mind would actually push that hard to figure out the other races. You also assume that he'll find something that the other players haven't already. There's no guarantee that Flash will be able to push either of the two races farther than they already are. Speculation is fun of course, who knows. The positive side of me clings onto the slither of hope that there is still more strategic advantages to be extracted from zerg and protoss sides. And yearn for a dominant protoss/zerg tournament winner. I believe are just somethings that mapmakers will never be able to balance out. | ||
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
On October 24 2018 01:34 L_Master wrote: Wait. So Tastosis isn't casting the ASL finals? I thought they worked for Afreeca, either I don't understand the situation or it's very odd that Afreeca wouldn't want their premier casters for the final of their premier event. It's not that. Starting on 28, they'll be casting the Blizzcon elimination matches for SC2, Ro16. I heard that one of them is going to New Zealand for some reason before that. Afreeca should have at least delayed it for 1 week so that Tastosis can come back and cast it. Would have been nice though if they did. But let's just have faith with Rapid and NoRegret. Rapid's fine, he's improving in his knowledge about Brood War. It's NoRegret I'm concerned about. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 12:31 Malongo wrote: Lets be honest here, Shuttle lost mentally way before the series even started. My thoughts too. He had a chance in game 1, and I felt like he could've done better in games 2 and 3 as well. On October 24 2018 12:16 Sabu113 wrote: Gah. Shuttle just wasnt good enough. I think there are holes for a good PvTer to not make Flash look as ridiculous. That said obviously Flash is incredible. Just notice the timem between an expo and Flash catching it. I miss the big classic PvT of game 3 with max armies dancing about. Agree. I also miss them too. On October 24 2018 12:39 chongu wrote: The positive side of me clings onto the slither of hope that there is still more strategic advantages to be extracted from zerg and protoss sides. And yearn for a dominant protoss/zerg tournament winner. I believe are just somethings that mapmakers will never be able to balance out. there's always a possibility. I'm just saying that some assume that Flash will switch, and the other races will magically become the best race. It's never that simple. Keep in mind that Flash also practices really hard, and thinks deeply about the game. I think hero was the closest to him considering he was the one who thought of bringing back that 2.5 hatch build. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 24 2018 12:57 Terra1 wrote: It's not that. Starting on 28, they'll be casting the Blizzcon elimination matches for SC2, Ro16. I heard that one of them is going to New Zealand for some reason before that. Afreeca should have at least delayed it for 1 week so that Tastosis can come back and cast it. Would have been nice though if they did. But let's just have faith with Rapid and NoRegret. Rapid's fine, he's improving in his knowledge about Brood War. It's NoRegret I'm concerned about. They are good casters. Rapid especially. He could still know more about BW, but it's not a problem especially if sticks more to play by play. NoRegret I've only heard once, and while his voice and style wasn't a problem...he was actively making a point to do analysis and had zero idea what he was talking about. I've NoRegret stuck to play by play, with some very light analysis and mostly play by play from Rapid I think the cast would be quite good. | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On October 24 2018 07:57 BigFan wrote: Bisu is in the army for another year most likely, left in December of last year. Fantasy will probably eventually come back, though whether he comes back when Flash has left is another question. I don't believe that he's living up to his potential in that game, but I don't follow it closely either. Jangbi quit for good. He asked that fans don't remind him of his past, since it's quite likely that he is trying to move on. Sad, but we should respect his wishes, aka, people need to eventually move on imo unless he decides to come back and play seriously. Last time he came back, things didn't go as anticipated. But I miss jangbi too.... He made PvT looked so imba. I rmbr watching his carriers just won't die raping fantasy's main with all the Goliaths struggling to reach the carriers in fantasy's own base, so frustrating to watch as a Terran player.... Yet his storms to break Terran static line gives orgasms... I rmbr when he broke Flash in game 2 OSL, oh god.... Nevertheless, looking forward to Flash vs Effort :D | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On October 24 2018 14:43 kidcrash wrote: I may get some hate for saying this but I think terran mech upgrades need nerfed. Either higher cost or at the very least longer research time. I remember seeing a thread where kespa era win rates were logged and it was like zvp 53% tvz 52 maybe 53% and pvt was about 50.8% Protoss favored. I think over 1000 games were tallied. I understand the meta game has shifted since then but I think unfortunately things have only gotten worse. Upgraded mechanic is more of an anti carrier build. It's so passive until 12 min unless the p messes up the early game (like trading a reaver poorly), and Arbs plus HTs plus expanding away from the Terran can blunt much of its power. And because it is so passive, p generally has plenty of time to optimize around that style of lategame if he spots 2x armory coming. Basically the only p build that is hard countered by fast upg is fast carrier, and we can have a long debate about what is more imba in that case lool | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
On October 24 2018 15:04 Shady Sands wrote: Upgraded mechanic is more of an anti carrier build. It's so passive until 12 min unless the p messes up the early game (like trading a reaver poorly), and Arbs plus HTs plus expanding away from the Terran can blunt much of its power. And because it is so passive, p generally has plenty of time to optimize around that style of lategame if he spots 2x armory coming. Basically the only p build that is hard countered by fast upg is fast carrier, and we can have a long debate about what is more imba in that case lool I don't agree that T upgrades are only effective against carrier builds. 2-1 push can be devestating against a P ground army if executed correctly. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1558 Posts
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
Now granted, armor aplies to splash damage, so it would reduce damage from tank from about 20 to 17, but still it costs a lot. | ||
