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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 28 2021 22:06 LaStScan wrote: it's not the same crazy zerg as old style one. Not a lot of people in the foreign community will believe anything Terran players say though. It's because of Artosis spreading the rage for decades and we've kind of gotten used to humouring him, but very few people will actually believe anything he says. If what other people say coincides with what he says, it becomes false by association and then meh. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7088 Posts
On July 28 2021 22:06 LaStScan wrote: it's not the same crazy zerg as old style one. What is different ? Do you have some vod ? Im curious what makes this build so stronger now. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 28 2021 22:48 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What is different ? Do you have some vod ? Im curious what makes this build so stronger now. From what I undestand what makes it so strong is Terran sitting on 2base for 15 minutes then suffering death to 4-5 base zerg. Then again it's entirely possible it's something else, but my source material is somewhat limited. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1605 Posts
On July 29 2021 03:21 Nikon wrote: From what I undestand what makes it so strong is Terran sitting on 2base for 15 minutes then suffering death to 4-5 base zerg. Then again it's entirely possible it's something else, but my source material is somewhat limited. Terran or Artosis? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7088 Posts
On July 29 2021 03:21 Nikon wrote: From what I undestand what makes it so strong is Terran sitting on 2base for 15 minutes then suffering death to 4-5 base zerg. Then again it's entirely possible it's something else, but my source material is somewhat limited. Do you know what is the crazy zerg strategy? if you dont I will explain it simple. Mutalisk + zerglings + early evolution chamber to get a +1 carapace. then u get hive and ultralisk cavern and make ultralisk as fast as possible from 3 gazes. There are multiple variations but the basic concept is that. What you mention. doesnt sound vrazy zerg to me. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 29 2021 03:51 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Do you know what is the crazy zerg strategy? if you dont I will explain it simple. Mutalisk + zerglings + early evolution chamber to get a +1 carapace. then u get hive and ultralisk cavern and make ultralisk as fast as possible from 3 gazes. There are multiple variations but the basic concept is that. What you mention. doesnt sound vrazy zerg to me. Maybe I should try that. I usually get lurkers and/or defilers, but terrans seem to be going 2port vessel insanely early so relying on lurkers/dark swarm for defence is extra tough. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On July 29 2021 03:58 Nikon wrote: Maybe I should try that. I usually get lurkers and/or defilers, but terrans seem to be going 2port vessel insanely early so relying on lurkers/dark swarm for defence is extra tough. Exactly that. Crazy zerg counters certain transitions like 2 port vessel. In the early days it was normal for terrans to transition from m&m into siege tanks in most games. Crazy zerg would've performed relatively poorly during those days, but ever since SKTerran hopped onto the radar it become more viable. This is especially true on maps where it's easier to defend expansions with fewer sunkens against pure m&m. So this "new" strat is not a winning formula in and of itself, it's just a curveball that "steals" wins from terrans who don't adapt in some capacity. tedster's analysis is spot on. I think if terran players start to transition into siege tanks more often and/or more quickly, we'll likely see crazy zerg lose some of its viability. Because tanks should be pretty much the hardest counter to it. A key question is how predictable crazy zerg really is. Can it be figured out in time or can it be disguised as a standard strat? If it's the latter, then a tank transition would either be a bit of a gamble or it would lose effectiveness due to tanks arriving late. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 28 2021 03:26 Nikon wrote: Yeah, those continious buffs on defilers in the last 10 years have really made them a force of reckoning unseen before in SC:BW. I dont understand how there exist people who look at the defiler and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in an RTS game. But that is the nature of BW. Everything is broken in so many ways and everyone just has to deal with it. But by modern game design standards, something like a defiler in its current form would never exist in a game imo, due to how unfair/unfun it feels to play against. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following. | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
On July 30 2021 07:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand how there exist people who look at the science vessel and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in a matchup in an RTS game. Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following. eh maybe in tvz, but it's spell EMP in tvp is less than spectacular. | ||
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TT1
Canada10089 Posts
On July 30 2021 08:08 SolaR- wrote: eh maybe in tvz, but it's spell EMP in tvp is less than spectacular. depends on the player, like everything in BW | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 28 2021 22:48 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What is different ? Do you have some vod ? Im curious what makes this build so stronger now. I'm interested in this as well. Light's point about 2/1 heavy mnm vs crazy zerg is afaik the standard so how is this new style any different from the old one? Do zergs somehow have better upgrades? Are zergs better at using minimal units so they stack more resources for more ultras? Is it much more to do with maps now? What is it about this strat that's so different? | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway772 Posts
