Originally posted by jinjin on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7r50m2/flash_smashed_tvz_in_bw_with_new_meta_bringing/)
Flash right now has close to 80% winrate in TvZ, thanks to his new refinement of 1/1/1, which was rather niche BO in BW. After experimenting with 1/1/1 for monthds despite viewers ridiculing him about it's poor performance, FlaSh seems to have broken through with brand new take and refinement on 1/1/1, just completely smashing the matchup winrate to overwhelming favor to terran.
Flash's 111 is very different from existing bw 111 such as ssak's preferred version and takes advantage to the versatility of 111 to bring out most of the mindgame and option terran would have. Flash said on interview that usage of 111 is primarily focused on mindgame part, and it's usage depends on how opponent would play the game out.
Very interesting that Terran continues to develop in bw even to this day. Flash said that he had to come up with new build to continue on as zergs were getting comfortable with 5rax meta, and he came out with smashing new refinement and take on 111 to completely flip the state of tvz as we know right now.
Flash said that zergs getting better on dealing with 5rax left him no choice but to reinvent and develop. People said that 5rax was the "ultimate" terran refinement and final build order, but flash was feeling that zergs would figure it out sooner or later and they did.
since i'm in korea right now, i haven't had the time to study flash's latest tvz's. guess this is where this discussion thread comes in to play.
I seen him beat Larva at least 5 games in a row I think they went on to play more. He would 1 rax into early expand into factory vulture starport wraith harass with vultures(Early spider mines used to great effect as well) and wraiths(with cloak used greatly) real good doing powerful damage ebay acad turrets then add 5 rax and deny any third expansion.He would also tech into mech if needed usually having some type of advantage from the build. He would actually tech to science facility and irradiate mutalisks with his science vessel before acad. He would even make bunker rush attempts sometimes. He seemed to handle mutas so much better now too. He also obliterates lurkers with it. It seems made to deny hive tech / late game zerg and it works very well. I hope to see it against SK,effort,and hero. Hope this helps with an idea of what it's about.
Here's a link to the vod on his site where he did this bo several times.
I was watching quite a bit of Flash executing variety of these 1-1-1 builds.
Firstly, he didn't invent the wheel. We've seen all that already, but what he did is sharpened his responses and connected the puzzles better. That combined with his superior execution / micro / macro makes it really deadly. Especially his defense skills stand out, where he sometimes defends 6-12 mutas with pure turrets/vessels and single marines - sick positioning and repairs.
Secondly, the build itself is really so much about the right reaction. Conceptually, if zerg allows the terran to tech to 7:00 vessel with irradiate and further into 5 rax / 3 tank / 4 vessel push without doing any significant damage, zerg is behind. At least when zerg plays standard e.g 2 or 3 hath muta into lurker and fast hive. So what is tried is a lot of different all-in / semi-all-in timings to try and punish Flash between 4-7 minutes, incl: hydra busts, mass lings, 2 hath muta with mass ling, hydra busts with speed ov, mass ling with hydra, lurker all in etc. And that is where Flash has been particularly strong with his "improvements". His initial SCV scout combined with 1st vulture combined with wraith gives him close to non-stop vision over zerg and allows to adjust.
a. if zerg goes standard 3 hath into 9 mutas, Flash goes for mines and vulture speed + drop + vessel with irradiate at 7:00 b. if zerg goes any type of 2 hath muta, flash commonly replies with cloked wraith with mass turret c. if zerg goes for mass hydra, flash adds a quick tank (+mines along the way) and adds a drop d. if zerg goes for mass ling, it's bascially a coin flip (either Flash dies or holds and wins easily). This is tricky as this hits before wraith and many mines on the map, so it comes down to Flash making a bunker in time, getting vulture speed ASAP and trying to hold with scv/wraith/vulture. Ofc with Flash mechanics he is winning most of these games. e. if zerg lurker/ling all in it's usually too slow as Flash has mines that has to be cleared and just makes 2-3 bunkers to deny any aggresion
After all that, it's always the 5 rax + tank + mass vessel follow up (commonly with a dropship coming just after his 3-4 vessels to attack 3rd), SK terran or mech switch depending on the map. 80% of games end with that 1st big push, as it hits extreamly early and is so strong with 3-4 vessels with irradiate. (Flash usually moves out with 3 tanks, 4 vessels and anything between 12-24 marines at 9:00 mark).
