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On January 17 2017 21:31 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:29 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:20 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 17 2017 21:18 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:14 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 17 2017 21:12 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:10 FlaShFTW wrote:
Tastosis saying FlaSh barely eeked out that win, but he smashed JD. cmon tastosis i know you want to hype it up but dude, it wasn't even close. Considering that we would have had a game if lurker aspect finished a few seconds earlier I think this statement is pretty accurate to be honest. FlaSh still kills at least one egg to run into the base of JD. no way that a good ling surround can happen with marines in that position, and FlaSh's anti-muta micro was on point would have cleaned them up too. There's a reason +1 5rax is the best build against 3 hatch muta for this exact reason for the timing and the amount of marines you have out I know all that, Jaedong had a third hydra at his third though. Also consider that JD canceled his hydra den. That was a greedy/unlucky decision and got punished. dont know for sure if it was hydra den. might have been queens nest. Yes, that's true. I just checked the VOD and you can't see what he was building. However, he placed his hydra den 30 seconds after that action. 30 fucking seconds. I think it's easy to say this but as you know, the last game was intense. It's understandable that JD placed it a bit later. Having said that, my heart broke when I realized that the hydras weren't morphing. Kept hoping that maybe JD was just holding on until flash gets to the choke to morph them but alas  Biggest mistake was him leaving Flash's main instead of doing so much damage due to lack of turrets. That and delaying lurkers by even a bit. I'm sure he's beating himself up over it and so am I!
My heart broke too
But i think he had to leave Flash' main or else it would have been a basetrade and terran wins that one
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On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad?
The TvZ early game is just different now. You can't really win with overwhelming muta micro alone; you have to use mutas and lings together to force the Terran army to reposition constantly, the goal being to bait it into a bad position or configuration that lets the mutas and lings kill a chunk of the army. Jaedong probably hasn't been playing long enough to have a sense of the best way to do that yet, but if anyone can figure it out he can.
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On January 17 2017 21:13 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:08 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:On January 17 2017 21:08 Vuk_91 wrote:
When JD busted Flash's defense in the main, he should have canceled the third, build 5 sunks at his natural, and try to do as much damage with Mutas as possible. I agree. That would have put him even more behind. 5 rax pumps out marines quite quickly Flash just has to wait for 1 group for mnm to take back his main and JD would have cancelled his 3rd for a few scvs and maybe depots?
If you camp the barracks, there is no way for terran to get to 1 group of MnM. If he decides to go back with his main force, then you don't cancel the third so you're good either way.
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On January 17 2017 21:28 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:27 Zvoboo wrote:
Anyone uploaded the english vods with tastosis yet? Missed it live T_T You can go straight to the Youtube link in the OP and watch the recording of the broadcast. No need for separate VODs.
Didn´t notice that, thanks!
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United States10402 Posts
On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad?
against +1 5 rax and the terran is flash? no. every game jd goes mutas, he lost. just let that sink in.
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On January 17 2017 21:31 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:29 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:20 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 17 2017 21:18 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:14 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 17 2017 21:12 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:10 FlaShFTW wrote:
Tastosis saying FlaSh barely eeked out that win, but he smashed JD. cmon tastosis i know you want to hype it up but dude, it wasn't even close. Considering that we would have had a game if lurker aspect finished a few seconds earlier I think this statement is pretty accurate to be honest. FlaSh still kills at least one egg to run into the base of JD. no way that a good ling surround can happen with marines in that position, and FlaSh's anti-muta micro was on point would have cleaned them up too. There's a reason +1 5rax is the best build against 3 hatch muta for this exact reason for the timing and the amount of marines you have out I know all that, Jaedong had a third hydra at his third though. Also consider that JD canceled his hydra den. That was a greedy/unlucky decision and got punished. dont know for sure if it was hydra den. might have been queens nest. Yes, that's true. I just checked the VOD and you can't see what he was building. However, he placed his hydra den 30 seconds after that action. 30 fucking seconds. I think it's easy to say this but as you know, the last game was intense. It's understandable that JD placed it a bit later. Having said that, my heart broke when I realized that the hydras weren't morphing. Kept hoping that maybe JD was just holding on until flash gets to the choke to morph them but alas Biggest mistake was him leaving Flash's main instead of doing so much damage due to lack of turrets. That and delaying lurkers by even a bit. I'm sure he's beating himself up over it and so am I!