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TT1
Canada10089 Posts
On July 30 2021 10:16 Timebon3s wrote: Wouldn’t 1 or 2 factory vulture with mines be devastating to this strategy? crazy zerg's hard counter is a ~2-3 valk bio push (FlaSh did an extremely strong/optimized version of this b.o in a recent ASL season), the problem for T is recognizing the build ahead of time you can also force Z off of crazy zerg with certain openers, like 1-1-1 for example (makes it easy and flexible for T to go into valks) in standard meta crazy zerg is stronger cus ppl are better at muta microing, they gain map control with efficient muta trades and go into ultras w/ an extremely strong eco (its easy to power once you have map control) if crazy zerg becomes an issue terrans are just gonna start mixing in 1-1-1's, thats how the meta changes.. that said i have no idea if crazy zerg is an issue at the highest lvl | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 30 2021 07:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand how there exist people who look at the science vessel and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in a matchup in an RTS game. Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following. I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4187 Posts
On July 30 2021 11:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it. The BW community on TL hates everything lmao, every time something nice comes up and BW TL will find some way to hate on it. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4187 Posts
- You go 2 hatch or 2.5 hatch mute and get +1 attack, keep Terran in base and abuse them with muta micro (you need good muta micro to pull this off). - Get quick carapace upgrade, tech to ultras asap - Take random locations all over the map where travel distance is far. - The "craziest" thing about this variation is no zerglings, just pure upgraded ultras The reason this is so strong is the mutas can keep Terran in base forever, and the upgraded ultras can tank forever vs marines. You don't even need zerglings with this build, all your larva goes to ultras. Watch this game between Action and Rush to see what I'm talking about (from the 1:19 mark). Action also countered with the ultras whenever Rush moved which is essentially buying time for another expo, once you get your 4th gas the game is pretty much over. The next game on eclipse showcases an even stronger version of this build since Action took the double gas. Going tank is risky, if Zerg picks off 1-2 tanks with mutas its gg. Valk builds can work but Zerg just needs to sunken up and buy time for ultras. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
622 Posts
On July 30 2021 11:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it. https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/488983-artosis-says-sc2-is-more-strategic-than-bw | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On July 30 2021 13:39 Dante08 wrote: Btw I don't think many people here have an idea of the "new" crazy Zerg style OP is talking about. - You go 2 hatch or 2.5 hatch mute and get +1 attack, keep Terran in base and abuse them with muta micro (you need good muta micro to pull this off). - Get quick carapace upgrade, tech to ultras asap - Take random locations all over the map where travel distance is far. - The "craziest" thing about this variation is no zerglings, just pure upgraded ultras The reason this is so strong is the mutas can keep Terran in base forever, and the upgraded ultras can tank forever vs marines. You don't even need zerglings with this build, all your larva goes to ultras. Watch this game between Action and Rush to see what I'm talking about (from the 1:19 mark). Action also countered with the ultras whenever Rush moved which is essentially buying time for another expo, once you get your 4th gas the game is pretty much over. The next game on eclipse showcases an even stronger version of this build since Action took the double gas. Going tank is risky, if Zerg picks off 1-2 tanks with mutas its gg. Valk builds can work but Zerg just needs to sunken up and buy time for ultras. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nUXPPZMWFU&t=5708s I was going to provide some VODs to support my previous post, but this one is pretty good one. I know there will be people skipping through and just see the score that rush was leading the score in this 9 games total ultimate battle so I'll make a short summary. every single of 2h muta into chamber carapace playstyle that action pulled out, he won every game with it. almost half of the games they played, action chose to do 3h build and there were quite a lot of build order lose too. the current crazy zerg build that zerg players are doing is completely pure muta into mass drone, sunken lines and immediately switching to ultras. not even planning to add a macro hatch(like main base another hatchery for more larvae). the old style of ZvT was like numbers of mineral x1.2~1.3 for drones, but nowadays they just pump out drones a lot. even if they are stuck at 2 base, they make almost 40-50 drones. not using much of lings because they are useless | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 30 2021 15:03 CHEONSOYUN wrote: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/488983-artosis-says-sc2-is-more-strategic-than-bw Ok? What is this link supposed to tell me? Is it a justification that artosis deserves to be hated for stating this opinion 6 years ago? Because if so, I dont think i have ever met people more insecure about their game, if they cannot even stand this simple “criticism”. | ||
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