I think what zerg really have to focus on is:
- further investigate the potential of aggresive timings before 7:00 mark and what is the best follow up understanding that mass vessel is on the way - develop an alternative style that will defend enough vs wraith/vulture drop and optimize the army to defend the 9:00 push - standard 7:00 mutas + lurker/hive just don't cut it. Maybe some kind of 4 hathery mass hydra with some huge lurker wave just before 9:00? Maybe quick 3 bases purely on hydra? As soon as zerg realizes that this is a 12 gas build zerg should probably go much heavier on drone, maybe threaten some mass ling attacks with it and just before 9:00 have his biggest wave of units ready - develop right reactions to this big 9 minute push. I think what most zergs really struggele is when this timing hit, just before defiler with swarm (even with very quick hive from zerg). Maybe some backstab ideas should be more considered, because zerg just doesn't have enough to fight this at 9:30~ when push is already at the natural
All in all, we've seen what Flash does in a past in so many variations. It's just Flash himself that combined this with his perfect gameplay. Previously one of the more common answers from zerg was to acutally go hydra/lurker, and I haven't seen much of that from pro zergs like Larva / SK / Effort. If I were to try something, I would go standard 3 hath, and as soon I see it's 12 gas from zerg, go 5 hath with 3rd base, and only add lair later to make like 12 lurkers at once before 9:00 push (as you don't need lurkers before that, because 5 rax production has to kick in before terran moves out).
I'm watching that VOD from two posts above, but game 1 is a fourpool (or smt), 2 is rax-cc-fac-port, 3 is a 5 rax and 4 is rax-fac-port. I don't see a line in this.
I'm genuinely thinking that zerg has some allin options involving mass hydra and queens for broodling that should beat this. I just have a hard time seeing terran get sufficient marine production in time to hold the allin without any tanks for defense after opening with 1/1/1.
I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
On January 20 2018 06:21 StylishVODs wrote: I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
I mean exactly why it is so effective and "new" Is that flash took he build and refined it and experimented it for months to come to this state. It should be defined so as it was previously unseen on how to piece together and optimize the build
On January 20 2018 04:00 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'm genuinely thinking that zerg has some allin options involving mass hydra and queens for broodling that should beat this. I just have a hard time seeing terran get sufficient marine production in time to hold the allin without any tanks for defense after opening with 1/1/1.
I think any kind if Hydra bust would have to happen before the Terran gets Medic/Marine. Even with Ensnare and Broodling, the Hydras will not beat Marines in bunkers. - I am assuming this is top-level play of course. So that realistically leaves 2 Hatch into Hydra all-in, which is a loss if you do not do any critical damage. But it can be strong enough to win if executed well enough. The key is to get steady Hydra production before mines are on the map. Maybe even a super low economy style 3 hatch into Hydra all-in, which isn't that different really.
If you get to the mid-game and you are still in good shape, you can stop them from moving out with a ling/Lurker/Queen composition and abusing Broodling. When you have the cash for Spire and Scourge, you can start to snipe Vessels. Get Defiler tech on top of 3 or 4 bases and GG.
And let's not mention the crazy tech switches Zerg can do against Terran's mech composition once they secure four gas...
On January 20 2018 06:21 StylishVODs wrote: I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
The build is absolutely crushing standard zerg play, such as 3 hatch muta. People are crying "imbalanced, op op, tesagi" everywhere. If it wasn't new, Terrans would have been doing this for years already.
On January 20 2018 06:21 StylishVODs wrote: I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
The build is absolutely crushing standard zerg play, such as 3 hatch muta. People are crying "imbalanced, op op, tesagi" everywhere. If it wasn't new, Terrans would have been doing this for years already.
