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Probemicro
3708 Posts
On May 04 2016 12:07 ppshchik wrote: 1 rax FE has become the cookie cutter opening on modern TvP? 1) its not on the vast majority of korean ladder 2) 99% of games are on FS, FS is a 4 player map 3) mondragon is great too | ||
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Jealous
10361 Posts
@Everyone that helped with VODs: I presented the Piano game today, I kinda procrastinated so I didn't have the time to get your replies and put them in. Thank you anyway for helping, I will look them up so you know your time wasn't wasted! | ||
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States347 Posts
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
On May 05 2016 07:15 Jealous wrote: I think FD is still the most popular opener. Didn't rax FE fall put of style a few years ago? Certainly seems that way. I think it might actually be Flash's influence that brought back rax FE a bit recently. Before that you could really mostly watch FDs in all variations on the Terrans' streams, for some almost exclusively. But I think especially Sea, maybe also Mong did use 1rax FE a lot throughout the recent years, so it was never really outdated. But Flash, from his first stream on, used that build en masse in TvP, maybe because that's just how he rolls, as he was confident that he could connect to his past after a while (rememer what a TvP-beast he was right until the end of the pro-scene). But he surely also tested the build a lot on nowadays Fish before even streaming, so if Flash says 1rax expo is still a thing, it is still a thing. Apart from that, yes, FD is still the most popular ^^ | ||
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Jealous
10361 Posts
On May 05 2016 09:07 f10eqq wrote: Nony Gates (the triple proxy in response to Rax CC) is a very strong build order. I'm only C max, but I've beaten B rank Terrans with it pretty easily. That said, I think Idra made some micro mistakes in his ro8 game vs Nony- specifically he targeted the zealots in siege mode at first when he should have immediately shot the goons. Instead of floating his cc away he could have left it on the ground to form a wall with his barracks (while it may have died it would have bought time for siege mode and blocking the ramp with scvs). He would have been ahead in workers even after losing his CC. The build is way stronger on a rampless map as demonstrated in the Stork vs Flash game, but on Fighting Spirit i think Rax CC can survive vs it if microed properly. But if you really want to stay safe, just FD like 90 percent of terrans. As a person who has used "Nony gates" to climb to old C pretty much exclusively, I can corroborate this. I almost got bored of beating C- level Terrans with it to the point that I started thinking "In how many ways can I cook Rax CC?" It granted such a mental edge, haha. I've built gates in their third and in the parallel third as well, to better hide the build. It is definitely one of those builds that is much harder to defend against than it is to pull off. On May 05 2016 10:22 Highgamer wrote: I think it might actually be Flash's influence that brought back rax FE a bit recently. Before that you could really mostly watch FDs in all variations on the Terrans' streams, for some almost exclusively. But I think especially Sea, maybe also Mong did use 1rax FE a lot throughout the recent years, so it was never really outdated. But Flash, from his first stream on, used that build en masse in TvP, maybe because that's just how he rolls, as he was confident that he could connect to his past after a while (rememer what a TvP-beast he was right until the end of the pro-scene). But he surely also tested the build a lot on nowadays Fish before even streaming, so if Flash says 1rax expo is still a thing, it is still a thing. Apart from that, yes, FD is still the most popular ^^ I agree with you as well. I can't attest to Flash's influence this year, but I would logically surmise that pro players have a lot more confidence going Rax FE than the average player nowadays. Some may foolishly attempt it because of the "If he can do it, I can do it too!" mentality. Flash has the right (God-given?) to do so. Most players should abstain in TvP, IMO. FD and its variants are so much more stable. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
That would stop proxy zealot rush builds right (the amount of repairs needed will still set you behind, but at least you'll survive). | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8921 Posts
repairing bunker at nat is also the same as repairing depots at main choke. also in some maps a siege tank at main wont reach to the ends of the nat mineral lines, meaning you cant even drop your cc until you have like 2 or 3 tanks | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 05 2016 13:51 Jealous wrote: I think its inherently the wrong approach to avoid a build because its difficult to pull off.As a person who has used "Nony gates" to climb to old C pretty much exclusively, I can corroborate this. I almost got bored of beating C- level Terrans with it to the point that I started thinking "In how many ways can I cook Rax CC?" It granted such a mental edge, haha. I've built gates in their third and in the parallel third as well, to better hide the build. It is definitely one of those builds that is much harder to defend against than it is to pull off. I agree with you as well. I can't attest to Flash's influence this year, but I would logically surmise that pro players have a lot more confidence going Rax FE than the average player nowadays. Some may foolishly attempt it because of the "If he can do it, I can do it too!" mentality. Flash has the right (God-given?) to do so. Most players should abstain in TvP, IMO. FD and its variants are so much more stable. | ||