Yeah I know but this is Jaedong. He shouldn't make mistakes like that. I remember what a big jump my ZvT made when someone told me to build the hydra den and queens nest immediately after the mutas pop. It makes such a big difference to have lurkers and defilers earlier.
And he had to leave Flash's main. Flash would have crushed the 2 sunken defense at his nat. The game would have been over if he hadn't pulled back.
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Nice event! I hope they do this again. Are there any plans for the future?
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On January 17 2017 21:35 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad? The TvZ early game is just different now. You can't really win with overwhelming muta micro alone; you have to use mutas and lings together to force the Terran army to reposition constantly, the goal being to bait it into a bad position or configuration that lets the mutas and lings kill a chunk of the army. Jaedong probably hasn't been playing long enough to have a sense of the best way to do that yet, but if anyone can figure it out he can.
I don't know, it feels rather that Muta micro has gotten worse, and it makes sense in a way.
Zergs would use a lot of their practice time on UMS working on their muta micro, now that the players mostly stream, they rather play games than practice their muta micro exclusively.
I think the metagame is being dictated by the environment, in this particular streaming environment, players more easily focus and develop non-mutalisk micro skills. I seriously doubt Stream watchers would watch 3-4 hours of Muta UMS per day
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TLADT24920 Posts
On January 17 2017 21:34 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:31 BigFan wrote:On January 17 2017 21:29 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:20 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 17 2017 21:18 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:14 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 17 2017 21:12 Miragee wrote:On January 17 2017 21:10 FlaShFTW wrote:
Tastosis saying FlaSh barely eeked out that win, but he smashed JD. cmon tastosis i know you want to hype it up but dude, it wasn't even close. Considering that we would have had a game if lurker aspect finished a few seconds earlier I think this statement is pretty accurate to be honest. FlaSh still kills at least one egg to run into the base of JD. no way that a good ling surround can happen with marines in that position, and FlaSh's anti-muta micro was on point would have cleaned them up too. There's a reason +1 5rax is the best build against 3 hatch muta for this exact reason for the timing and the amount of marines you have out I know all that, Jaedong had a third hydra at his third though. Also consider that JD canceled his hydra den. That was a greedy/unlucky decision and got punished. dont know for sure if it was hydra den. might have been queens nest. Yes, that's true. I just checked the VOD and you can't see what he was building. However, he placed his hydra den 30 seconds after that action. 30 fucking seconds. I think it's easy to say this but as you know, the last game was intense. It's understandable that JD placed it a bit later. Having said that, my heart broke when I realized that the hydras weren't morphing. Kept hoping that maybe JD was just holding on until flash gets to the choke to morph them but alas Biggest mistake was him leaving Flash's main instead of doing so much damage due to lack of turrets. That and delaying lurkers by even a bit. I'm sure he's beating himself up over it and so am I! My heart broke too But i think he had to leave Flash' main or else it would have been a basetrade and terran wins that one
JD got up 4-5 sunkens at his natural when his mutas were in his main I think unless I'm mis- remembering. I think he could've held that considering flash's force was still tiny-ish and not enough medics to heal the marines.