Well to be fair, people have been crying about different things for as long as brood war have existed. I'm not really sure what's new about it. Some people tend to get the starport later, @28~ suply or so, but people have also gotten the starport right after fact and before third suply for a long time (like Flash does here).
Other than that, it's pretty much text book style. Expansion gas + Sci-fi after starting dropship OR control tower, then ebay, then turrets and 2 rax, then aca / bunker / irradiate and +1. Starting tanks after first vessel is finnished add another 2 rax when the first two are complete. Go to 2-3 tanks 3-4 vessel push.
I just watched the VODs and I can't find anything new except for what I mentioned earlier that is Flash's economic play. He might start a marine but cancel it, he might delay a unit in favour of being able to produce an scv, he might avoid situations where his scv production is halted due to a suply block for some seconds etc.
And the whole Tesagi trend going on wouldn't be an issue if we didn't have flash. I don't see any other terran dominating anything to be honest.
On January 20 2018 06:21 StylishVODs wrote: I mean, Flash is Flash, but I can't really see anything "new" about this. He just does it very well with his usual economic play, delaying any units he doesn't need directly by prioritizing scvs and suplys and faster tech. As for the queen/hydra bust, terran has the option to start producing marines from the first barrack a lot earlier and would probably be alright with two bunkers?
The build is absolutely crushing standard zerg play, such as 3 hatch muta. People are crying "imbalanced, op op, tesagi" everywhere. If it wasn't new, Terrans would have been doing this for years already.
its not new fantasy / upmagic / (probably some other terrans im forgetting to mention) did this a long time ago
what im seeing is that flash did run these builds in the past but its was not really the way he would prefer to play since these builds are extremely fragile when it comes to zerg all-ins you can not make a single mistake early game but on the other hand you can gain an advantage pretty early its how these builds play out. its just Flash playing these builds with a more serious idear as a way of playing tvz and with his godly mechanics/defense he can actually do this.
but dont be mistaken he did win larva 5-0 more bos were sponsered after that were larva came back 2-1 vs the mech openings also he dropped some games while opening mech and just was not able to reach 10min game but overall he is doing great with that build ? but when is flash not doing great lol never
people were doing 8 rax into 111 on destination like, 10 years ago. The difference is the perfection of the execution - but that's a very significant evolution in brood war. Strategical evolution goes along with mechanical ability.
On January 21 2018 23:52 Liquid`Drone wrote: people were doing 8 rax into 111 on destination like, 10 years ago. The difference is the perfection of the execution - but that's a very significant evolution in brood war. Strategical evolution goes along with mechanical ability.
yea destination was the beacon for the mechbuilds TvZ the map made so many mech variations highly effective
just for chuckles how about the upmagic? i think he lift the 8rax up the zerg ramp behind mineral line bunkers the zerg main mineral line and followed up by 2port leezzzuuu >> into GG if i remember correctly haha
On January 22 2018 07:06 kogeT wrote: Last and others also started to play more 1-1-1 (as always, Flash popularizes a style and everyone else follows), but with much less succes.
even with much less success, winrates have gone up pretty across board
On January 22 2018 07:06 kogeT wrote: Last and others also started to play more 1-1-1 (as always, Flash popularizes a style and everyone else follows), but with much less succes.
even with much less success, winrates have gone up pretty across board
Where should i look for stats on this? Perhaps a place where you can see Last, Ssak, Flash, the other Terrans who use it.
I wonder about the others winrates, compared to Flash.
Here you can see winrates, overall and against individual races, for any time period you like over the last year, second column selects a race and third column is for maps. Top right gray box switches ranking system between ELO and winrate. You can find korean names from TLPD
Top 100 zergs should go on a seminar weekend, sit down with a council of the former top players. IF nothing of that works, perhaps 100 floors down behind a forbidden door you can go ask Savior what he thinks should be done.