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote: Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. I think more importantly Protoss by design just doesn't get nearly as much out of defensive upgrades as Terran does. Zealots (hit twice) and Carriers (small hits) are particularly sensitive to enemy defensive upgrades, while Dragoons are just sensitive enough to require extra shots when attacking cheap factory units. Meanwhile, even if a protoss gets +6 defensive upgrades on either carriers or gateway units it's not going to make a huge difference against the massive weapon upgrade efficacy of tanks and goliaths. Still for what it's worth, marines by design get totally nullified by Protoss defensive upgrades. | ||
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Moridin
Bulgaria164 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On October 24 2018 13:05 BigFan wrote: My thoughts too. He had a chance in game 1, and I felt like he could've done better in games 2 and 3 as well. Agree. I also miss them too. there's always a possibility. I'm just saying that some assume that Flash will switch, and the other races will magically become the best race. It's never that simple. Keep in mind that Flash also practices really hard, and thinks deeply about the game. I think hero was the closest to him considering he was the one who thought of bringing back that 2.5 hatch build. One of the reasons I see Shuttle so overwhelmed by this series was the map pool. Circuit Breakers is terran favored and Autobahn seems to me like a protoss graveyard. I have no idea about sylphid and transistor thou. Maybe someone with a better understanding could provide some insight about that. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
On October 24 2018 18:33 Malongo wrote: One of the reasons I see Shuttle so overwhelmed by this series was the map pool. Circuit Breakers is terran favored and Autobahn seems to me like a protoss graveyard. I have no idea about sylphid and transistor thou. Maybe someone with a better understanding could provide some insight about that. I will just add that shuttle banned sylphid :-) . Transistor though is Protoss favored for what I know | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
Taateosis isn't perfect--Tasteless just repeats himself over and over and is carried by Artists in many ways. But the difference is Tasteless is genuinely chsrming and Tasteless/Artosis know how to instantly cut off off topic discussion in order to pontificate on the game. I honestly don't care about watching the Finals more as a result. More of a chore for me. I will probably just look at the results after because FvX is autowin at this point. | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote: Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote: I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race. This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool. this is for real? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote: I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race. This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool. I believe that in principle, that discussions over non-player factors, whether it is the balance of the match-ups, maps, or flaws in tournament format, should take place independently from the players that made people notice these issues. Every player participated in this tournament in full agreement to the maps, the tournament format, and the state of the game itself. These are the rules, and the way it plays out may not be in alignment with how people want the way things to be, but that is the very nature of competition. It is not a perfectly scripted narrative with sexy storylines that satisfies all audiences just right, and there always will be people bitching about one thing or the other (I don't think there ever has been a time where Shine made a deep run in a tournament where somebody didn't bitch about how somebody else should have made it in his place, for example). When it comes to Flash, racial balance is always the hot topic. It was the same with iloveoov, it was the same with NaDa before him, this isn't anything new, and mentioning stuff like ladder statistics is a very weak way of going about disputing the Taesagi claims (it is a known fact that the protoss race is broken as fuck in lower tier play, while the balance shift changes against the protoss race once we hit the very elite tier, while it changes again in favour of the protoss race if players use team melee settings to play co-operatively). Once people start harassing the players, and questioning the value of their competitive results due to their personal frustrations, that is when it starts to become a problem. However, Flash is no saint in this regard, since he was never the one to back-up about berating the competitive results of other players if he personally felt unfairly treated with certain situations (whether it was dismissing JangBi's results because he had to split his practice time with Starcraft 2, when the fact of the matter is that JangBi was placed in exactly the same situation, at the time had superior results in both Brood War and Starcraft 2 compared to Flash, or whether it was calling the protoss race as Saegi in official interviews during his time as a Starcraft 2 professional). I don't think Flash deserves the backlash of the fans just because he performs too well, but it is a human trait to blame uncontrollable factors to displace blame on self, as Flash has shown time and time again. I don't think it'll change any time soon for the fans either. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote: Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Jaedong is the most popular player in the scene as of today, and has the most annoying fandom ever as a result. While the dude himself is the epitome of good sportsmanly conduct, the same cannot be said for his fanbase, and Last was on the receiving end of some really crappy fan rage ever since his one sided victory against Jaedong, who probably made his last ever push for a major trophy. Last practiced really hard, despite suffering from severe wrist pains, and felt like everybody wanted him to lose without even appreciating the effort he put in to breakdown the game into the finest details. He cried on stream after his defeat versus EffOrt, and said he doesn't want to compete anymore if such harassments continue. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On October 24 2018 23:51 BLinD-RawR wrote: I've known how disgusting the entire stream viewing community of afreeca(and by extension ygosu forums) has been for some time now, its just heart breaking to hear these kinds of things even now. Some of the most knowledgeable and financially giving people I've seen are also from that community. It is easy to judge from afar, but internet rage and blame scales with community size and moderation, not necessarily the character of the people involved. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 23:42 Letmelose wrote: Jaedong is the most popular player in the scene as of today, and has the most annoying fandom ever as a result. While the dude himself is the epitome of good sportsmanly conduct, the same cannot be said for his fanbase, and Last was on the receiving end of some really crappy fan rage ever since his one sided victory against Jaedong, who probably made his last ever push for a major trophy. Last practiced really hard, despite suffering from severe wrist pains, and felt like everybody wanted him to lose without even appreciating the effort he put in to breakdown the game into the finest details. He cried on stream after his defeat versus EffOrt, and said he doesn't want to compete anymore if such harassments continue. I figured that he'd get some rage, but man it must be that bad if he also said he doesn't want to continue due to such harassment. I know Flash said something similar after he beat Jaedong in ASL2, but he's still around. Perhaps he can give Last some tips to dealing with these terrible people. Sad really. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On October 24 2018 23:42 Letmelose wrote: Jaedong is the most popular player in the scene as of today, and has the most annoying fandom ever as a result. While the dude himself is the epitome of good sportsmanly conduct, the same cannot be said for his fanbase, and Last was on the receiving end of some really crappy fan rage ever since his one sided victory against Jaedong, who probably made his last ever push for a major trophy. Last practiced really hard, despite suffering from severe wrist pains, and felt like everybody wanted him to lose without even appreciating the effort he put in to breakdown the game into the finest details. He cried on stream after his defeat versus EffOrt, and said he doesn't want to compete anymore if such harassments continue. It's also Last's fault. I know these people are pretty young and not as accustomed to being oblivious to online bullying/hatred/trolling but at some point you have to understand that fanatics that are given a medium to expose their feelings will create such scenarios. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 25 2018 00:55 oxKnu wrote: It's also Last's fault. I know these people are pretty young and not as accustomed to being oblivious to online bullying/hatred/trolling but at some point you have to understand that fanatics that are given a medium to expose their feelings will create such scenarios. What? Please don't place blame on the victim... | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
And I can't imagine why Last gets even a modicum of hate for being an honest progamer. There are more than enough odd players worthy of ire or controversy outside of him | ||
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TheBrochette
67 Posts
Kinda Glad to see effort vs flash for the final because i dont expect any protoss to be able to béat flash . To finish m'y tought i dont think flash would change race .. we dont know how long the bw hype Will last on kr ans hé should take the maximum of Money hé can from tourneys. Him risking to lose by switching race is not Worth. Hé is not multi millionaire. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 25 2018 02:32 Yanokabo wrote: True answer to all these complaints is, no new players are joining brood war to develop race such as Terran. Sc2 was a god awful game and made no attempts to fix these mathematical upgrade inconsistencies, instead opting to replace all distinct and unique units with massive blob armies. Protoss upgrades are the worst of all 3 races. Yes some dev should have maybe seen this in 1998. Or the game is balanced well enough overall and people need to learn to play better. Shuttle and Mini's series vs Flash are some of the worst to draw conclusions from. This isn't a symmetric game, and the upgrades are fine overall. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 25 2018 03:08 Mirabel_ wrote: I don't think anyone is playing Zerg or Protoss well enough to draw conclusions about racial balance in an objective sense, at least not while Flash's games are getting referenced. And I can't imagine why Last gets even a modicum of hate for being an honest progamer. There are more than enough odd players worthy of ire or controversy outside of him Fanboys can be obnoxious. I mean, just look at the LR for that match even on TL where it's civilized. Now imagine that in some of the previously mentioned sites. It's the same for fans of sports or other games. Problem is that balance talk completely undermines the hard work of the players involved. | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote: Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-stats Granted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
On October 25 2018 01:13 BigFan wrote: What? Please don't place blame on the victim... No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's. In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock. Having said that, I do find it distasteful and ugly to spew mindless hatred and to try to abuse people in any way. But it is bound to happen to any man who finds success in any field and that man has to learn how to deal properly with such situations. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote: The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-stats Granted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op.. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On October 25 2018 05:37 JoinTheRain wrote: No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's. In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock. Having said that, I do find it distasteful and ugly to spew mindless hatred and to try to abuse people in any way. But it is bound to happen to any man who finds success in any field and that man has to learn how to deal properly with such situations. Don’t think you understand situation too well. Last after winning his first trophy received backlash and not compliments. This basically destroys his passion for streaming, gaming, and his career as streamer. He practiced so hard just to have many say it was useless. And his stream resolved around his top level skills and not his personality man. It’s understandable he cried | ||
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3z3ki3l
Germany51 Posts
