EPTEvery time I encounter those 12 nexus I feel the urge to literally yolo all my scv and whatever shit I have...
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Wrath
3175 Posts
Every time I encounter those 12 nexus I feel the urge to literally yolo all my scv and whatever shit I have... | ||
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
On May 25 2016 05:05 Wrath wrote: I just don't know. If he nexus first and then you go fast 3rd with mines, his 2 base all in should alteast force your third to be lift off and not mention if he can do damage to your natural. Every time I encounter those 12 nexus I feel the urge to literally yolo all my scv and whatever shit I have... I don't think I or anyone else meant that you take a fast 3rd with mines. You take your natural behind mines and then check out what Protoss is doing while getting tanks and siege and all. Why would you take a 3rd against a 2base-Protoss? Sorry if I caused confusion. Even if you take a relatively fast 3rd in response to Protoss' fast 3rd: In this scenario you have to be very careful about takin that one, but you should be able to do so soon enough after you established your 2base-economy, as Protoss is spreading out (more places to defend vulture-harrass) and investing into something else than gateways/units. Definitelly don't just build the 3rd on-location (at the 3rd-location), and go up to 4 factories before you float the CC, close your natural-bridge (on FS) etc. And expect Protoss to take a fast 4th and max out quickly, but that is common in any long TvP where you don't get a perfect start. Every time I encounter those 12 nexus I feel the urge to literally yolo all my scv and whatever shit I have... Protoss will be ahead, but not miles ahead... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JgIcgwW.jpg) Protoss will have everything he/she wants a little faster, will be a little stronger. But as a Terran you can get ahead by defending with a good trade - or at least you can even out the game. You can come back by good vulture harrass or just a good engagement. And the longer you can hold on the less significant the early eco-lead for Protoss will become (if you play solid that is). | ||
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Wrath
3175 Posts
I don't think I or anyone else meant that you take a fast 3rd with mines. You take your natural behind mines and then check out what Protoss is doing while getting tanks and siege and all. Why would you take a 3rd against a 2base-Protoss? Sorry if I caused confusion. Isn't that what the mines double expand is? Taking a fast third with mines? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/366805-g-d-tvp-mines-double-expand | ||
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
Still I find it a risky concept that has obvious problems, like Cryoc wrote. I ran into the exact same problem many times trying to rush for a 3rd vs 12nex. The Vods in that thread show that there is a specific time frame to get away with it and it suits players who don't like to bunker rush to go for this kind of risk. Maybe it's just a progamer-thing... On May 25 2016 02:41 Cryoc wrote: Personally I see bunker rushing as the most consistent option. I also tried the mine double expand for a while but I often ran into the problem that you cannot get mines or speed fast enough to contain them directly at their natural, so you have to mine multiple paths and he can just use the first zealot to clear one path to the third or nat and it is really hard to stop the initial 1 zealot 2 goon attack with 2 more goons on the way with only vultures from 1 Fac. If Protoss only went for 1 gate after 12 Nexus, it would be a better option, but then I would bunker rush him even if I cut 1 marine as 1 goon at a time is way easier to handle. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
After you managed to get to 200/200, you can then start moving out and start killing the 3rd corner of the map which Protoss probably already took or is about to and take the bases yourself. If you managed that, keep successful recalls to a minimum and watch out for a carrier transition. | ||
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Wrath
3175 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
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Wrath
3175 Posts
On May 25 2016 20:22 Cryoc wrote: Well it is your choice really to decide if you want to fight zealots with marines and scvs at your natural or at his natural. Why can't we have a peaceful early game. WHY?!  | ||
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
There is a reason why you don't face 12nex all the time. Bunker rushing is a big threat to that build, and the mine-play can be really effective even if you don't know perfect builds for a fast 3rd like those linked above. I think sometimes I just take a fast 3rd behind mines because it feels right, without knowing all that stuff. Just do some dry runs with those builds against a Protoss you know, or even in the single player, and then do whatever you prefer the next time you see a 12nex. You can do it. edit: Peaceful early games can be haunting, too. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8931 Posts
someone mentioned that they cant hold off a 1 zealot 2 goon push with that build, which should NEVER be happening in the first place. your mines contain at the natural at the start and you should have more mines on pathways to your expos to slow down any aggressive movement if he does decide to move out (which he shouldnt). the reason toss wont move out against a mine contain that early in the game is because toss doesnt have enough units to attack an expo and defend against vulture runbys simultaneously. just keep your vultures near his base and make sure he knows that youre willing to run in given a chance to clear his mineral lines. no attack from protoss is going to give him a lead over 2 vultures in his base clearing all his probes. | ||
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Wrath
3175 Posts
If the Protoss willing to take those losses, then I don't think he will be able to send reinforcement and you will be able to defend with a bunker and scvs while you tech for a tank. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28911 Posts
