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Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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PantZerSHreCH
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden4 Posts
April 08 2012 23:46 GMT
#1501
I was watching the proleague grand finals today and,
+ Show Spoiler +
Hoejja played a very interesting game with more or less only lings, queens and defilers. I couldn't find any info on his build under the pvz section on liquipedia. So, does anyone know anything about it or is the build a "new" alternative to the 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra? Any info/experience on the build is appreciated!
"It's always a bad sign when they start speaking polish" Hacklebeast
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
April 09 2012 03:42 GMT
#1502
On April 09 2012 08:46 PantZerSHreCH wrote:
I was watching the proleague grand finals today and,
+ Show Spoiler +
Hoejja played a very interesting game with more or less only lings, queens and defilers. I couldn't find any info on his build under the pvz section on liquipedia. So, does anyone know anything about it or is the build a "new" alternative to the 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra? Any info/experience on the build is appreciated!


+ Show Spoiler +
It's an advanced build for 2 reasons. The first is that it involves tricking your opponent. hoejja had no simcity and few hydralisks before hive, so if best had gone for the +1 speedlot attack like every other protoss player he would have done a lot of damage. But he was so scared of the hydra bust that he stopped scouting with his corsairs and turtled up hard. If protoss played on auto pilot and done normal stuff, it would be very hard for a progamer to react just well enough to not lose right there, and borderline impossible for anyone else.

The second reason that it is an advanced build is it is very hard to control large numbers of cracklings. along with defiler abilities. Just 1a2a3a...ing won't cut it, and your average sc player can't even do that.

Best overreacted, and had lost the game as soon as he allowed hoejja to get crack unscouted. If he didn't panic and continued to be active with his corsairs (and they were +1 sairs which made the fact he did nothing with them even worse) he could have reacted properly and done a lot of damage before the hive finished.

shoutouts to gotunk for explaining the build to me
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1806 Posts
April 09 2012 05:34 GMT
#1503
On April 09 2012 08:46 PantZerSHreCH wrote:
I was watching the proleague grand finals today and,
+ Show Spoiler +
Hoejja played a very interesting game with more or less only lings, queens and defilers. I couldn't find any info on his build under the pvz section on liquipedia. So, does anyone know anything about it or is the build a "new" alternative to the 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra? Any info/experience on the build is appreciated!


+ Show Spoiler +
one of the key aspect that you might have missed when seeing that build was the initial low drone count that hoejja showed to best's corsair. this was intentional. after making 8 hydras, he immediately switched back to drones and basically forced best to stop making zeals and to start getting templar tech out. from here, best cannot afford to move out because he is still unsure of what type of units hoejja is making. hoejja was a little lucky in a sense that best was not as good with scouting and could get away with such an economy.

the second most important thing is the queens nest timing. he got the nest so early such that the lings were increasingly useful with swarms and plagues particularly at the time when best moves to get a large number of dragoons. he was playing very efficiently. the moment he starved best of a third gas while he had hive, there was absolutely no way best could capitalize because hoejja had the increasingly ability to abuse the damage and mobility of lings.

if you really want to use this, you would have to watch the game many times to see the mind games and how to make your timings proper.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1338 Posts
April 09 2012 08:36 GMT
#1504
Hmm I tried asking in the spl finals lr thread, but it was collecting posts so fast I don't think anyone saw it.

+ Show Spoiler +
Has anyone won 3 proleague finals (eg as a player on the winning team) before Bisu just did it?
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
April 09 2012 08:47 GMT
#1505
On April 09 2012 17:36 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Hmm I tried asking in the spl finals lr thread, but it was collecting posts so fast I don't think anyone saw it.

+ Show Spoiler +
Has anyone won 3 proleague finals (eg as a player on the winning team) before Bisu just did it?


+ Show Spoiler +
well there were other people on the 3 most recent skt championship teams besides bisu. Other than that SKT won 3 titles in a row 2005-2006, so all the players on those teams (midas, gorush, oov, kingdom, boxer ect).
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1338 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-09 13:20:14
April 09 2012 08:56 GMT
#1506
On April 09 2012 17:47 hacklebeast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 17:36 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Hmm I tried asking in the spl finals lr thread, but it was collecting posts so fast I don't think anyone saw it.

+ Show Spoiler +
Has anyone won 3 proleague finals (eg as a player on the winning team) before Bisu just did it?