On January 23 2018 06:40 ortseam wrote: Here you can see winrates, overall and against individual races, for any time period you like over the last year, second column selects a race and third column is for maps. Top right gray box switches ranking system between ELO and winrate. You can find korean names from TLPD
Wow tesagi is real.. no single zerg with >50% winrate vs T. Now what is interesting we had a lot of zergs with good win rations vs Terran back in Kespa days. What has happened? Maps? (dominance of CB and FS)
On January 23 2018 06:40 ortseam wrote: Here you can see winrates, overall and against individual races, for any time period you like over the last year, second column selects a race and third column is for maps. Top right gray box switches ranking system between ELO and winrate. You can find korean names from TLPD
Wow tesagi is real.. no single zerg with >50% winrate vs T. Now what is interesting we had a lot of zergs with good win rations vs Terran back in Kespa days. What has happened? Maps? (dominance of CB and FS)
If you use the complete available time frame from 05-2017 to 2018 you will see Effort and Soulkey and some Z that isn't in TLPD with winrates >50%.
feels like P>T>Z is pretty usual? Flash and last do well in tournys, other than that... Anyway, as with any new popular strat, give it some time and awesomeness of BW will find a balance.
Haven't watched a vod, but if Effort manages to kill 3 tanks with broodlings than that is quite a hydra-queen. To have 3 queens with brood ling at that time is already a huge commitment.
On January 24 2018 08:37 Alpha-NP- wrote: Can someone please explain the main advantage of going the 1-1-1 build is for Terran?
Also, what is Flash referring to in how Zerg now can play against 5 rax? What's causing Flash to change builds? Thanks.
1) You get a very good harasment potential before mutas are out, be it with vultures/wraith/dropship (not incl. that you can 8 rax into vulture) 2) You get a very good map vision and map control. Vultures put mines in critical expansions, can kill drones that go to expansions. You also limit whole vission with wraith killing ovies on high ground and vultures killing lings running around the map - that is the mindgame part. Zerg doesn't know what exactly terran does and terran can exactly prepare for what zerg is doing. 3) You get your tech MUCH quicker. What would normally be standard is 9:30~ vessel. Here Flash get 4 vessels at 9:00 mark. 4) All in all the build is very versatile and allows terran to adjust constantly, while in standard bio play you only get full scouting while your scans are out at around 6:00 mark. 5) The downside is different aggresion options that zerg has before terran setups whole production, be it various mass ling all ins, hydra allins etc.
As for your second point, there two main ideas about zergs learning how to deal with 5 rax. One is top zergs learned to be very good with muta ling and are not that scared to fight in the middle - if terran loses the initial 16 marines 4 medics without killing a significant amount of lings / mutas (and if bad positioning it can happen easily), terran can never really get the map control or threaten the 3rd. Second thing is zergs like to play things like 7 mutas lurker to secure the 3rd quicker. All in all, 5 rax is still super strong and one mistake from zerg can make it a game, but I Flash likes to achieve consistent results and he probably was losing some games here and there to above mentioned..
On January 24 2018 17:45 kogeT wrote: Haven't watched a vod, but if Effort manages to kill 3 tanks with broodlings than that is quite a hydra-queen. To have 3 queens with brood ling at that time is already a huge commitment.
I'm more saying it wasn't hydra than that it wasn't queen. basically he made 12-18 or so hydras before he made or used queens and after losing those hydras he was going pure ling defiler. queens and hydras weren't in play at the same time.
Effort lost that game when he attempted to bust the ramp. Lost like 8 hydras and basically killed nothing. If he had sat on the low ground at the bottom of flashs natural (near his refinery) he could of continued to delay the natural and picked off tanks when they attempted to move to the low ground to seige where they could hit them. Losing all the hydras forced effort into producing more (nothing else he could build with his tech) instead of droning and getting the 3rd earlier.
Scvs take 12 hydra volleys to kill which is why he failed to break the ramp (he was also fighting uphill against the miss chance). I think a muta switch would of been better than queens and a fast hive. Flash would of probably gone cloaked wraiths (he scouted with the vult drop and would of adjusted) but this is costly with a 1 base economy, Flash had few rines, no turrets, no academy, no stim, no range, and the wraiths wouldnt be useful offensively with how late they would be.