On October 25 2018 05:37 JoinTheRain wrote: No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's. In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock. Having said that, I do find it distasteful and ugly to spew mindless hatred and to try to abuse people in any way. But it is bound to happen to any man who finds success in any field and that man has to learn how to deal properly with such situations. Hm no i think you are wrong. If what you say is right, then you can always blame the victim for being too "sensible" or for not being able to control his/her emotions in any situation where there is no "real" violence involved. Thats just not how humans behave. On the other hand i think its completely fine to say that its also in his power to deal much better with those situation. You can get less sensible to those kind of things and concentrate more on the positive stuff or reject, like you said, those attacks as something false which you dont have to bother with. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On October 25 2018 05:37 JoinTheRain wrote: No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's. In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock. How can you lack this much compassion. sympathy and mentalization? This is on of the most psychopathic thing I have ever read... | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6581 Posts
in starcraft the player that train the most wins.is about skill practise and mindset,the race doesnt really help you,except if you are protoss that you are already 3 4 ranks ahead of terran or zerg. Flash didnt destroy shuttle cuz terran is imba,is just that shuttle is 2 3 tiers below FlaSh. | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
On October 25 2018 06:10 Shinokuki wrote: So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op.. As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play. | ||
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errol1001
454 Posts
First, please give rapid and noregret a chance. I too wish that tastosis was casting the finals, but life is not so simple that they can do everything for us. They do have room to improve, and I hope that they will put some effort into it for this large stage. Second, It's unfortunate to hear of the harassment/treatment some of the players are receiving. Third. I do not think it will ever be acceptable to have balance changes to this game again. Maps are the answer. They need to start using a map pool that is 'unfavorable' to terran. Not stupid, like last season. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On October 25 2018 08:12 kidcrash wrote: As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play. I actually smiled at the fanboyinsm. Poor genius Flash, there is no way Terran could possibly have an edge at this game. https://starcraft.com/en-gb/leaderboard?toon_id=&aurora_id=105078032&gateway=30&benefactor=0&namespace=classic https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote: I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race. This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool. i would really like to see the streams where they were apologizing. | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
Also there are not, and will never be, any balance changes to brood war. Blizzard would never do that. Ergo discussions about balance changes are a waste. Hopefully Last knows that lots of us actually root for him and want to see him do well. Most people on TL were looking forward to a TvT finals I think, actually. Maybe someone could tell Last that. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On October 25 2018 08:12 kidcrash wrote: As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play. there's a difference from watching bw and PLAYING bw. that is world of difference. can you tell me why 111 has been very successful vs zergs and why they are not used as frequently? (what bo does zerg uses that counters?) what's your ladder as well? I too watched many bw and i knew nothing. by playing and reaching a certain level (2k +) you start to realize waht makes flash special and why you just have to admit he is something special | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On October 25 2018 09:59 Malongo wrote: I actually smiled at the fanboyinsm. Poor genius Flash, there is no way Terran could possibly have an edge at this game. https://starcraft.com/en-gb/leaderboard?toon_id=&aurora_id=105078032&gateway=30&benefactor=0&namespace=classic https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard I'm not fanboying flash. This is legit destroying bw scene. The fact that there are so many trolls going around and saying T OP!!!!. Koreans on Ygosu are uniting against this issue to protect the integrity of bw scene. You also posted a ladder ranking which speaks to your lack of knowledge of korean scene. These ranks are populated by streamers (shinee,light, last) who makes 3-4 accounts. what happens ? 3 guys who can reach S ranks relatively easily and then have 12 of their accounts in top 20. That's how it is. Also terrans are the ones that play the MOST games. Can you post the season 2 ranks? notice how many zergs are there now? yeah.... | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
On October 25 2018 12:24 Shinokuki wrote: there's a difference from watching bw and PLAYING bw. that is world of difference. can you tell me why 111 has been very successful vs zergs and why they are not used as frequently? (what bo does zerg uses that counters?) what's your ladder as well? I too watched many bw and i knew nothing. by playing and reaching a certain level (2k +) you start to realize waht makes flash special and why you just have to admit he is something special Are you really trying to sit here and test my knowledge of starcraft? The only thing that matters is results at the top level and I posted a sample size of ten thousand high profile games. Not bnet ladder. This includes OSL and MSL finals matches. While I agree that bw will probably never receive any patches, to say that terran doesn't have the highest win percentage at the top level is inaccurate information. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Matchup all-time records: - TvZ: 1544-1323 (53.85%) - ZvP: 982-855 (53.46%) - PvT: 1120-1072 (51.09%) These stats don't even matter in this era, because the training environment is totally different. Hero for instance put a ton of time into ASL preparation and got second, and third place in the ASL4 and ASL5. Either way, they don't really say much other than what I mentioned above. The fact that people thought Shuttle who's a family man, and plays BW for fun is supposed to compete with Flash who's still trying his hardest to remain the best in the game? Honestly, it boggles the mind. These recent PvTs vs Flash are terrible to draw any conclusions from, and this doesn't even take maps or other factors into account. Anyways, enough with the balance whining. You guys had your fun with this tesagi talk, please move on at this point. On October 25 2018 12:24 Shinokuki wrote: there's a difference from watching bw and PLAYING bw. that is world of difference. can you tell me why 111 has been very successful vs zergs and why they are not used as frequently? (what bo does zerg uses that counters?) what's your ladder as well? I too watched many bw and i knew nothing. by playing and reaching a certain level (2k +) you start to realize waht makes flash special and why you just have to admit he is something special I tend to agree, there is a huge difference between watching and playing the game. You start to realize that what these guys do isn't easy, even more so for players like Flash who make all the other players, including Terran ones look chobo. Anyone remember Mind vs Flash in ASL4? Flash rolled Mind 3-0, even when Mind held an extra base, and an advantage against him on Crossing Field. Granted, Mind tried to move his tanks, and the AI messed it up, but Flash also was patient, and didn't try to damage him or commit to anything, but a contain then. What about Flash vs Bisu in ASL4 as well? This was hyped up, but Bisu got stomped. The guy had complete map control, lots of bases on FS then decided to have one of the poor engagements ever with terrible stasis. This gave Flash the ability to push out and siege Bisu's expansion to eventually win the game. Let's not even talk about the other games. What about Flash vs Sea in ASL2 finals? Sea took a game because he somehow managed to sneak an expansion on Benzene, but Flash showed he's much superior with all the different types of games on Demian, Circuit Breaker etc.... Flash vs Soulkey in ASL3? Soulkey is playing pretty well, defends his front on Outsider, trying to rush ultras afaik, then Flash manages to evade scourge and drops him right before it happens. Or that Flash vs Last match where Flash 3-0'd last in ASL3, getting revenge for ASL1. He made Last look so terrible, completely helpless on Andromeda for instance. I could go on and on, but it should be clear to anyone who has followed this game that Flash is a special case. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
The feeling of hopelessness people get from watching Flash games is due to the fact that it seems like Flash plays like he uses map hacks. This is possible, partly due to Flash's characteristics as a person, but also because the terran race tends to fare rather well purely in a game of information and decision making. If all parties involved had access to map hacks, the zerg race would probably struggle the most, because zerg players tend to use misinformation to their advantages (because their change of pace due to the larva system is the quickest, whereas other races are more commited to the choices they make), which is why they tend to fare better in best-of-series as opposed to standard environments, because it is easier to play mind games (forcing the opponent to play worse through misinformation, rather than two players playing the immaculate game) with the zerg race than it is for the other races. Protoss benefits heavily from even distribution of information too, but struggles to achieve information parity, but has more game changing RPG-esque units to make up for that. So purely within a game of decision making with minimal surprises, whether it is due to heroic usage of certain units, or a strike unthought of strategically speaking, the terran race probably benefits the most, and in the hands of the best decision maker (both in terms of speed and accuracy) the scene has ever seen, the games Flash succeeds in may seem very unfair. Only a few can keep up in that specific regard even on their best days, with Soulkey on good form probably being one of them (Flash has heavily commended Soulkey's decision making skills within the zerg-versus-terran match-up). However, that happens only if you agree to play to Flash's terms and conditions, with no mind games or strategic curveballs, no playmaking with game changing units, and seek to keep up with Flash in his element, it is playing right into Flash's territory. The terran race isn't without its weakness, and Flash isn't a player without flaws and weaknesses that can be abused to achieve victory. Once that becomes impossible, then we can start to discuss game changes to open up opportunities that were impossible to open up otherwise. Brood War as a game has so much depth, that I think it is ridiculous to pretend that Flash has achieved the maximum skill ceiling of what is humanly possible. Of course with a game that has such variance between the three races, there are going to be realms in which some races are heavily favoured over others. For example, take the zerg-versus-protoss match-up, the zerg race has infinitely better scouting options due to the overlord alone, but the protoss race has the multi-tasking advantage due to its unit make-up and how zergs have a higher multi-tasking demand with how many bases they have to manage, and that was something Bisu abused a lot. Instead of bitching about the information disadvantage, Bisu honed his probe micro-management and movement to a degree where it was next to impossible to deny information from him without upgrading speedlings, and found a way to abuse the innate multi-tasking advantage the protoss race had over the zerg race. I think Brood War is extremely well balanced, and while it is not perfect, following the advice of many people here would probably ruin the game balance in ways unimagined previously, due to the extremely fickle nature of the game that miraculoulsy managed to be balanced well enough to sustain a competitive gaming scene for two decades without much game alterations. I also think it is utter bullshit to ignore certain advantages the terran race has over the other races, or to pretend it is only Flash that makes terran seem this way, but the fact of the matter is that the factor that is the most influential in terms of results, is player skill, and the other factors can be adjusted to a decent enough degree with maps. The answer to competitive Brood War has always been about skill, and the map pool, never about the game itself. There is no opponent you cannot defeat with superior skill as long as the maps are well thought out enough, and that is something the entire scene has been trying over years and years. A sudden change in balance would ruin the game in my opinion. It may improve things for the better, but the chances of it happening are less than one in a million, and I wouldn't trust Blizzard to hit those odds, no matter whose advice they take. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On October 25 2018 12:46 kidcrash wrote: Are you really trying to sit here and test my knowledge of starcraft? The only thing that matters is results at the top level and I posted a sample size of ten thousand high profile games. Not bnet ladder. This includes OSL and MSL finals matches. While I agree that bw will probably never receive any patches, to say that terran doesn't have the highest win percentage at the top level is inaccurate information. You are bringing up prehistoric stats that don’t mean anything today. Meta has changed so much that those stats don’t even matter. Heck there’s so much difference from 2010 and 2016 and onwards. This flat out tells me you haven’t a single clue about bw’s Depth. Just watching bw doesn’t really give you a good read on bw games. Looks like you haven’t really played bw recently have you? Do you at least know why the infamous 5 rax 2 star is not as frequently used? Have you even seen recent meta of fast shuttle drop plays that wreaked havoc on Terrans and Terrans finally overcoming it solely due to flash’s constant meta update? If you don’t know these I really recommend you stay out of this discussion. It looks like a guy who just studied accounting in accounting 101 say I know all bout accounting. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On October 25 2018 13:09 Letmelose wrote: The feeling of hopelessness people get from watching Flash games is due to the fact that it seems like Flash plays like he uses map hacks. This is possible, partly due to Flash's characteristics as a person, but also because the terran race tends to fare rather well purely in a game of information and decision making. If all parties involved had access to map hacks, the zerg race would probably struggle the most, because zerg players tend to use misinformation to their advantages (because their change of pace due to the larva system is the quickest, whereas other races are more commited to the choices they make), which is why they tend to fare better in best-of-series as opposed to standard environments, because it is easier to play mind games (forcing the opponent to play worse through misinformation, rather than two players playing the immaculate game) with the zerg race than it is for the other races. Protoss benefits heavily from even distribution of information too, but struggles to achieve information parity, but has more game changing RPG-esque units to make up for that. So purely within a game of decision making with minimal surprises, whether it is due to heroic usage of certain units, or a strike unthought of strategically speaking, the terran race probably benefits the most, and in the hands of the best decision maker (both in terms of speed and accuracy) the scene has ever seen, the games Flash succeeds in may seem very unfair. Only a few can keep up in that specific regard even on their best days, with Soulkey on good form probably being one of them (Flash has heavily commended Soulkey's decision making skills within the zerg-versus-terran match-up). Good analysis. I wonder if there have been been any streamed matches between pros playing with a maphack? Or on a UMS game where they get free vision everywhere. That would be fascinating to see how it shakes out when there's no build order randomness, and nowhere to hide. | ||
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errol1001
454 Posts
If they provide a 'level playing field' and the result is that Flash wins ASL 2,3,4,6,7,8,9, well, eventually, I think a lot of people are going to stop watching. I do believe both that Flash is god and that Terran has a slight advantage. It just doesn't matter though. If Flash doesn't have a real competitor, they need to prop one up with the map pool, but can't go so far that it just feels fake like last season. anyway, maps. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
The reason why I believe Protoss has had the least amount of title wins in the entire history of SC broodwar is because of the T>Z>P>T theory. Protoss have had a slight lead against Terran in PvT, but lose a good margin more in ZvP. So when you take into account which race and match ups eliminate each other, Terran is usually standing the strongest statistical chance at winning any given tournament not factoring maps because of how the match up strengths/advantages play out. Terran is only slightly underperforming against Protoss while Protoss by comparison underperforms quite a bit against Zerg. And Zerg underperforms slightly against Terran. So while Zerg eliminates Protoss, Terran's worst theoretically match up is eliminated and even if they face it's only a slight disadvantage in terms of statistics. So I think if they just fix something with ZvP make scouting more accessible for Protoss in the early stages or Protoss figures out some new meta game against them, people can stop whining about balance. Oh and not to forget about ZvT, perhaps make queens start with more energy or ensnare less mana cost to make it more accessible to use against bio. It would lead to less all-in hive rush type strategies, and make lair tech more viable in mid game to survive until defilers. I think a good chunk of ZvP wins are due to the early game advantages that Zerg has. When it goes to mid to late game Protoss doesn't have to fear losing to all ins or being faked out with hydra bust ,etc. Otherwise I think PvZ is pretty balanced. | ||
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Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
On October 25 2018 05:37 JoinTheRain wrote: No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's. In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock. Having said that, I do find it distasteful and ugly to spew mindless hatred and to try to abuse people in any way. But it is bound to happen to any man who finds success in any field and that man has to learn how to deal properly with such situations. I don't think you have the correct picture of what happened. I don't either necessarily-- I was watching that stream and when it was clear Last was about to lose it, I started running stuff through the translator, expecting it to be upset over the 2-3 semis loss vs Effort. Each time someone said something like: "you're a pro", or "don't cry", "Effort played really well", someone else mentioned that the problem was politics not that match. Stork was mentioned several times. Ppl were suggesting Last not play. Hopefully someone can expand on details, because I can't run the whole stream through translate. | ||
Sigrun
United States1654 Posts
Flash is the same, with the major difference being...there is no new generation to usurp him. In the past, when a player dominated, they were usually beaten by a newer player who brought new ideas, a new playstyle, or better mechanics to the scene. There's no next generation of players here. No up and coming Brood War players who receive pro-level training in a teamhouse and practice all day. Brood War has basically just become about the same ten to twenty progamers, who we see in every tournament. Of course Flash is going to keep winning. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On October 25 2018 13:57 Luddite wrote: Good analysis. I wonder if there have been been any streamed matches between pros playing with a maphack? Or on a UMS game where they get free vision everywhere. That would be fascinating to see how it shakes out when there's no build order randomness, and nowhere to hide. I think Flash played against Terror using maphack on stream once. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