+ Show Spoiler +
well there were other people on the 3 most recent skt championship teams besides bisu. Other than that SKT won 3 titles in a row 2005-2006, so all the players on those teams (midas, gorush, oov, kingdom, boxer ect).


+ Show Spoiler +
I actually meant the whole year overall proleague titles, eg not the minor R1, R2, winners league, stx cups and stuff, IIRC the current SKT squad has only won 2, Bisu only has 3 cos he was on MBC when they won that. I'm not sure if some of the older generation SKT guys have done it though
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
Puyi
Profile Joined November 2011
United States175 Posts
April 09 2012 16:10 GMT
#1507
how do a terran expand while playing tvz? i kno in tvp a terran can expand towards the protoss making it ez to slow push and have a tank line that defends their 3rd but how does it work in tvz?

should i expand towards the zerg or away from? or just take a corner base
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1338 Posts
April 09 2012 18:02 GMT
#1508
On April 10 2012 01:10 Puyi wrote:
how do a terran expand while playing tvz? i kno in tvp a terran can expand towards the protoss making it ez to slow push and have a tank line that defends their 3rd but how does it work in tvz?

should i expand towards the zerg or away from? or just take a corner base


Depends how you are TvZing, generally with bio you want to expand away, because you expect them to push you back with lurks/swarm, and you want to stop them before your nat, so if you expand towards them you have less space to back up before losing something important. With mech TvZ you are more likely to want to expand towards them as it's easier to defend with a static tank line.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
Jubinell
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
333 Posts
April 10 2012 08:36 GMT
#1509
What exactly does the shield upgrade do for protoss? Does it increase the max. shield value? Or does it increase shield natural recharge rate?
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1338 Posts
April 10 2012 08:43 GMT
#1510
On April 10 2012 17:36 Jubinell wrote:
What exactly does the shield upgrade do for protoss? Does it increase the max. shield value? Or does it increase shield natural recharge rate?


It reduces damage dealt to shields by 1, eg when a unupgraded zergling does damage to the shield it does 4 damage instead of 5 if the shield armour upgrade is increase.

Basically it's the same upgrade as armour, except it does it for shield instead of hp.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
Senth_Wallace
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden7 Posts
April 12 2012 07:21 GMT
#1511
I'm creating a SC:BW bot and will focus on TvT. I'm now creating the drop functionality and would want some help with what unit compositions are good when dropping. Some are probably less good at some times, so I want those that does most damage overall. Examples could be, 6Mar, 2Med; 1Tank, 4Mar; or 8Mar, 4Med, 1Tank for a drop with 2 dropships. I have no clue what is considered good, maybe almost all unit compositions work?

Another note, the drops will likely occur near enemy buildings where there are little or no enemy units, retreating is preferred to suicide missions.
xxpack09
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2160 Posts
April 12 2012 07:29 GMT
#1512
On April 12 2012 16:21 Senth_Wallace wrote:
I'm creating a SC:BW bot and will focus on TvT. I'm now creating the drop functionality and would want some help with what unit compositions are good when dropping. Some are probably less good at some times, so I want those that does most damage overall. Examples could be, 6Mar, 2Med; 1Tank, 4Mar; or 8Mar, 4Med, 1Tank for a drop with 2 dropships. I have no clue what is considered good, maybe almost all unit compositions work?

Another note, the drops will likely occur near enemy buildings where there are little or no enemy units, retreating is preferred to suicide missions.


If you're looking at only TvT, you should basically be ONLY using mech units (apart from a couple marines in the earlygame so you don't die). 4 vultures is the standard drop composition, but sometimes tanks are used too.
HaFnium
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United Kingdom1078 Posts
April 12 2012 11:12 GMT
#1513
On April 12 2012 16:21 Senth_Wallace wrote:
I'm creating a SC:BW bot and will focus on TvT. I'm now creating the drop functionality and would want some help with what unit compositions are good when dropping. Some are probably less good at some times, so I want those that does most damage overall. Examples could be, 6Mar, 2Med; 1Tank, 4Mar; or 8Mar, 4Med, 1Tank for a drop with 2 dropships. I have no clue what is considered good, maybe almost all unit compositions work?