Most likely zergs will attempt some sort of all in. Mass lings, few muta tech switch lurk/ling bust etc. This builds weakness is that you actually have quite few units early. If you do everything right you can defend it, but its really hard.
On February 06 2018 05:18 StylishVODs wrote: If you do everything right you can defend it, but its really hard.
Obviously this is Flash's specialty, and it's one of the things that make him so damn fun to watch. It's cool to see him pull TvZ toward his unique strength after all this time.
I get that not everyone finds it that interesting, but if you do, it's just a thing to behold.
One of the things that hooked me back in the day was watching Flash winning TvP on the original Medusa. I believe at one point, he was 7-1 and all other Terran were 7-35 or something ... this was before they modified the map and made it Neo Medusa. That map pushed his defensive instincts to the limits and was a perfect environment for showcasing his ability to do something no other player could imitate.
On February 06 2018 05:18 StylishVODs wrote: Most likely zergs will attempt some sort of all in. Mass lings, few muta tech switch lurk/ling bust etc. This builds weakness is that you actually have quite few units early. If you do everything right you can defend it, but its really hard.
flash highlighted in this recent video on the build's relative weakness vs 18 hatch muta, where the zerg does timing with mass lings and 8 muta while keeping terran in blind with 8 mutalisks so terran can't clearly see if zerg is droning up or making lings.
Flash said that since he doesn't like to play too safe and make himself disadvantaged for no reason, he is reluctant to put up 3 turrets beside his rax, as it loses out on scv production. Due to that, he needs to defend with wraiths and turret, but that gets rid of any scouting opportunity due to 1/1/1 delaying scans for very long time. That means that terran doesn't know what tech path zerg is going or if he is doing timing.
On February 06 2018 05:18 StylishVODs wrote: Most likely zergs will attempt some sort of all in. Mass lings, few muta tech switch lurk/ling bust etc. This builds weakness is that you actually have quite few units early. If you do everything right you can defend it, but its really hard.
flash highlighted in this recent video on the build's relative weakness vs 18 hatch muta, where the zerg does timing with mass lings and 8 muta while keeping terran in blind with 8 mutalisks so terran can't clearly see if zerg is droning up or making lings.
Flash said that since he doesn't like to play too safe and make himself disadvantaged for no reason, he is reluctant to put up 3 turrets beside his rax, as it loses out on scv production. Due to that, he needs to defend with wraiths and turret, but that gets rid of any scouting opportunity due to 1/1/1 delaying scans for very long time. That means that terran doesn't know what tech path zerg is going or if he is doing timing.
Sounds reasonable. Personally I feel that the build can afford some sort of economic disadvantage given the tech-path advantage. Your initial wraith will always get the scout, but after that it's hard to see what zerg does. I think terrans will go for safer play dispite the economical disadvantage due to this. Cut one scv here, and one more there, and suddely you have another turret + bunker without cutting the vessel count.
game has really changed dramatically since 2009. flash is the one player focusing on upgrade descriptions for timings. at least as far as associating numbers flash is top. words too much mostly for tiered terran.
I think zerg had a good shot with going some muta into super fast hive and mass ling, to fend off this tank / vessel push with cracklings and follow up swarm. This has worked great, but Flash has yet again adapted and now upon seeing that zerg is not making many / any lurkers he doesn't make any or very few tanks and pushes out with 3 medics / 12 marine / 1-2 vessels to deny zergs 3rd before cracklings are out.
I`ve been doing these kind of openings since ages, I still remember Shaman doing it flawlessy 15 years ago. Sure the maps are changing, sure optimiziations are happening, but these are only trends nevertheless. Just like chess openings: they come and go, they have some inherent advantages/disadvantages on short and long terms, but you can always use another one. I found it funny when the best player does something new, in an instant it becomes a new trend like it would change the mu forever (I`m aware it does change things indeed to a degree), but I think that`s not because it`s so effective, it`s because it`s new.
