EPTScvs take 12 hydra volleys to kill which is why he failed to break the ramp (he was also fighting uphill against the miss chance). I think a muta switch would of been better than queens and a fast hive. Flash would of probably gone cloaked wraiths (he scouted with the vult drop and would of adjusted) but this is costly with a 1 base economy, Flash had few rines, no turrets, no academy, no stim, no range, and the wraiths wouldnt be useful offensively with how late they would be.
[D] Flash's 1-1-1 Variation - Page 3
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NotGood-
United States134 Posts
Scvs take 12 hydra volleys to kill which is why he failed to break the ramp (he was also fighting uphill against the miss chance). I think a muta switch would of been better than queens and a fast hive. Flash would of probably gone cloaked wraiths (he scouted with the vult drop and would of adjusted) but this is costly with a 1 base economy, Flash had few rines, no turrets, no academy, no stim, no range, and the wraiths wouldnt be useful offensively with how late they would be. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On February 06 2018 05:18 StylishVODs wrote: If you do everything right you can defend it, but its really hard. Obviously this is Flash's specialty, and it's one of the things that make him so damn fun to watch. It's cool to see him pull TvZ toward his unique strength after all this time. I get that not everyone finds it that interesting, but if you do, it's just a thing to behold. One of the things that hooked me back in the day was watching Flash winning TvP on the original Medusa. I believe at one point, he was 7-1 and all other Terran were 7-35 or something ... this was before they modified the map and made it Neo Medusa. That map pushed his defensive instincts to the limits and was a perfect environment for showcasing his ability to do something no other player could imitate. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1717 Posts
On February 06 2018 05:18 StylishVODs wrote: If you do everything right you can defend it, but its really hard. Saving this for when zergs start screaming imba and tesagi | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1558 Posts
On February 06 2018 05:18 StylishVODs wrote: Most likely zergs will attempt some sort of all in. Mass lings, few muta tech switch lurk/ling bust etc. This builds weakness is that you actually have quite few units early. If you do everything right you can defend it, but its really hard. flash highlighted in this recent video on the build's relative weakness vs 18 hatch muta, where the zerg does timing with mass lings and 8 muta while keeping terran in blind with 8 mutalisks so terran can't clearly see if zerg is droning up or making lings. Flash said that since he doesn't like to play too safe and make himself disadvantaged for no reason, he is reluctant to put up 3 turrets beside his rax, as it loses out on scv production. Due to that, he needs to defend with wraiths and turret, but that gets rid of any scouting opportunity due to 1/1/1 delaying scans for very long time. That means that terran doesn't know what tech path zerg is going or if he is doing timing. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On February 08 2018 13:20 jinjin5000 wrote: flash highlighted in this recent video on the build's relative weakness vs 18 hatch muta, where the zerg does timing with mass lings and 8 muta while keeping terran in blind with 8 mutalisks so terran can't clearly see if zerg is droning up or making lings. Flash said that since he doesn't like to play too safe and make himself disadvantaged for no reason, he is reluctant to put up 3 turrets beside his rax, as it loses out on scv production. Due to that, he needs to defend with wraiths and turret, but that gets rid of any scouting opportunity due to 1/1/1 delaying scans for very long time. That means that terran doesn't know what tech path zerg is going or if he is doing timing. Sounds reasonable. Personally I feel that the build can afford some sort of economic disadvantage given the tech-path advantage. Your initial wraith will always get the scout, but after that it's hard to see what zerg does. I think terrans will go for safer play dispite the economical disadvantage due to this. Cut one scv here, and one more there, and suddely you have another turret + bunker without cutting the vessel count. | ||
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Tempest99
53 Posts
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tankgirl
Canada523 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
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noname_
468 Posts
I found it funny when the best player does something new, in an instant it becomes a new trend like it would change the mu forever (I`m aware it does change things indeed to a degree), but I think that`s not because it`s so effective, it`s because it`s new. | ||
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yubo56