Another note, the drops will likely occur near enemy buildings where there are little or no enemy units, retreating is preferred to suicide missions.


generally u dont drop bio units
vulture drops are good hoever, its hard for computer to micro, as you need to lay mines in good area and micro against untis
tank drops or goliath + tank drops would be the best imo
BW forever!
Vuk_91
Profile Joined September 2010
Serbia1690 Posts
April 13 2012 08:02 GMT
#1514
In ZvT on Fighting Spirit (I`m a zerg),if my opponent is in cross position,which expansion should I take as a 2nd expansion? (another main,or those 3,6,9,12 o clock bases? )
CaffeineFree-_-
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States712 Posts
April 13 2012 17:57 GMT
#1515
On April 12 2012 16:21 Senth_Wallace wrote:
I'm creating a SC:BW bot and will focus on TvT. I'm now creating the drop functionality and would want some help with what unit compositions are good when dropping. Some are probably less good at some times, so I want those that does most damage overall. Examples could be, 6Mar, 2Med; 1Tank, 4Mar; or 8Mar, 4Med, 1Tank for a drop with 2 dropships. I have no clue what is considered good, maybe almost all unit compositions work?

Another note, the drops will likely occur near enemy buildings where there are little or no enemy units, retreating is preferred to suicide missions.

Guys read the bold. 7 marine 1 medic has the best dps, I think even without stim. With stim def yes.
We say we love flowers, yet we pluck them. We say we love trees, yet we cut them down. And people still wonder why some are afraid when told they are loved
Bakuryu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany1065 Posts
April 13 2012 18:29 GMT
#1516
On April 13 2012 17:02 Vuk_91 wrote:
In ZvT on Fighting Spirit (I`m a zerg),if my opponent is in cross position,which expansion should I take as a 2nd expansion? (another main,or those 3,6,9,12 o clock bases? )


u take the main which is clockwise from your base.
Puyi
Profile Joined November 2011
United States175 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-14 00:23:59
April 14 2012 00:23 GMT
#1517
On April 14 2012 03:29 Bakuryu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2012 17:02 Vuk_91 wrote:
In ZvT on Fighting Spirit (I`m a zerg),if my opponent is in cross position,which expansion should I take as a 2nd expansion? (another main,or those 3,6,9,12 o clock bases? )


u take the main which is clockwise from your base.

is there any specific reason to this? also does this apply to other match ups like pvz pvt too? and does this rule apply to other 4player maps?
xxpack09
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2160 Posts
April 14 2012 00:45 GMT
#1518
On April 14 2012 02:57 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2012 16:21 Senth_Wallace wrote:
I'm creating a SC:BW bot and will focus on TvT. I'm now creating the drop functionality and would want some help with what unit compositions are good when dropping. Some are probably less good at some times, so I want those that does most damage overall. Examples could be, 6Mar, 2Med; 1Tank, 4Mar; or 8Mar, 4Med, 1Tank for a drop with 2 dropships. I have no clue what is considered good, maybe almost all unit compositions work?

Another note, the drops will likely occur near enemy buildings where there are little or no enemy units, retreating is preferred to suicide missions.

Guys read the bold. 7 marine 1 medic has the best dps, I think even without stim. With stim def yes.


Even getting M&M in TvT is just such a waste of resources though that he's better off not using dropships at all and investing that money into tank/wraith or something else actually useful
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1338 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-14 06:57:45
April 14 2012 06:56 GMT
#1519
On April 14 2012 09:23 Puyi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2012 03:29 Bakuryu wrote:
On April 13 2012 17:02 Vuk_91 wrote:
In ZvT on Fighting Spirit (I`m a zerg),if my opponent is in cross position,which expansion should I take as a 2nd expansion? (another main,or those 3,6,9,12 o clock bases? )


u take the main which is clockwise from your base.

is there any specific reason to this? also does this apply to other match ups like pvz pvt too? and does this rule apply to other 4player maps?


You do it because they(the terran) are likely to take their third as the base clockwise from their main (eg the natural way fighting spirit is set up).

So if you take the main anti-clockwise from you then you will actually be expanding towards their potential third.

The basic premise is that you want to expand away from them, or at least towards the least convenient place for them to get to.

So the clockwise rule does not apply to all 4 player maps, the best way to go about it is to imagine your the terran, and think 'To find the shortest push distance, where would I want them to expand to?' then don't expand there

The reason you take a main is because the main has a high ground ramp, which is relatively easy to hold with lurkers, and once you secure it, it becomes easier to take the nat later.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
.Sic.
Profile Joined February 2011
Korea (South)497 Posts
April 14 2012 09:37 GMT
#1520
How do you edit your TLPD?
Clan MvP Member | http://sc2ranks.com/kr/3273340/SicMvP
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