It's like a breadth first search of strategies over time. Each time, a new strategy comes up that does better vs the currently popular strategies, but every time it rotates in it's explored to far more depth than previous times. Pretty good state for the game to be in, shows that the tree of viable decisions is both broad and deep
On April 08 2018 20:42 kogeT wrote: I think zerg had a good shot with going some muta into super fast hive and mass ling, to fend off this tank / vessel push with cracklings and follow up swarm. This has worked great, but Flash has yet again adapted and now upon seeing that zerg is not making many / any lurkers he doesn't make any or very few tanks and pushes out with 3 medics / 12 marine / 1-2 vessels to deny zergs 3rd before cracklings are out.
On April 09 2018 01:41 yubo56 wrote: It's like a breadth first search of strategies over time. Each time, a new strategy comes up that does better vs the currently popular strategies, but every time it rotates in it's explored to far more depth than previous times. Pretty good state for the game to be in, shows that the tree of viable decisions is both broad and deep
On April 08 2018 21:33 noname_ wrote: I`ve been doing these kind of openings since ages, I still remember Shaman doing it flawlessy 15 years ago. Sure the maps are changing, sure optimiziations are happening, but these are only trends nevertheless. Just like chess openings: they come and go, they have some inherent advantages/disadvantages on short and long terms, but you can always use another one. I found it funny when the best player does something new, in an instant it becomes a new trend like it would change the mu forever (I`m aware it does change things indeed to a degree), but I think that`s not because it`s so effective, it`s because it`s new.
Of course you were.. but believe me it was extreamly basic these days. Of course people were making mines / speed vulture / wraith / drop into 5 rax tank vessel push.. but all the details are different, not mentioning Flash is going for a cloak wraith defence, super fast vessel to fend off muta.. mass vulture to keep the map control.. and all those micro details that make it way different than what it was.
Of course you could say well I've also been making 8 SCVs and depot on 9 since 1998, so kinda game hasn't developed further than that, but the devil is in the detail.
On April 08 2018 21:33 noname_ wrote: I`ve been doing these kind of openings since ages, I still remember Shaman doing it flawlessy 15 years ago. Sure the maps are changing, sure optimiziations are happening, but these are only trends nevertheless. Just like chess openings: they come and go, they have some inherent advantages/disadvantages on short and long terms, but you can always use another one. I found it funny when the best player does something new, in an instant it becomes a new trend like it would change the mu forever (I`m aware it does change things indeed to a degree), but I think that`s not because it`s so effective, it`s because it`s new.
Of course you were.. but believe me it was extreamly basic these days. Of course people were making mines / speed vulture / wraith / drop into 5 rax tank vessel push.. but all the details are different, not mentioning Flash is going for a cloak wraith defence, super fast vessel to fend off muta.. mass vulture to keep the map control.. and all those micro details that make it way different than what it was.
Of course you could say well I've also been making 8 SCVs and depot on 9 since 1998, so kinda game hasn't developed further than that, but the devil is in the detail.
Exaclty. I didn`t meant to imply it is the same basic stuff. It is probably so refined by Flash and alike, that there are details even we don`t see.
On April 08 2018 21:33 noname_ wrote: I`ve been doing these kind of openings since ages, I still remember Shaman doing it flawlessy 15 years ago. Sure the maps are changing, sure optimiziations are happening, but these are only trends nevertheless. Just like chess openings: they come and go, they have some inherent advantages/disadvantages on short and long terms, but you can always use another one. I found it funny when the best player does something new, in an instant it becomes a new trend like it would change the mu forever (I`m aware it does change things indeed to a degree), but I think that`s not because it`s so effective, it`s because it`s new.
Of course you were.. but believe me it was extreamly basic these days. Of course people were making mines / speed vulture / wraith / drop into 5 rax tank vessel push.. but all the details are different, not mentioning Flash is going for a cloak wraith defence, super fast vessel to fend off muta.. mass vulture to keep the map control.. and all those micro details that make it way different than what it was.