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Jealous
10361 Posts
On May 06 2016 20:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote: What is the risk with going +3 proxy gates against rax CC? Let's say both have good control, I guess you always get to slow them down quite a lot, it's not really risky or all-in? What are T options to block it, 1 bunker repair and siege tank or? If you are blocked but keep enough of the goons, you can afford to later lose those proxy gates and start potentially an even game with good army advantage but slower eco (to slow down their 3rd and get yours up faster)? Sounds like a really strong counter to rax CC, I dunno cause I don't do that I tend to either expo immediately or make 2nd and/or 3rd gate in my base to pressure while I expo... and maybe win with normal 3gate goon pressure, so proxy 4 gates total sounds like a tough option. The risk is that 1. you have late obs, 2. because of that, if he holds it well enough then you have pretty much lost those gateways or will lose their functionality soon enough 3. you have a late expo, so if your bust doesn't do enough damage, you are behind, 4. you spent all that money on gates on top of the fact that your obs are late and your tech is late and finally 5. if it gets scouted it is held relatively easily. If T doesn't scout it, then discussing options is pretty much irrelevant, no? T has to scramble to use whatever it has to hold. Use SCVs to repair bunker, to block the entrance into the nat towards the tank, to block the ramp and lift CC if they fail to do the first 2. If T /does/ scout it then I think walling the choke along the bunker to prevent Zealots from getting in and having SCVs pre-pulled to repair seems like your best bet. I think it's a pretty strong counter but it has its downfalls too. It is foolish to pretend there is no risk at all. On May 06 2016 22:35 LetaBot wrote: When Terran players go for a 1 rax FE, why don't they build the rax and depots as a wall in the main choke? That would stop proxy zealot rush builds right (the amount of repairs needed will still set you behind, but at least you'll survive). I imagine it is because not all bases can be perfectly walled with 2 Depots and 1 Barracks, you are vulnerable to the earliest Dragoon pressure, and it reveals your build. Another point worth noting is that Dragoons usually fire on a Bunker and can't do so until range is upgraded, but with a wall they can fire from a distance that Bunker will not cover, so you are forced to do more repair time and potentially lose SCVs? I believe when Dragoon range is finished, they can keep harassing the Depots/Barracks all the way up to Siege mode, whereas against a solitary Bunker, a Siege Tank can push the Dragoons back by microing back and forth with the pom-poms. Also, isn't Rax CC after only 1 Depot? I might be wrong on that, though. If it is, then you're setting your build behind by doing 2 Depots just because you are scared of the possibility that there might be a relatively unpopular cheese coming your way. I would just scout earlier if this is a legitimate problem for you. On May 07 2016 08:43 Dazed_Spy wrote: I think its inherently the wrong approach to avoid a build because its difficult to pull off. Just my opinion. FD is a lot more consistent, so unless there is something map or player-specific, I would never recommend Rax FE over FD. Is it viable? Of course. But I think it's also high-risk high-reward, and that's something people might not understand. I've seen Terrans whine about it not working for them and not understanding why. | ||
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Wrath
3175 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
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Wrath
3175 Posts
On May 07 2016 17:47 Cryoc wrote: The best scan timing is when the spire just finishes and he saved larva to build the mutas, so you should try to hit that window. If he didn't build mutas, he basically cannot hold a third, so just go find and kill it. Also usually if they don't build muta, there is usually something else building, which gives you an indication on what he is really going for. He goes for lurkers instead of mutas. Usually they take the normal third (not the another main location) that is close to their natural (on FS). This allows them more faster third and forth. The resources that should have been spent on mutas will be spent on lurkers / lings and faster tech. I'll upload some replays shortly to show you how the games went. EDIT: Replays: http://iccup.com/en/replays/1304063.html http://iccup.com/en/replays/1304064.html http://iccup.com/en/replays/1304066.html | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Your first scout is 10-15 seconds too late. If you don't find a hatch building at the first natural you scout, you have to send out a second SCV immediately. By doing this you can most of the time find him right on time at the second natural in case he went hatch first to cancel your first or second marine and instead get the CC up first. In case you find him on first try you can even build cc before second depot. Your second mistake is not knowing a basic build order. You're going academy before gas? What can you possibly do with an academy without going gas first? You got supply blocked at 44 and only build one comsat station for