Originally posted by jinjin on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7r50m2/flash_smashed_tvz_in_bw_with_new_meta_bringing/)
Flash right now has close to 80% winrate in TvZ, thanks to his new refinement of 1/1/1, which was rather niche BO in BW. After experimenting with 1/1/1 for monthds despite viewers ridiculing him about it's poor performance, FlaSh seems to have broken through with brand new take and refinement on 1/1/1, just completely smashing the matchup winrate to overwhelming favor to terran.
Flash's 111 is very different from existing bw 111 such as ssak's preferred version and takes advantage to the versatility of 111 to bring out most of the mindgame and option terran would have. Flash said on interview that usage of 111 is primarily focused on mindgame part, and it's usage depends on how opponent would play the game out.
Very interesting that Terran continues to develop in bw even to this day. Flash said that he had to come up with new build to continue on as zergs were getting comfortable with 5rax meta, and he came out with smashing new refinement and take on 111 to completely flip the state of tvz as we know right now.
Flash said that zergs getting better on dealing with 5rax left him no choice but to reinvent and develop. People said that 5rax was the "ultimate" terran refinement and final build order, but flash was feeling that zergs would figure it out sooner or later and they did.
since i'm in korea right now, i haven't had the time to study flash's latest tvz's. guess this is where this discussion thread comes in to play.
I seen him beat Larva at least 5 games in a row I think they went on to play more. He would 1 rax into early expand into factory vulture starport wraith harass with vultures(Early spider mines used to great effect as well) and wraiths(with cloak used greatly) real good doing powerful damage ebay acad turrets then add 5 rax and deny any third expansion.He would also tech into mech if needed usually having some type of advantage from the build. He would actually tech to science facility and irradiate mutalisks with his science vessel before acad. He would even make bunker rush attempts sometimes. He seemed to handle mutas so much better now too. He also obliterates lurkers with it. It seems made to deny hive tech / late game zerg and it works very well. I hope to see it against SK,effort,and hero. Hope this helps with an idea of what it's about.
Here's a link to the vod on his site where he did this bo several times.
I was watching quite a bit of Flash executing variety of these 1-1-1 builds.
Firstly, he didn't invent the wheel. We've seen all that already, but what he did is sharpened his responses and connected the puzzles better. That combined with his superior execution / micro / macro makes it really deadly. Especially his defense skills stand out, where he sometimes defends 6-12 mutas with pure turrets/vessels and single marines - sick positioning and repairs.
Secondly, the build itself is really so much about the right reaction. Conceptually, if zerg allows the terran to tech to 7:00 vessel with irradiate and further into 5 rax / 3 tank / 4 vessel push without doing any significant damage, zerg is behind. At least when zerg plays standard e.g 2 or 3 hath muta into lurker and fast hive. So what is tried is a lot of different all-in / semi-all-in timings to try and punish Flash between 4-7 minutes, incl: hydra busts, mass lings, 2 hath muta with mass ling, hydra busts with speed ov, mass ling with hydra, lurker all in etc. And that is where Flash has been particularly strong with his "improvements". His initial SCV scout combined with 1st vulture combined with wraith gives him close to non-stop vision over zerg and allows to adjust.
a. if zerg goes standard 3 hath into 9 mutas, Flash goes for mines and vulture speed + drop + vessel with irradiate at 7:00 b. if zerg goes any type of 2 hath muta, flash commonly replies with cloked wraith with mass turret c. if zerg goes for mass hydra, flash adds a quick tank (+mines along the way) and adds a drop d. if zerg goes for mass ling, it's bascially a coin flip (either Flash dies or holds and wins easily). This is tricky as this hits before wraith and many mines on the map, so it comes down to Flash making a bunker in time, getting vulture speed ASAP and trying to hold with scv/wraith/vulture. Ofc with Flash mechanics he is winning most of these games. e. if zerg lurker/ling all in it's usually too slow as Flash has mines that has to be cleared and just makes 2-3 bunkers to deny any aggresion
After all that, it's always the 5 rax + tank + mass vessel follow up (commonly with a dropship coming just after his 3-4 vessels to attack 3rd), SK terran or mech switch depending on the map. 80% of games end with that 1st big push, as it hits extreamly early and is so strong with 3-4 vessels with irradiate. (Flash usually moves out with 3 tanks, 4 vessels and anything between 12-24 marines at 9:00 mark).
I think what zerg really have to focus on is:
- further investigate the potential of aggresive timings before 7:00 mark and what is the best follow up understanding that mass vessel is on the way - develop an alternative style that will defend enough vs wraith/vulture drop and optimize the army to defend the 9:00 push - standard 7:00 mutas + lurker/hive just don't cut it. Maybe some kind of 4 hathery mass hydra with some huge lurker wave just before 9:00? Maybe quick 3 bases purely on hydra? As soon as zerg realizes that this is a 12 gas build zerg should probably go much heavier on drone, maybe threaten some mass ling attacks with it and just before 9:00 have his biggest wave of units ready - develop right reactions to this big 9 minute push. I think what most zergs really struggele is when this timing hit, just before defiler with swarm (even with very quick hive from zerg). Maybe some backstab ideas should be more considered, because zerg just doesn't have enough to fight this at 9:30~ when push is already at the natural
All in all, we've seen what Flash does in a past in so many variations. It's just Flash himself that combined this with his perfect gameplay. Previously one of the more common answers from zerg was to acutally go hydra/lurker, and I haven't seen much of that from pro zergs like Larva / SK / Effort. If I were to try something, I would go standard 3 hath, and as soon I see it's 12 gas from zerg, go 5 hath with 3rd base, and only add lair later to make like 12 lurkers at once before 9:00 push (as you don't need lurkers before that, because 5 rax production has to kick in before terran moves out).