Of course you could say well I've also been making 8 SCVs and depot on 9 since 1998, so kinda game hasn't developed further than that, but the devil is in the detail.
On April 08 2018 21:33 noname_ wrote: I`ve been doing these kind of openings since ages, I still remember Shaman doing it flawlessy 15 years ago. Sure the maps are changing, sure optimiziations are happening, but these are only trends nevertheless. Just like chess openings: they come and go, they have some inherent advantages/disadvantages on short and long terms, but you can always use another one. I found it funny when the best player does something new, in an instant it becomes a new trend like it would change the mu forever (I`m aware it does change things indeed to a degree), but I think that`s not because it`s so effective, it`s because it`s new.
Of course you were.. but believe me it was extreamly basic these days. Of course people were making mines / speed vulture / wraith / drop into 5 rax tank vessel push.. but all the details are different, not mentioning Flash is going for a cloak wraith defence, super fast vessel to fend off muta.. mass vulture to keep the map control.. and all those micro details that make it way different than what it was.
Of course you could say well I've also been making 8 SCVs and depot on 9 since 1998, so kinda game hasn't developed further than that, but the devil is in the detail.
When is cloaked Wraith defense good? ^^
When you know you wont have a vessel with irradiate in time.
On January 20 2018 04:00 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'm genuinely thinking that zerg has some allin options involving mass hydra and queens for broodling that should beat this. I just have a hard time seeing terran get sufficient marine production in time to hold the allin without any tanks for defense after opening with 1/1/1.
This is genius. I completely agree. There's a timing window when terran should only have a few tanks(like 2 maybe 3?), and is mainly relying on mines to delay pushes. With enough focus on clearing mines while queens build energy it should be somewhat easy to crush terran if they do the standard play. Especially if you happen to pull of a small distracting drop or something like this. The problem is though, you know a player like flash would notice the variations and adapt. That's what makes him so good. I have a feeling a player at flashes level would scout the differences and cut vulture production earlier in favor of more tanks.
Flash really perfected Terran vs Zerg, as best we've seen in modern day. A much more sophisticated analysis of his timings and resource-expenditure decisions would create a more thoughtful databse. 1-1-1 isn't really broken down that well for the average D player to understand. Terran vs Zerg basics dictate fast +1 weapons and +1armor, and terran is safe to pressure zerg with 4-6 medics and 24 marines or so. If terran macros properly this is easily achievable at 8-10 minutes plus turrents to defend for muta. Quick Science vessel and Irradiate and Siege mode can seal the game. There are so many ways to Ace a zerg in TvZ using bio and really give them no chance, as well as so many ways to fuck up and allow them to kill you with overpowered muta ling or lurker/ ultralisk. %2B1 5 Rax I think this is a good guide to a flash-approved strategy tvz. Here is a really nice game of Flash playing TvZ Here is a really nicely played game as well: As well as this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJGDqW5wn5g/ And this one: These game don't show first person build order but you can get a sense of timings and flashs spending is always perfect, utilizing the really powerful 3-tank-unsieged and vessel combo to win all of these matches quite early and effortlessly. Here is an excellent game by Flash where he somehow macros so much to get off 2 base what most terran armys would look like after getting 4 base or even more: A more detailed observer would be helpful as the skycam kind of focuses only on zerg probably assuming flash will get the W as he does. Alleh KT!
On April 08 2018 21:33 noname_ wrote: I`ve been doing these kind of openings since ages, I still remember Shaman doing it flawlessy 15 years ago. Sure the maps are changing, sure optimiziations are happening, but these are only trends nevertheless. Just like chess openings: they come and go, they have some inherent advantages/disadvantages on short and long terms, but you can always use another one. I found it funny when the best player does something new, in an instant it becomes a new trend like it would change the mu forever (I`m aware it does change things indeed to a degree), but I think that`s not because it`s so effective, it`s because it`s new.
What are you talking about man. Shaman doing it "flawlessy" 15 years ago. Do you have any idea how ignorant you sound? It's actually not at all like chess openings because the multiple layers of multitasking/micro differences, build adjustments on the fly based on scouting, building placement, perfectly timed scv pulls to repair key buildings, and more. All of which have evolved hugely over the 15+ years the game has been out.