690 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
On April 08 2018 20:42 kogeT wrote: I think zerg had a good shot with going some muta into super fast hive and mass ling, to fend off this tank / vessel push with cracklings and follow up swarm. This has worked great, but Flash has yet again adapted and now upon seeing that zerg is not making many / any lurkers he doesn't make any or very few tanks and pushes out with 3 medics / 12 marine / 1-2 vessels to deny zergs 3rd before cracklings are out. Nice gosu input | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2760 Posts
On April 09 2018 01:41 yubo56 wrote: It's like a breadth first search of strategies over time. Each time, a new strategy comes up that does better vs the currently popular strategies, but every time it rotates in it's explored to far more depth than previous times. Pretty good state for the game to be in, shows that the tree of viable decisions is both broad and deep I like this perspective, very nice worded. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
On April 08 2018 21:33 noname_ wrote: I`ve been doing these kind of openings since ages, I still remember Shaman doing it flawlessy 15 years ago. Sure the maps are changing, sure optimiziations are happening, but these are only trends nevertheless. Just like chess openings: they come and go, they have some inherent advantages/disadvantages on short and long terms, but you can always use another one. I found it funny when the best player does something new, in an instant it becomes a new trend like it would change the mu forever (I`m aware it does change things indeed to a degree), but I think that`s not because it`s so effective, it`s because it`s new. Of course you were.. but believe me it was extreamly basic these days. Of course people were making mines / speed vulture / wraith / drop into 5 rax tank vessel push.. but all the details are different, not mentioning Flash is going for a cloak wraith defence, super fast vessel to fend off muta.. mass vulture to keep the map control.. and all those micro details that make it way different than what it was. Of course you could say well I've also been making 8 SCVs and depot on 9 since 1998, so kinda game hasn't developed further than that, but the devil is in the detail. | ||
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noname_
468 Posts
On April 09 2018 17:47 kogeT wrote: Of course you were.. but believe me it was extreamly basic these days. Of course people were making mines / speed vulture / wraith / drop into 5 rax tank vessel push.. but all the details are different, not mentioning Flash is going for a cloak wraith defence, super fast vessel to fend off muta.. mass vulture to keep the map control.. and all those micro details that make it way different than what it was. Of course you could say well I've also been making 8 SCVs and depot on 9 since 1998, so kinda game hasn't developed further than that, but the devil is in the detail. Exaclty. I didn`t meant to imply it is the same basic stuff. It is probably so refined by Flash and alike, that there are details even we don`t see. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
On April 09 2018 17:47 kogeT wrote: Of course you were.. but believe me it was extreamly basic these days. Of course people were making mines / speed vulture / wraith / drop into 5 rax tank vessel push.. but all the details are different, not mentioning Flash is going for a cloak wraith defence, super fast vessel to fend off muta.. mass vulture to keep the map control.. and all those micro details that make it way different than what it was. Of course you could say well I've also been making 8 SCVs and depot on 9 since 1998, so kinda game hasn't developed further than that, but the devil is in the detail. When is cloaked Wraith defense good? ^^ | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
When you know you wont have a vessel with irradiate in time. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 20 2018 04:00 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'm genuinely thinking that zerg has some allin options involving mass hydra and queens for broodling that should beat this. I just have a hard time seeing terran get sufficient marine production in time to hold the allin without any tanks for defense after opening with 1/1/1. This is genius. I completely agree. There's a timing window when terran should only have a few tanks(like 2 maybe 3?), and is mainly relying on mines to delay pushes. With enough focus on clearing mines while queens build energy it should be somewhat easy to crush terran if they do the standard play. Especially if you happen to pull of a small distracting drop or something like this. The problem is though, you know a player like flash would notice the variations and adapt. That's what makes him so good. I have a feeling a player at flashes level would scout the differences and cut vulture production earlier in favor of more tanks. | ||
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