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TLADT24920 Posts
On January 17 2017 21:40 trutaCz wrote:
No, 4-5 sunkens vs 5rax +1 with 4 medics is not enough to hold. Also JD's muta micro was on point. He didnt lose any game because of muta micro...
I don't remember how many medics that he had tbh, I just remember it was a manageable size especially if he soaks some damage with zerglings. Regardless, delaying the lurkers hurt him in the end so it wasn't even the mutalisks. Just hard to see what can be done when you are up against someone who macros as well as Flash does 
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On January 17 2017 21:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:08 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:On January 17 2017 21:05 iamho wrote:
Wonder why JD cancelled his first hydra den.. accident? almost certainly, i saw that too. Strange no comment from tastosis. was that a hydra den or evo or 4th hatch btw? surely it was a den?
Wasn't fourth hatch, the footprint on the minimap was for a small building.
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On January 17 2017 21:40 usopsama wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad? I don't think it has ever worked against Flash when he goes 5 rax.
It definitely does, watch Flash's stream and how other Zergs deal with it (Effort, Hero etc). You just can't afford to make any mistakes.
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Flash just walked all over him if he didn't do any fancy cheese strat is what I saw. Mutas apparently don't work and Flash in game 4 played/reacted like some d terran player on iccup. He saw hydras coming from halfway across, no bunker? Marines felt like forever popping out as well *adjusts tinfoil hat
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On January 17 2017 21:38 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:37 thezanursic wrote:On January 17 2017 21:35 gngfn wrote:On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad? The TvZ early game is just different now. You can't really win with overwhelming muta micro alone; you have to use mutas and lings together to force the Terran army to reposition constantly, the goal being to bait it into a bad position or configuration that lets the mutas and lings kill a chunk of the army. Jaedong probably hasn't been playing long enough to have a sense of the best way to do that yet, but if anyone can figure it out he can. I don't know, it feels rather that Muta micro has gotten worse, and it makes sense in a way. Zergs would use a lot of their practice time on UMS working on their muta micro, now that the players mostly stream, they rather play games than practice their muta micro exclusively. I think the metagame is being dictated by the environment, in this particular streaming environment, players more easily focus and develop non-mutalisk micro skills. I seriously doubt Stream watchers would watch 3-4 hours of Muta UMS per day Very well put. I agree with this.
Yeah, in a way it's sad, on the other hand it's a new chapter in Brood War's history.
I also miss Proleague and the team structure, because we are less likely to see map specific strategies, and strategies refined to the absolute T. This could be mitigated if Afreeca Starleague decides to put in a few crazy maps, and by crazy I mean crazy. I don't necessarily think it would be bad if we got a Plasma, Baekmagoji, Troy, Outsider or Arkanoid. I think something is lost if we don't have such a map ever again.
Damien is a fine map, but it's very much like 20 maps we've seen before.
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On January 17 2017 21:38 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Question guys, are these games more or less norm for broodwars tvz?
Not so much the crazy builds but yes, TvZ is broodwar is generally very back and forth, intense and all over the place. It's regarded the king of match ups by most people I think. If you want to see some insane TvZs, grab some old KeSPA games on youtube, involving jaedong/zero/soulkey as zerg and Fantasy/Flash/Light/Hwasin as terran. Obviously there are a lot more but those combinations ended up in insane games a lot of times.
On January 17 2017 21:37 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Nice event! I hope they do this again. Are there any plans for the future?
There is still the finals coming up. And ASL 3 got announced irrc.
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On January 17 2017 21:44 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:40 trutaCz wrote:
No, 4-5 sunkens vs 5rax +1 with 4 medics is not enough to hold. Also JD's muta micro was on point. He didnt lose any game because of muta micro... I don't remember how many medics that he had tbh, I just remember it was a manageable size especially if he soaks some damage with zerglings. Regardless, delaying the lurkers hurt him in the end so it wasn't even the mutalisks. Just hard to see what can be done when you are up against someone who macros as well as Flash does
But i know how many medics he had and as i tell you even with zerglings you need to have like exactly perfect engagement sunken + zerglings vs mm and its a risk which may cost you a game to kill 10 scvs. Zerg can't play that way
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Flash: It was hard. It was hard preparing for this. It was hard when I lost the first game. It was hard when I lost the fourth game. But, I didn't lose my mental focus. I think that's why I won the last game."
Flash:" I know many people dislike TvT finals. But, I will show what apex TvT looks like in the finals"
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On January 17 2017 21:40 classicyellow83 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:39 shall_burn wrote:
eh so JD lost, feels bad, man.
Will he fight Best for the 3rd place? no
So there is only 1st place in this tournament? I'm not particularly aware of the rules.
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On January 17 2017 21:44 Exosus wrote:
Kinda feels like Zerg is behind by default and has to get something done before being able to win. Is it possible that Terran is actually op against Zerg? Jaedong had so many beautiful moves and flash just kinda massed M&Ms.. Sure his timings, positionings and micro was awesome but so was Jaedong's. I dunno maybe broodwar has been figured out now and it favors certain races after all.