Watching Snow play PvT, is like watching Bisu play PvZ. It looks so ridiculesly hard to play against, these players who understand how to abuse protoss. Which is what protoss needs to do. | ||
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Athinira
Denmark33 Posts
On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote: The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-stats Granted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. Exactly in what way do they speak for themselves? Terran has a 53.85% winrate against Zerg, which in turn has a 53.46% winrate against Protoss, which then again has a 51.09% winrate against Terran. So Protoss already outclass Terran by a small margin, and Mech upgrade nerfs hurts TvP more than TvZ, so how again is that the correct approach? As for the League statistics. Yes, Terran is on top, but consider that many of them have been won by Flash. In fact, if remove Flash from the statistics there (counting only premier and major tournaments) and assuming the runner-up would have been the winner, the result comes out as follows: - 37 tournament wins for Terran - 41 tournament wins for Zerg - 24 tournament wins for Protoss I don't think anyone is gonna argue that the game is perfectly balanced. But people asking for upgrade nerfs are barking up the wrong tree, plain and simple. It's a poor balancing act. Rather, it seems like perhaps Protoss could use some help against Zerg. But arguing for Terran nerfs because Flash is a monster is poor judgement. | ||
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Moridin
Bulgaria164 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
Dark Swarm is just a ridiculously overpowered spell, plague is crazy, storms is insane, recall is just silly, siege tanks are just not fair, repair is imba and SCVs having 50% more etc. etc. etc. Terran is probably the race with the biggest strengths, but also the biggest weaknesses and the race that requires the most of the player. Like, a move 2 marines vs 1 zealot and the zealot tear the marines to shreds without taking much damage. But micro them perfectly and they kill the zealot without taking damage. And the siege tanks requires a lot of game knowledge and understanding of the flow to utilize perfectly, if you make a mistake it is easy to overwhelm them. And the other races can exploit that if they have the skills to do so. But right now, Flash is just a step above everyone else and the game isn't as even as it was during the Kespa and team house era, and there isn't as many players that really perform at the top level that can beat how solid Flash is or break down his play in practice etc. There is always a question of map balance and how the map balance changes as the meta changes. What I am trying to say, as a awful player with my very shallow analysis of the game is that Terran doesn't need a nerf and it is silly that, there are some maps that are Terran favored, but there are also some maps that are biased against Terran. The map pool has to be tweaked as the meta changes. But Flash is the best player around by a pretty wide margin, his game sense, his deep understanding of the game as he shows again and again when he analyzes the games etc, him also winning a lot just makes sense then does it not? Last crushing Jaedong was disappointing as a huge JD fan, but I was also really happy for Last as he has been one of the best players in the world since remastered came out and he finally got a win in a tournament. And he just played better. I am really sad to hear how badly fans reacted to it and how personal Last took it. The amount of balance whine in this thread is just sad... | ||
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Aesthetician
20 Posts
I would be more willing to agree that Protoss needs just a little something to help against late game Zerg that wouldn't break the meta completely. Cheaper Khaydarin Amulet? Who knows. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On October 25 2018 17:21 Athinira wrote: As for the League statistics. Yes, Terran is on top, but consider that many of them have been won by Flash. In fact, if remove Flash from the statistics there (counting only premier and major tournaments) and assuming the runner-up would have been the winner, the result comes out as follows: - 37 tournament wins for Terran - 41 tournament wins for Zerg - 24 tournament wins for Protoss I don't think anyone is gonna argue that the game is perfectly balanced. But people asking for upgrade nerfs are barking up the wrong tree, plain and simple. It's a poor balancing act. Rather, it seems like perhaps Protoss could use some help against Zerg. But arguing for Terran nerfs because Flash is a monster is poor judgement. Not saying that Terran is imba, but your argument makes no sense. You'd have to remove Jaedong from the Zerg stats and Bisu or whatever from Protoss to make that a point. | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On October 26 2018 04:31 Barneyk wrote: I really like how someone said that BW is balanced around every race being OP. Dark Swarm is just a ridiculously overpowered spell, plague is crazy, storms is insane, recall is just silly, siege tanks are just not fair, repair is imba and SCVs having 50% more etc. etc. etc. Terran is probably the race with the biggest strengths, but also the biggest weaknesses and the race that requires the most of the player. Like, a move 2 marines vs 1 zealot and the zealot tear the marines to shreds without taking much damage. But micro them perfectly and they kill the zealot without taking damage. And the siege tanks requires a lot of game knowledge and understanding of the flow to utilize perfectly, if you make a mistake it is easy to overwhelm them. And the other races can exploit that if they have the skills to do so. But right now, Flash is just a step above everyone else and the game isn't as even as it was during the Kespa and team house era, and there isn't as many players that really perform at the top level that can beat how solid Flash is or break down his play in practice etc. There is always a question of map balance and how the map balance changes as the meta changes. What I am trying to say, as a awful player with my very shallow analysis of the game is that Terran doesn't need a nerf and it is silly that, there are some maps that are Terran favored, but there are also some maps that are biased against Terran. The map pool has to be tweaked as the meta changes. But Flash is the best player around by a pretty wide margin, his game sense, his deep understanding of the game as he shows again and again when he analyzes the games etc, him also winning a lot just makes sense then does it not? Last crushing Jaedong was disappointing as a huge JD fan, but I was also really happy for Last as he has been one of the best players in the world since remastered came out and he finally got a win in a tournament. And he just played better. I am really sad to hear how badly fans reacted to it and how personal Last took it. The amount of balance whine in this thread is just sad... It's funny because Flash is the only good TvP player right now. Rain/Snow/Mini/Best are tearing Terrans apart and there's no Terran other than Flash I would favour in a BO5 with these 4. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10499 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