basically p only has like 1 goon with 1-2 zealots when you come with vultures and scvs. scvs are actually really good vs dragoons in that small numbers (target shields with vultures but change to other targets after 4 shots). If you manage to use vultures to target helping probes / zealots, and scvs to repair vultures/attack dragoons while rallying your 2 fact vulture. you sacrifice some econ of your own but I normally managed to clear out their natural. (if you don't kill some probes then that's basically 'game on', slight advantage for you but not that big) Gotta admit that I haven't done this much for the past 5 years, maybe protoss timings/micro have become better, but definitely used to do the trick.  | ||
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States350 Posts
On December 11 2008 16:03 Ver wrote: Basically FD is stronger vs all 1 gate builds, especially DT ones, because you can push into/up to their base and do damage while starting your own cc far far ahead of theirs. This is why 2 gate goon is the current favored build since it just plain stops FD in its tracks. Nowadays, people can hold FD pushes on 1 gate with decent micro, but I was thinking of trying dt expand as a way to counter FD. I believe on FS, DT pops right as the FD from close position reaches your nat, so wouldn't it hard counter the push especially if you snipe the vults with your initial goons? Also, I thought the whole point of FD was that you could reactively lay mines and defend at your natural if you suspect a DT opener rather than push into their nat (and unless they place their initial mines perfectly, DTs can still sneak in). Another benefit of DT expand is that you can delay their natural forever if they decide to siege expand. Given these benefits, why did pros decide to 1 gate expand with goon/range/quicker observer rather than go for fast DT tech? Is it just more adaptable with the quicker observer? | ||
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Jealous
10403 Posts
On May 29 2016 05:35 f10eqq wrote: Speaking of TvP builds, Ver wrote this in 2008: Nowadays, people can hold FD pushes on 1 gate with decent micro, but I was thinking of trying dt expand as a way to counter FD. I believe on FS, DT pops right as the FD from close position reaches your nat, so wouldn't it hard counter the push especially if you snipe the vults with your initial goons? Also, I thought the whole point of FD was that you could reactively lay mines and defend at your natural if you suspect a DT opener rather than push into their nat (and unless they place their initial mines perfectly, DTs can still sneak in). Another benefit of DT expand is that you can delay their natural forever if they decide to siege expand. Given these benefits, why did pros decide to 1 gate expand with goon/range/quicker observer rather than go for fast DT tech? Is it just more adaptable with the quicker observer? I feel like there are a lot of factors to consider here, but I guess it depends on the skill level of the Terran. I'll just assume that Terran is good, because I find little point theorycrafting about noob Terrans. 1. Terran should be able to tell that you are going DT based on your composition. I strongly doubt that you get DT out before FD hits if you have range and a reasonable amount of Dragoons. As a result, if they don't scout it directly by being in your base longer than you would like them to be or by sending a second SCV to check for expo/Goon count, then they will most certainly know it as soon as your army meets theirs. Remember that Terran commonly builds a second Vulture during the FD push; it will easily have the time to lay a defensive mine before your push arrives at Terran's base. 2. DT openings in my opinion are hit-or-miss: barring extreme scenarios, you either end up ahead or behind, but you have to work hard to NOT be behind. Reason being is if you don't do sufficient damage to a Terran that is doing FD, your expansion is later, you gave up map control because you have no Obs, your Range is late so you have to play even more defensively against any Terran Vulture shenanigans. When Terran has map control like that, scary shit can happen, like being contained behind your bridge on FS or the Terran has the freedom to go for a 3rd CC off of 1 Factory with just mines, knowing that you won't be able to do shit for a couple of minutes and even if you did have a relatively fast Robotics, then how much army could you muster? Not much. 3. Fast Observer is crucial for knowing what build the Terran is going for. If Terran is going for 1 Factory 3 CC vs. 3 Factory push vs. 5 Factory push vs. 1 Fac Port vs. some crazy Biomech all-in, you have no way of knowing with out Observers. If you guess wrong and don't have the right Gate count, you could get fucked. If you guess wrong and don't expand accordingly, you could end up seriously behind in economy. Therefore, 1 Gateway Robotic Obs is more adaptable as you said, which is key in this match-up. Also, it should help you maintain map control, which is crucial for out-expanding Terran. TL;DR: This is all my personal unprofessional take on the matter, but I find DT openings to be too risky and not consistent enough as compared to "safer" openings which give you Observers. Sure, it may work great vs. Siege-Expand, but in other scenarios you are likely to fall behind terribly against a good Terran. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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Wrath
3175 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 01 2016 15:27 Wrath wrote: What "w-mode"? Windowed mode. -_-; Says "RT error!" when I try to run it. Fix it now. | ||
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Wrath
3175 Posts
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Kau
Canada3502 Posts
On June 02 2016 01:09 ninazerg wrote: Windowed mode. -_-; Says "RT error!" when I try to run it. Fix it now. I usually get that problem the first time I try to run it. I think it has something to do with it taking to start up SC. Trying a second time always works for me though. | ||
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Wrath
3175 Posts
And no, don't say change OS. | ||
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