Zerg is weaker before Hive tech and the matchup revolves around Zerg delaying Terran as much as possible to get to 3 base and Hive tech. And no Jaedong's micro was not good enough, you can't afford a single mistake or indecisiveness. Watch Hero vs Last in the group stages on how to play as Zerg vs 5 rax +1.
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On January 17 2017 21:40 trutaCz wrote:
No, 4-5 sunkens vs 5rax +1 with 4 medics is not enough to hold. Also JD's muta micro was on point. He didnt lose any game because of muta micro...
Yeah, I mean I'm trying to analyze what happened. And I say this with full caveat that I come from SC2. But looking back at the individual games, Flash won simply on errors by Jaedong while holding on to norm TvZ builds and taking full advantage of Terran's strengths. In his two loses, Flash was obviously outplayed and outstrategized by insane almost-perfect game in game 1 and a wonky crazy strategy in game 4. I now understand why bw fans go crazy over these players. Sad that they cant carry it over to SC2.
Anyway, are there any scheduled or planned future events for famous players like this one? I think this event is a good indicator for corporations that there is business to be made for bw. Ahem, Samsung? LG? CJ Entus? Do it!
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TLADT24920 Posts
On January 17 2017 21:48 trutaCz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:44 BigFan wrote:On January 17 2017 21:40 trutaCz wrote:
No, 4-5 sunkens vs 5rax +1 with 4 medics is not enough to hold. Also JD's muta micro was on point. He didnt lose any game because of muta micro... I don't remember how many medics that he had tbh, I just remember it was a manageable size especially if he soaks some damage with zerglings. Regardless, delaying the lurkers hurt him in the end so it wasn't even the mutalisks. Just hard to see what can be done when you are up against someone who macros as well as Flash does But i know how many medics he had and as i tell you even with zerglings you need to have like exactly perfect engagement sunken + zerglings vs mm and its a risk which may cost you a game to kill 10 scvs. Zerg can't play that way
fair enough, just stated that was the reason for my first comment ^^
On January 17 2017 21:49 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:44 Exosus wrote:
Kinda feels like Zerg is behind by default and has to get something done before being able to win. Is it possible that Terran is actually op against Zerg? Jaedong had so many beautiful moves and flash just kinda massed M&Ms.. Sure his timings, positionings and micro was awesome but so was Jaedong's. I dunno maybe broodwar has been figured out now and it favors certain races after all. Zerg is weaker before Hive tech and the matchup revolves around Zerg delaying Terran as much as possible to get to 3 base and Hive tech. And no Jaedong's micro was not good enough, you can't afford a single mistake or indecisiveness. Watch Hero vs Last in the group stages on how to play as Zerg vs 5 rax +1.
that group stage game was really good to watch. Really solid game from hero and Last has been playing great these days (and most days actually lol).
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On January 17 2017 21:44 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:37 thezanursic wrote:On January 17 2017 21:35 gngfn wrote:On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad? The TvZ early game is just different now. You can't really win with overwhelming muta micro alone; you have to use mutas and lings together to force the Terran army to reposition constantly, the goal being to bait it into a bad position or configuration that lets the mutas and lings kill a chunk of the army. Jaedong probably hasn't been playing long enough to have a sense of the best way to do that yet, but if anyone can figure it out he can. I don't know, it feels rather that Muta micro has gotten worse, and it makes sense in a way. Zergs would use a lot of their practice time on UMS working on their muta micro, now that the players mostly stream, they rather play games than practice their muta micro exclusively. I think the metagame is being dictated by the environment, in this particular streaming environment, players more easily focus and develop non-mutalisk micro skills. I seriously doubt Stream watchers would watch 3-4 hours of Muta UMS per day I agree that muta micro is also probably not as good as it was, but I wouldn't blame streaming. Flash and Jaedong both practiced a lot off stream for this, so they could have played UMS all they wanted. I'd guess it's more that the latency of playing on Fish is still not quite the same as LAN play and every frame matters for muta micro.
You can play UMS in offline mode.
No, I would blame streaming actually, yes playing offline for 2-3 days beforehand, might be enough to refine a few strategies for each map, but it takes a lot longer than that to work on your mechanics. You can't just say, ohh I'm gonna do 3 hatch vs Flash, I'm going to use the next 3 days to get my mutalisk micro back on par.
I think if anything it might be possible that we will see Zergs with less popular streams and more offline practice gravitate towards mutalisk play, and popular streamers like Jaedong, Effort, etc might gravitate towards Lurker play. I could definitely see an "unknown" as in one of the lesser 3rd rate Zergs in the scene currently, flip the meta with amazing mutalisk micro and dominate Terrans, because he had the opportunity to focus on Mutalisk micro, such a Zerg would also dominate other Zergs because of the importance of Mutalisk micro.