I'm watching that VOD from two posts above, but game 1 is a fourpool (or smt), 2 is rax-cc-fac-port, 3 is a 5 rax and 4 is rax-fac-port. I don't see a line in this.
I'm genuinely thinking that zerg has some allin options involving mass hydra and queens for broodling that should beat this. I just have a hard time seeing terran get sufficient marine production in time to hold the allin without any tanks for defense after opening with 1/1/1.
I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
On January 20 2018 06:21 StylishVODs wrote: I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
I mean exactly why it is so effective and "new" Is that flash took he build and refined it and experimented it for months to come to this state. It should be defined so as it was previously unseen on how to piece together and optimize the build
On January 20 2018 04:00 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'm genuinely thinking that zerg has some allin options involving mass hydra and queens for broodling that should beat this. I just have a hard time seeing terran get sufficient marine production in time to hold the allin without any tanks for defense after opening with 1/1/1.
I think any kind if Hydra bust would have to happen before the Terran gets Medic/Marine. Even with Ensnare and Broodling, the Hydras will not beat Marines in bunkers. - I am assuming this is top-level play of course. So that realistically leaves 2 Hatch into Hydra all-in, which is a loss if you do not do any critical damage. But it can be strong enough to win if executed well enough. The key is to get steady Hydra production before mines are on the map. Maybe even a super low economy style 3 hatch into Hydra all-in, which isn't that different really.
If you get to the mid-game and you are still in good shape, you can stop them from moving out with a ling/Lurker/Queen composition and abusing Broodling. When you have the cash for Spire and Scourge, you can start to snipe Vessels. Get Defiler tech on top of 3 or 4 bases and GG.
And let's not mention the crazy tech switches Zerg can do against Terran's mech composition once they secure four gas...
On January 20 2018 06:21 StylishVODs wrote: I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
The build is absolutely crushing standard zerg play, such as 3 hatch muta. People are crying "imbalanced, op op, tesagi" everywhere. If it wasn't new, Terrans would have been doing this for years already.
On January 20 2018 06:21 StylishVODs wrote: I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
The build is absolutely crushing standard zerg play, such as 3 hatch muta. People are crying "imbalanced, op op, tesagi" everywhere. If it wasn't new, Terrans would have been doing this for years already.
Well to be fair, people have been crying about different things for as long as brood war have existed. I'm not really sure what's new about it. Some people tend to get the starport later, @28~ suply or so, but people have also gotten the starport right after fact and before third suply for a long time (like Flash does here).
Other than that, it's pretty much text book style. Expansion gas + Sci-fi after starting dropship OR control tower, then ebay, then turrets and 2 rax, then aca / bunker / irradiate and +1. Starting tanks after first vessel is finnished add another 2 rax when the first two are complete. Go to 2-3 tanks 3-4 vessel push.
I just watched the VODs and I can't find anything new except for what I mentioned earlier that is Flash's economic play. He might start a marine but cancel it, he might delay a unit in favour of being able to produce an scv, he might avoid situations where his scv production is halted due to a suply block for some seconds etc.
And the whole Tesagi trend going on wouldn't be an issue if we didn't have flash. I don't see any other terran dominating anything to be honest.
On January 20 2018 06:21 StylishVODs wrote: I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
The build is absolutely crushing standard zerg play, such as 3 hatch muta. People are crying "imbalanced, op op, tesagi" everywhere. If it wasn't new, Terrans would have been doing this for years already.
its not new fantasy / upmagic / (probably some other terrans im forgetting to mention) did this a long time ago
what im seeing is that flash did run these builds in the past but its was not really the way he would prefer to play since these builds are extremely fragile when it comes to zerg all-ins you can not make a single mistake early game but on the other hand you can gain an advantage pretty early its how these builds play out. its just Flash playing these builds with a more serious idear as a way of playing tvz and with his godly mechanics/defense he can actually do this.
but dont be mistaken he did win larva 5-0 more bos were sponsered after that were larva came back 2-1 vs the mech openings also he dropped some games while opening mech and just was not able to reach 10min game but overall he is doing great with that build ? but when is flash not doing great lol never
people were doing 8 rax into 111 on destination like, 10 years ago. The difference is the perfection of the execution - but that's a very significant evolution in brood war. Strategical evolution goes along with mechanical ability.
On January 21 2018 23:52 Liquid`Drone wrote: people were doing 8 rax into 111 on destination like, 10 years ago. The difference is the perfection of the execution - but that's a very significant evolution in brood war. Strategical evolution goes along with mechanical ability.
yea destination was the beacon for the mechbuilds TvZ the map made so many mech variations highly effective
just for chuckles how about the upmagic? i think he lift the 8rax up the zerg ramp behind mineral line bunkers the zerg main mineral line and followed up by 2port leezzzuuu >> into GG if i remember correctly haha
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