some time and don't even use it? I could understand not using the comsat immediately if you would do a sneaky marine/medic/firebat push and you don't want him to know you've got an academy already, but you don't do anything of the sort. If you had scanned, you would have seen that he build a hydralisk den even before he build a spire, typically if you intend on going lurkers you have to build hydralisk den half way of lair to be able to start lurker aspect as soon as lair finishes. You seem to have a lot of issues with army control as well, you've got 3 medics and 3 marines standing between your natural/third for no reason and when you attack with marines, your medics aren't even close etc. Next you suicide an entire army due to poor control. You stopped building SCVs and you forgot second ebay. I do like that you are expanding very fast and you at least seemed to understand that versus lurkers it is very effective to be out on the map and in his face. You don't want to be cowering in your own base with lurkers at your front waiting for a defiler to pop up and ruin your day. Then you're getting dropships before your first vessel, why would you do that? When you have a vessel you can attack into lurkers with tanks without even sieging up. It's good that you think about drops though because they're insanely strong especially vs someone who doesn't even get defilers on time. With good control you can just run away every time they want to get in range, or even focus one down and then retreat. To defend a third against lurkers you just want a bunker or two at the ramps, you can put a small group of marine medics there too and it's really hard to break it without swarm. Right now you have like 8 scvs mining in your main, your natural looks ok and your third is undersaturated as well, at least you've started building scvs again. Then you have this army going for his 4th/5th that's barely an army and it's completely out of position. Send a drop ship to his 4th/5th, keep your main army between your and his natural. + Show Spoiler + Lurkers take 2 full minutes to come out after den has finished (1:30 for aspect iirc and 25s for morphing). A zerg taking a close-by third is more often a desperation move cause they can't get a far away up which does tend to come with a free 4th once you have swarm. A close-by third is easier to hold but doesn't make getting a 4th easier. You have to scan and see what he's doing, if spire is close to finishing and he has saved up 9 larva, he most likely will build mutalisks. He could also make a round of drones but then he just gives up all map control. He can only have lurkers on time if he builds a den before spire. Your second replay was basically the exact same story. I didn't watch the third one. Hope this helps. Also, try playing as zerg every now and then, you'll learn more about the match-up that way. | ||
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
TvZ comes naturally to some Terrans and does not to others (like me). If you macro properly, your army is strong enough to pressure defensive Zergs and to defend aggressive zergs at all times in the game, but that also requires good decision making and a lot of attention. The timing windows are very tight in the matchup. Against Zergs that mix it up and play defensive lurker 3-base, it can feel as if there's nothing you can do if you don't play cleverly, but to be able to react at all to such things, your own game has to be very solid. It's fine if Zerg "gets away" with the 3hatch-lurker, as long as you pressure him with your army while playing a solid macro game at home. Overall, you have to practice one build order until you can do it without mistakes and without having to think about it much. Don't see this as boring button-smashing-practice, but as the fastest way to start kicking ass on the ladder. (Basically it's what you probably did for TvP all over again, it will take a while but in the end won't be a problem for you) First, get reliable information on the build order of your choice. In practice, build every building, upgrade and unit on the exact supply count that is prescribed until something like 50-60 supply. You should know exactly what to do until you're in the lategame on 3-4 bases with all your desired production buildings. In the end you should be able to perform the build order solidly while having some time/apm left to organize and move your army. Then on the ladder, over time you will get really familiar with the timings of that build order in relation to different stuff the Zerg can do. Oftentimes in the midgame, it's not about killing the Zerg, but about occupying him enough to be able to macro and expand more. If you have achieved that solidity in your play I described, you can suddenly react to a lot of things the Zerg can do to mix up the game: pool b4 hatch, fast lair, mass-ling attacks, 2hatch muta, lurker play, fast hive. You have solid macro to fall back on and your unit-control gets better and better. Glhf, we can play some games later or another day. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 07 2016 13:57 Jealous wrote: Well, I agree that I wouldnt suggest it to any odd terran in an important match, or whatever. I wouldnt recommend it to increase your win rate in the short term, but, if you explain to the terran as you did that its a hard build to pull off, recommending to learn it is still advisable. Build diversity is important not only in being a good player, but having fun, and the game awareness that comes with defending against a litany of cheese and succeeding in a macro oriented build shouldnt be dismissed. So yes, if someone is looking to maximize their win rate in the short term on ladder, they shouldnt do it, and if they have an important match, they also shouldnt do it without significant practice. But spamming a build specifically in order to learn it, with a full understanding you will get your ass kicked by every cheese in the book for weeks, is a great way to learn imo.Just my opinion. FD is a lot more consistent, so unless there is something map or player-specific, I would never recommend Rax FE over FD. Is it viable? Of course. But I think it's also high-risk high-reward, and that's something people might not understand. I've seen Terrans whine about it not working for them and not understanding why. It's the same thing with recommending people never cheese because they will hit a brick wall at one point. Sort of the wrong way to approach the game; they should learn to cheese incredibly well, it just shouldnt come about inspite of everything else. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
On May 08 2016 02:20 Dazed_Spy wrote: Well, I agree that I wouldnt suggest it to any odd terran in an important match, or whatever. I wouldnt recommend it to increase your win rate in the short term, but, if you explain to the terran as you did that its a hard build to pull off, recommending to learn it is still advisable. Build diversity is important not only in being a good player, but having fun, and the game awareness that comes with defending against a litany of cheese and succeeding in a macro oriented build shouldnt be dismissed. So yes, if someone is looking to maximize their win rate in the short term on ladder, they shouldnt do it, and if they have an important match, they also shouldnt do it without significant practice. But spamming a build specifically in order to learn it, with a full understanding you will get your ass kicked by every cheese in the book for weeks, is a great way to learn imo. It's the same thing with recommending people never cheese because they will hit a brick wall at one point. Sort of the wrong way to approach the game; they should learn to cheese incredibly well, it just shouldnt come about inspite of everything else. I don't think Rax Expand TvP can be regarded as a standard safe opening, as it just loses to proxy 2gate and even vs 1 proxy gate you will most likely end up being behind. So this is not a strategy you can consistently use vs the same opponent. And 1 proxy gate is also not really risky for protoss. At most it forces them to go for a 2 gate expand if their initial harrass was unsuccessful vs a factory build. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
- There's no hold position command in the triggers - I tried ordering them to move to their current location at all times. They return to their original position but do still move when enemy units are in their proximity. - I tried to find a trigger to modify a unit to limit its vision but couldn't find a way how to. Maybe I could blind the unit? Is there an easy way to accomplish this? On May 07 2016 18:02 Wrath wrote: He goes for lurkers instead of mutas. Usually they take the normal third (not the another main location) that is close to their natural (on FS). This allows them more faster third and forth. The resources that should have been spent on mutas will be spent on lurkers / lings and faster tech. I'll upload some replays shortly to show you how the games went. EDIT: Replays: http://iccup.com/en/replays/1304063.html http://iccup.com/en/replays/1304064.html http://iccup.com/en/replays/1304066.html Here's a game flash played where the zerg doesn't build mutas and instead gets lurkers. Watch how he approaches it, ignore the openers. | ||
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
On May 09 2016 17:09 B-royal wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Dvx_RQoK4&feature=youtu.be&t=4645 Here's a game flash played where the zerg doesn't build mutas and instead gets lurkers. Watch how he approaches it, ignore the openers. ... and the outcome... Openers cannot really be ignored as only Flash's 14CC gives Z the chance to take the 3rd before lair. That said, it's true that from that game you can learn a way to react if you already built turrets and then find out it's lurkers (generally means you're behind). Flash is playing rather ballsy here I think, going for pure rine/medic for such a long time vs super-fast swarm, but basically, first, he tries to soft-contain the zerg and micro against the advancing lurkers for as long as possible. Then/meanwhile he gets mines to defend, expands once, twice as soon as he can safely do so, and transitions rather quickly into full mech. I think Z let him do that though by teching so fast and not going for a big lurker-ling midgame (that could be stopped with rine/medic and superior micro though). In the end Flash might have defended better, but basically the misread earlier on came back to haunt him. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4179 Posts
- I'm at 10 and toss is at 4, let's assume standard openings and everything transitions to late game - toss expands aggressively to both mains on 8 and 2 - I push out I kill his initial army and go on to kill his nat expansions at 2 - he never engages my army afterwards and constantly runs around the map looking for openings - whenever I kill one of the nats at 8 or 2, he just builds another on the opposite location - after some time I get worn down despite having a larger army most of the game due to the difficulty of securing a 4th | ||
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