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On January 17 2017 21:37 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:35 gngfn wrote:On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad? The TvZ early game is just different now. You can't really win with overwhelming muta micro alone; you have to use mutas and lings together to force the Terran army to reposition constantly, the goal being to bait it into a bad position or configuration that lets the mutas and lings kill a chunk of the army. Jaedong probably hasn't been playing long enough to have a sense of the best way to do that yet, but if anyone can figure it out he can. I don't know, it feels rather that Muta micro has gotten worse, and it makes sense in a way. Zergs would use a lot of their practice time on UMS working on their muta micro, now that the players mostly stream, they rather play games than practice their muta micro exclusively. I think the metagame is being dictated by the environment, in this particular streaming environment, players more easily focus and develop non-mutalisk micro skills. I seriously doubt Stream watchers would watch 3-4 hours of Muta UMS per day
Very well put. I agree with this.
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Question guys, are these games more or less norm for broodwars tvz?
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Didn't know Apollo commentated BW
Funny to listen to
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eh so JD lost, feels bad, man.
Will he fight Best for the 3rd place?
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On January 17 2017 21:36 Vuk_91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:13 Dante08 wrote:On January 17 2017 21:08 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:On January 17 2017 21:08 Vuk_91 wrote:
When JD busted Flash's defense in the main, he should have canceled the third, build 5 sunks at his natural, and try to do as much damage with Mutas as possible. I agree. That would have put him even more behind. 5 rax pumps out marines quite quickly Flash just has to wait for 1 group for mnm to take back his main and JD would have cancelled his 3rd for a few scvs and maybe depots? If you camp the barracks, there is no way for terran to get to 1 group of MnM. If he decides to go back with his main force, then you don't cancel the third so you're good either way.
2 turrets were already done at the barracks. Would have been really risky to commit the mutas in the base imo. There were 2 groups of mnm knocking on JD's nat and only 3 sunkens were done I believe.
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On January 17 2017 21:39 shall_burn wrote:
eh so JD lost, feels bad, man.
Will he fight Best for the 3rd place?
no
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On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad?
I don't think it has ever worked against Flash when he goes 5 rax.
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No, 4-5 sunkens vs 5rax +1 with 4 medics is not enough to hold. Also JD's muta micro was on point. He didnt lose any game because of muta micro...
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On January 17 2017 21:40 trutaCz wrote:
No, 4-5 sunkens vs 5rax +1 with 4 medics is not enough to hold. Also JD's muta micro was on point. He didnt lose any game because of muta micro...
And he didn't even have them up. JD was placing his creep colonies when Flash was already halfway to his base.
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On January 17 2017 21:37 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 21:35 gngfn wrote:On January 17 2017 21:31 ionONE wrote:
So muta builds dont work anymore (vs flash) , or was jd micro just bad? The TvZ early game is just different now. You can't really win with overwhelming muta micro alone; you have to use mutas and lings together to force the Terran army to reposition constantly, the goal being to bait it into a bad position or configuration that lets the mutas and lings kill a chunk of the army. Jaedong probably hasn't been playing long enough to have a sense of the best way to do that yet, but if anyone can figure it out he can. I don't know, it feels rather that Muta micro has gotten worse, and it makes sense in a way. Zergs would use a lot of their practice time on UMS working on their muta micro, now that the players mostly stream, they rather play games than practice their muta micro exclusively. I think the metagame is being dictated by the environment, in this particular streaming environment, players more easily focus and develop non-mutalisk micro skills. I seriously doubt Stream watchers would watch 3-4 hours of Muta UMS per day
I agree that muta micro is also probably not as good as it was, but I wouldn't blame streaming. Flash and Jaedong both practiced a lot off stream for this, so they could have played UMS all they wanted. I'd guess it's more that the latency of playing on Fish is still not quite the same as LAN play and every frame matters for muta micro.
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Kinda feels like Zerg is behind by default and has to get something done before being able to win. Is it possible that Terran is actually op against Zerg? Jaedong had so many beautiful moves and flash just kinda massed M&Ms.. Sure his timings, positionings and micro was awesome but so was Jaedong's. I dunno maybe broodwar has been figured out now and it favors certain races after all.
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EPT