Come to think of it, it might be possible that Zergs are struggling in ZvT and making ZvZ skill level worse precisely because there is less focus on Mutalisk Micro.
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On January 17 2017 21:44 Exosus wrote:
Kinda feels like Zerg is behind by default and has to get something done before being able to win. Is it possible that Terran is actually op against Zerg? Jaedong had so many beautiful moves and flash just kinda massed M&Ms.. Sure his timings, positionings and micro was awesome but so was Jaedong's. I dunno maybe broodwar has been figured out now and it favors certain races after all.
I kinda agree. Flash just massed MM and even after losing strategic small battles and vessels in game 3, he still won after zerg has practically all out on units and micro. By the way, anyone knowledgeable knows what is the winrate for races in major tournaments?
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I am not sad because JD lost. Against all expectations, he got to game 5. This game 1 was probably the best display of Jaedong's skill and the helplessness a normal player feels against him (even Flash) that makes me hopeful that JD will eventually trump Flash with just a little more practice.
Imagine JD's genius with enough practice to get to Effort's level.
I think ASL3 will actually even out the gap between JD and Flash where you cannot tell the clear favorite.
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On January 17 2017 21:49 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:44 Exosus wrote:
Kinda feels like Zerg is behind by default and has to get something done before being able to win. Is it possible that Terran is actually op against Zerg? Jaedong had so many beautiful moves and flash just kinda massed M&Ms.. Sure his timings, positionings and micro was awesome but so was Jaedong's. I dunno maybe broodwar has been figured out now and it favors certain races after all. Zerg is weaker before Hive tech and the matchup revolves around Zerg delaying Terran as much as possible to get to 3 base and Hive tech. And no Jaedong's micro was not good enough, you can't afford a single mistake or indecisiveness. Watch Hero vs Last in the group stages on how to play as Zerg vs 5 rax +1.
You compare a game played on circuit breakers when hero abused the bridge to stop 5rax to eye of the storm which is an open map....
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Ehh I feel in all 5 games, flash was the better player. In game 1, he did everything to try and recover, but jaedong already did too much damage and was playing from the front. Initially it looked like jaedong may struggle a little with the relentless harassments, but his advantage was too much.
Game 4 flash almost held the all in. Was unlucky with the map spawn which loss him a crucial Medic. That jaedong barely broke through showed how flash could have dealt with the all in if just one or 2 things went his way.
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On January 17 2017 21:47 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:38 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Question guys, are these games more or less norm for broodwars tvz? Not so much the crazy builds but yes, TvZ is broodwar is generally very back and forth, intense and all over the place. It's regarded the king of match ups by most people I think. If you want to see some insane TvZs, grab some old KeSPA games on youtube, involving jaedong/zero/soulkey as zerg and Fantasy/Flash/Light/Hwasin as terran. Obviously there are a lot more but those combinations ended up in insane games a lot of times. Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:37 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Nice event! I hope they do this again. Are there any plans for the future? There is still the finals coming up. And ASL 3 got announced irrc.
Now that's more like it!
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On January 17 2017 21:54 trutaCz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:49 Dante08 wrote:On January 17 2017 21:44 Exosus wrote:
Kinda feels like Zerg is behind by default and has to get something done before being able to win. Is it possible that Terran is actually op against Zerg? Jaedong had so many beautiful moves and flash just kinda massed M&Ms.. Sure his timings, positionings and micro was awesome but so was Jaedong's. I dunno maybe broodwar has been figured out now and it favors certain races after all. Zerg is weaker before Hive tech and the matchup revolves around Zerg delaying Terran as much as possible to get to 3 base and Hive tech. And no Jaedong's micro was not good enough, you can't afford a single mistake or indecisiveness. Watch Hero vs Last in the group stages on how to play as Zerg vs 5 rax +1. You compare a game played on circuit breakers when hero abused the bridge to stop 5rax to eye of the storm which is an open map....
Nowadays you almost cannot hold a third where you cannot block a ramp with one lurker egg.
I think the maps are just bad for ZvT this tournament. I would have preferred FS over CB just because of the wider ramp. FS is at least less volatile for Zerg when getting the third up.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I think it's silly that some people are dismissing all of Jaedong's wins as cheesy. or that flash just walked all over him. He dominated game 1 in great fashion with a well thought out strategy and even in the games he lost, it was never him just outright folding. That game on demian, he defended flash's push several times and had great positioning etc... Flash just played really well and decided to actually get bunkers and be extra safe etc... otherwise that frontal lurker bust could've done a lot more damage and we could've potentially seen JD take the game (again, depends but its still a possibility).
That game on benzene was sick. You can attribute it a bit to Flash misreading and thinking lurkers or just trying to get a late bunker but Jaedong had such guts to go with such a strat that can be read and defended against. Flash almost defended as well but Jaedong's target firing and decisions paid off. Even this last game, delaying the lurker den and losing that third was the biggest blow. If he held that, the game would've been different for sure (dunno if he couldn't taken it but regardless).
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EPT
