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[G/D]TvP Mines Double Expand

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Nazza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1654 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-14 06:07:36
September 07 2012 05:53 GMT
#1
The concept of the strategy is simple: In response to a 12 nexus from Protoss, you get a fast third CC before your second factory, ebay, academy or any other tech. Opening with mines allows you to abuse the fact that Protoss has late detection, due to a later robo bay and thus later observers.

Build Order
I try not to think too deeply into actual numbers, but rather the actions that you need to take in order to get certain buildings up at certain times (Which is a fancy way of saying just build it when you have money). That being said, a rough BO that I came up with was:

9/10 Supply Depot
11/18 Barracks
11/18 Refinary
15/18 Factory
Pull two off gas
16/18 Supply Depot
@100% Factory: Machine Shop
when you scout a 12 nexus, don't put 2 back on gas
23/26 2nd CC
At this point, you should have scouted the 12 Nexus. You should pull SCVs off gas in order to get a faster 3rd CC.
@100% Machine Shop: Mines upgrade
24/26 Supply Depot
30/44 - 3rd CC
Put 2 SCVs back on gas
Ion Thrusters
Ebay/2nd Factory
Armory/Acad, then transition to Hiya Build/Flash Build

*Note that in TurN's replay, he gets only 2 vultures before cutting to get the 3rd CC. Based on what you scout (2 gate after nexus, of 1 gate gas core), you may need to adjust this. Also, based on how many zealots P is making, you may need more marines in order to get mines up.

*TurN gets ion thrusters first, but depending on what P is doing, you may want to get siege mode first. The idea of ion thrusters is that vults can backstab and also lay mines more aggressively in front of dragoons when they come attack you. Unsieged tanks, marines and speed vultures are able to hold off early protoss aggression, like when doing a Fact CC Fact/FD.

Execution
Try to lay mines as aggressively as you can. The idea is that even if Protoss moves out past a certain zone, you can backstab with speed vultures. With speed vultures, it is possible to defend even without tanks/siege mode for a short while, but it is definitely recommended that you research siege mode!

VODs
If you are wondering why players like FlaSh don't use this strat, it's because 1 Rax FE is really common in TvP. However, as a new player, you may want to start of 1 Fact FE, and you will eventually come across a Protoss that 12 nexes and you scout him last.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36475_Mvp_vs_Stork
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36476_BeSt_vs_Mvp
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/59894_Fantasy_vs_Jaehoon (vs 1 Gate FE)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/61801_Fantasy_vs_Movie (vs 1 Gate FE)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/99246_BeSt_vs_Last (vs 1 Gate FE)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/100873_BeSt_vs_TurN

replays

Turn vs Sang: http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=2039

Hiya and Minus)mvp (6 games): http://www.mediafire.com/?rfccor8022jb3o7

Credits
thx to:
puppykiller for providing a VODs torrent and sorting out VODs by opening
Ver - for his old posts on the build
No one ever remembers second place, eh? eh? GIVE ME COMMAND
Release
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4397 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 06:13:54
September 07 2012 06:13 GMT
#2
Usually, i would transition into a 9/10 fact after something like this. The protoss will inevitably try to get a third base and perhaps even a fourth to keep up. 9/10 fact simply shuts this down cold (or at least in most cases it will).
In the case that the protoss stays on two bases (go ahead and scout; you are ahead), you have the choice to not produce out of some factories and get some tech up.

One game i think is not quite this (your) build but is very good replay is Flash vs Pure on EyeOfTheStorm.
+ Show Spoiler +



☺
Nazza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1654 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 06:39:12
September 07 2012 06:36 GMT
#3
On September 07 2012 15:13 Release wrote:
Usually, i would transition into a 9/10 fact after something like this. The protoss will inevitably try to get a third base and perhaps even a fourth to keep up. 9/10 fact simply shuts this down cold (or at least in most cases it will).
In the case that the protoss stays on two bases (go ahead and scout; you are ahead), you have the choice to not produce out of some factories and get some tech up.