On October 25 2018 16:23 Ota Solgryn wrote: Anyone having problem with PvT "balance" here should watch a bunch of Snow vs Flash games on youtube and see exactly how a top PvT'er can compete with Flash. A player who understands how to ABUSE protoss units and to ABUSE maps to split up terran SLOOOOW army. Watching Snow play PvT, is like watching Bisu play PvZ. It looks so ridiculesly hard to play against, these players who understand how to abuse protoss. Which is what protoss needs to do. AGREE 100% !! abuse storm , reaver , idk ..maybe sairs, anything !! Not make only zealots and dragoons and chargeeeeee the terran army , when all siege tanks are in siege mode !! | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 26 2018 12:57 Dante08 wrote: It's funny because Flash is the only good TvP player right now. Rain/Snow/Mini/Best are tearing Terrans apart and there's no Terran other than Flash I would favour in a BO5 with these 4. Pretty much, but I mean Flash is Terran so it must mean that Terran is OP and Tesagi is real! No, it can't be that Flash is that much better than the competition, that we see expros play like chobos and we see others play like they have been defeated before even playing. Just sad. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On October 26 2018 15:07 BigFan wrote: Pretty much, but I mean Flash is Terran so it must mean that Terran is OP and Tesagi is real! No, it can't be that Flash is that much better than the competition, that we see expros play like chobos and we see others play like they have been defeated before even playing. Just sad. Hey all, Let's just amicably let it at: it has been proven that Terran has a bit of an advantage at the highest level of competition, however it is difficult to mark it as an imbalance in the actual game since it is only been shown in certain eras by maybe 2-3 players in the 20 years of BW. | ||
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
PS: You cannot beat Flash by playing standard games... | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On October 26 2018 17:35 Yanokabo wrote: I don’t think any other terrans can touch flash. Tvt is a chess matchup where you can get lucky on build order at times but nobody seems to be able to take him mechanicahlly. Last had the best shot of anyone but I think his odd were under 5% and he lost anyway so we won’t find out. Well, from Moo proleague showmatch that was played yesterday (team Last vs team Flash). Shuttle and Mini both played poorly against Flash, no way around it. | ||
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Artas1984
Lithuania119 Posts
On October 24 2018 03:58 Dantak wrote: Or just subscribe to this guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGIx6XUmoVMf01PVrOjVbRA WOW! Thank you so much! I've been searching for KSL matches in youtube like crazy and all i could find {except final matches} were some random games on korean and russian!!! This is unbelievable!!!! On October 24 2018 12:30 Motivate wrote: I think Rapid has shown considerable improvement already. I hope he continues to improve and show more of an analytical/strategic side to things. Yes, Rapid is good now, but that Soya guy {no regrets) should be replaced as he only knows stuff about SC2 and is not entertaining as Rapid in general. Rapid is a charismatic guy, i like him a lot. His solo cast is very good. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On October 25 2018 17:21 Athinira wrote: Exactly in what way do they speak for themselves? Terran has a 53.85% winrate against Zerg, which in turn has a 53.46% winrate against Protoss, which then again has a 51.09% winrate against Terran. So Protoss already outclass Terran by a small margin, and Mech upgrade nerfs hurts TvP more than TvZ, so how again is that the correct approach? As for the League statistics. Yes, Terran is on top, but consider that many of them have been won by Flash. In fact, if remove Flash from the statistics there (counting only premier and major tournaments) and assuming the runner-up would have been the winner, the result comes out as follows: - 37 tournament wins for Terran - 41 tournament wins for Zerg - 24 tournament wins for Protoss I don't think anyone is gonna argue that the game is perfectly balanced. But people asking for upgrade nerfs are barking up the wrong tree, plain and simple. It's a poor balancing act. Rather, it seems like perhaps Protoss could use some help against Zerg. But arguing for Terran nerfs because Flash is a monster is poor judgement. remouve Bisu and Jeadong too... what is the rez now? | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
also how can people just ignore ASL 5 which was ENDLESS PVP. even as a zerg player i found ASL 5 just gross. sparkle was basically unwinnable in TvZ and ZvP. i'm sad transistor is still around. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On October 27 2018 12:53 Antisocialmunky wrote: Didn't Flash's claim that his P better than his T? Maybe someone can talk him into off-racing next ASL. Terran players losing to non-protoss mains happens more often than you'd imagine. Flash lost multiple times playing terran versus Light's protoss, and Last claimed that if he were to play a mirror match against himself, the protoss version of himself would end up victorious. So many terran players have extreme confidence in their protoss-versus-terran capabilities. I think most of it is more of a hyperbole of how easy it is to win with the protoss race. The hard part of playing protoss isn't being good enough to win, it is being good enough to win a lot consistently. | ||
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BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
Bonyth vs TBD
WardiTV European League
Wardi Open
OSC
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EPT
Afreeca Starleague Season 6![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/86.jpg)