Sense you want to talk about things you find funny, what I find funny is when someone who really has no idea what they are talking about acts like they are a knowledgeable veteran of this very complex game. You clearly lack the knowledge to appreciate the subtlety and the extremely high level of play required to pull off flash's version of this build. A player 15 years ago couldn't even hope to pull it off in today's high level environment. Even today, studying flash's play closely it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to pull of flash's 1/1/1 against high level opponents for 99% of players.
The fact that you say you've been "doing these kind of openings for ages" is ridiculous. Yes I know we aren't supposed to flame people. But damn man, you need a little searing. There is so much more to what flash is doing than simply building a barracks , a fact , and a starport. Then making some vults with mines and a wraith. It's not a "trend" it's the best player starcraft has ever seen playing a very very difficult build at the highest possible level. A build that requires perfect defense, incredible game sense and micro. Something you seem to not only not appreciate, but to not even understand in the slightest. Most terrans, even on stream, aren't using his build.
Not only that, your argument is in itself a contradiction. You say yourself its not new at all (apparently the almighty Shaman has been doing it perfectly for 15 years ...which is why he has so many titles right?). Then you go on to say its only good because its new. Hmm a strange paradox.
If memory serves correctly, one of his akas should be sas.non, which would mean he isn't what one would think of as newb. I don't think being a triggered fanboy does help your point here, as his argument isn't that far off and personally, I'd trust him more than a random person with a lot of posts on this page, but nothing else to show.
I think it's easy to miss his point, but he has one and he has explained himself in his next post. It's basically that the opening philosophy is the same, you have those rax-fac-port at the same rough timings (rough in SC terms), but it's the nuances and small adjustments that make it perfect and relevant today. So it's the same basic idea with a million tweaks and it's still viable thanks to them. Which is what the rest of us are thinking, he just put emphasis on that he remembered the opening being used long ago. It's quite amazing from a veteran's point of view, I would imagine. Please don't trigger yourself that badly.
Here is an excellent game by Flash where he somehow macros so much to get off 2 base what most terran armys would look like after getting 4 base or even more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRCPlDJjIiU
This game also stuck out in my mind. It's all about 23:21
On April 14 2018 18:14 TaardadAiel wrote: I think it's easy to miss his point, but he has one and he has explained himself in his next post. It's basically that the opening philosophy is the same, you have those rax-fac-port at the same rough timings (rough in SC terms), but it's the nuances and small adjustments that make it perfect and relevant today. So it's the same basic idea with a million tweaks and it's still viable thanks to them. Which is what the rest of us are thinking, he just put emphasis on that he remembered the opening being used long ago. It's quite amazing from a veteran's point of view, I would imagine. Please don't trigger yourself that badly.
On April 14 2018 17:48 GeckoXp wrote: If memory serves correctly, one of his akas should be sas.non, which would mean he isn't what one would think of as newb. I don't think being a triggered fanboy does help your point here, as his argument isn't that far off and personally, I'd trust him more than a random person with a lot of posts on this page, but nothing else to show.
Your points are clearly much better than mine? The fact that he isn't a newb, and just vaguely saying his argument has merit without saying why.
It's not even relevant but how exactly am I random and he has a lot a show? I'm genuinely just curious about this.
I'm not a fanboy. I just don't like nonsense. I've played this game a very long time at a decently high level and I won't let someone say someone perfected a build 15 years ago. Not because I think he's a newb, but because I know it's impossible.
Here is an excellent game by Flash where he somehow macros so much to get off 2 base what most terran armys would look like after getting 4 base or even more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRCPlDJjIiU
This game also stuck out in my mind. It's all about 23:21
Haha i agree. So much ownage. It's games like this that make you say, "thank god someone plays the game at that high of a level so i don't have to". Just looking at that makes my eyes roll in their sockets. Type-b was just cannon fodder.
EPT
%2B1 5 Rax