One game i think is not quite this (your) build but is very good replay is Flash vs Pure on EyeOfTheStorm.
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAvZ1mFjzms&playnext=1&list=PL1BC1AB0B81B7504F&feature=results_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=019RWrtc4kI&feature=watch_response

Yep.

The most recent game would be TurN vs Best on Sniper Ridge. TurN goes for a 9 Factory +1 Weapons timing attack. Even though BeSt opts for a 2 base arbiter strat, BeSt still loses.



Flash's build on EotS was basically the same concept, staying on 1 Fact while double expanding. However he just made Siege Tanks. I think it's because the 3rd on EotS isn't up a ramp and is also easily wallable with 2 depots.
No one ever remembers second place, eh? eh? GIVE ME COMMAND
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
September 07 2012 17:11 GMT
#4
Nice guide.
May I add that the concept of triple cc behind mines has been applied to barrack double openings aswell.

barrack double
2 facs and 2 shops
(speed and mines then siege)
academy
3rd cc
armoury
ebay
5 facs
7 facs
9 facs

This build can be used when facing a nexus first opener. See how siege is skipped and also the ebay while instead getting vulture upgrades and a 3rd cc.
Barrack double vs double nexus is even-stevens. So after seeing double nexus, if Terran wants to immediately get ahead economically, they use this build. If Protoss goes to 4 gates and observers after the double nexus, Terran has successfully taken the lead and would aim to do 7-10 factory timing. However, Protoss can opt to get a 3rd nexus sooner, as does Stats in both of these games.
After the nexus first vs Reality, Stats gets 2 gates then 3rd nexus (before range).
After the nexus first vs Leta, Stats gets 1 gate, range, robo, then 3rd nexus.
Note that Reality got 1 tank then 4 vults.
Leta got 3 tanks initially though.

Reality vs Stats on Jade (reality spawns behind stats)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/107126_Reality_vs_Stats/vod


Leta vs Stats Circuit Breaker (top vs bottom)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/49289_Leta_vs_Stats/vod


To be frank, Terran can still somewhat use the same tactic of a fast 3rd cc behind the threat of vultures even when using a rax double opener vs range goon expo openers.
The tweaks Terran must make: get 1 tank with siege mode initially, and get ebay before 3rd cc.
So your basic build (ie Flashs most cutting edge build) looks like this:
Rax expo
2 facs and 2 shops
(siege, speed, then mines)
Academy
Ebay
CC
Armoury
3rd and 4th fac
Star
5th fac
Science and 2nd armoury
6th and 7th fac

Flash vs Dear on Jade (dear spawns behind flash)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/117050_Dear_vs_Flash/vod

Flash vs Dear on Ground Zero (top vs bottom)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/104538_Dear_vs_Flash/vod
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
Pyre_Fly
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom31 Posts
September 07 2012 22:52 GMT
#5
Boxer famously started this off I believe.....loving the audacity of it :D
"You know what's all the rage this year? Hats."
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
September 07 2012 23:52 GMT
#6
Good to see that someone is making use of the assorted vods I made. This sort of thing is exactly what they were intended for.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
UPro-BW
Profile Joined September 2012
81 Posts
September 09 2012 10:41 GMT
#7
at around ~85 supply comes the factory explosion
"3t4t5t6v7v8v9v" - iloveoov
hewley
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1063 Posts
September 09 2012 14:19 GMT
#8
Thank you for the guide!!!!
I always hated playing against nexus first and bunker rush if you scout them on the last position on a 4player map is kinda meh...
Esports bubble pop, bubble pop
Nazza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1654 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-14 06:09:21
September 14 2012 06:08 GMT
#9
I've uploaded a small replay pack of 6 games from both hiya and minus)mvp in the OP.

I'll write up my analysis of TurN vs BeSt later.
No one ever remembers second place, eh? eh? GIVE ME COMMAND
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