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On July 31 2021 03:21 Sedo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Forgive me but I'm failing to see the options that are not gambles here.
The point was, unless you're facing pro level muta harass, you SHOULD be gambling based on determining factors. If your opponent has displayed subpar micro abilities, slow or delayed timings, or loses units for free, you should be gambling. It becomes much less of a gamble and much more of a power play when taking into account the above factors that can come into play. Adjusting based on what you scout IS KEY.
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On July 31 2021 03:32 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:21 Sedo wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Forgive me but I'm failing to see the options that are not gambles here. The point was, unless you're facing pro level muta harass, you SHOULD be gambling based on determining factors. If your opponent has displayed subpar micro abilities, slow or delayed timings, or loses units for free, you should be gambling. It becomes much less of a gamble and much more of a power play when taking into account the above factors that can come into play. Adjusting based on what you scout IS KEY.
Ah, I see. Thank you.
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On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense...
Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level.
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On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level.
thats not something that tlers can discuss tho
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On July 31 2021 03:47 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. thats not something that tlers can discuss tho
Not many under 2500 mmr or those who aren't Scan lol
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On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level.
This is fascinating. Apparently zerg discovered a 2 hatch muta build. Is kind of funny this evolution happened when FlaSh and Effort went away.
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On July 31 2021 03:47 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. thats not something that tlers can discuss tho
Well, anyone can discuss anything. There are sport experts that have never played at the highest levels, for instance. There's no reason to think that only people above x MMR should be allowed to voice their opinion on the subject.
In this instance, Scan states that T cant safely move out, and another user says that pro T's are making assumption. The point I'm trying to get across is that in 2H vs T 1rax FE follow ups, it would be a gamble to move out simply because Zerg could have enough to kill the moveout, and thus put T at a massive disadvantage. Thus T has to "assume".
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On July 31 2021 03:56 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:47 Puosu wrote:On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. thats not something that tlers can discuss tho Well, anyone can discuss anything. There are sport experts that have never played at the highest levels, for instance. There's no reason to think that only people above x MMR should be allowed to voice their opinion on the subject. In this instance, Scan states that T cant safely move out, and another user says that pro T's are making assumption. The point I'm trying to get across is that in 2H vs T 1rax FE follow ups, it would be a gamble to move out simply because Zerg could have enough to kill the moveout, and thus put T at a massive disadvantage. Thus T has to "assume".
are you that sports expert
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On July 31 2021 04:07 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:56 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:47 Puosu wrote:On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. thats not something that tlers can discuss tho Well, anyone can discuss anything. There are sport experts that have never played at the highest levels, for instance. There's no reason to think that only people above x MMR should be allowed to voice their opinion on the subject. In this instance, Scan states that T cant safely move out, and another user says that pro T's are making assumption. The point I'm trying to get across is that in 2H vs T 1rax FE follow ups, it would be a gamble to move out simply because Zerg could have enough to kill the moveout, and thus put T at a massive disadvantage. Thus T has to "assume". are you that sports expert
No, and I don't need to be. Anyone can express their opinion about the topic. In fact, by your own standards, you shouldn't be posting in this thread.
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On July 31 2021 04:07 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:56 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:47 Puosu wrote:On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. thats not something that tlers can discuss tho Well, anyone can discuss anything. There are sport experts that have never played at the highest levels, for instance. There's no reason to think that only people above x MMR should be allowed to voice their opinion on the subject. In this instance, Scan states that T cant safely move out, and another user says that pro T's are making assumption. The point I'm trying to get across is that in 2H vs T 1rax FE follow ups, it would be a gamble to move out simply because Zerg could have enough to kill the moveout, and thus put T at a massive disadvantage. Thus T has to "assume". are you that sports expert
Artosis is not a pro player, but is considered an "expert" enough to commentate professionally. He claims that CrazyZerg is a low risk build that can effectively delete Terran from the game, saying that even professional Terrans aren't able to counter it consistently. Considering the OP mentioned Artosis, I think it's more relevant to talk about why this might not be true, if there's any discussion to be had.
Note: I don't think Artosis is correct. Thus my comment about whiny terrans earlier.
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On July 31 2021 04:16 Sedo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 04:07 Puosu wrote:On July 31 2021 03:56 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:47 Puosu wrote:On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:
[quote]
as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. thats not something that tlers can discuss tho Well, anyone can discuss anything. There are sport experts that have never played at the highest levels, for instance. There's no reason to think that only people above x MMR should be allowed to voice their opinion on the subject. In this instance, Scan states that T cant safely move out, and another user says that pro T's are making assumption. The point I'm trying to get across is that in 2H vs T 1rax FE follow ups, it would be a gamble to move out simply because Zerg could have enough to kill the moveout, and thus put T at a massive disadvantage. Thus T has to "assume". are you that sports expert Artosis is not a pro player, but is considered an "expert" enough to commentate professionally. He claims that CrazyZerg is a low risk build that can effectively delete Terran from the game, saying that even professional Terrans aren't able to counter it consistently. Considering the OP mentioned Artosis, I think it's more relevant to talk about why this might not be true, if there's any discussion to be had. Note: I don't think Artosis is correct. Thus my comment about whiny terrans earlier.
Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro.
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On July 31 2021 04:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 04:16 Sedo wrote:On July 31 2021 04:07 Puosu wrote:On July 31 2021 03:56 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:47 Puosu wrote:On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote:On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:
[quote]
You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose.
Example 1:
Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there
Example 2:
Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on.
Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. thats not something that tlers can discuss tho Well, anyone can discuss anything. There are sport experts that have never played at the highest levels, for instance. There's no reason to think that only people above x MMR should be allowed to voice their opinion on the subject. In this instance, Scan states that T cant safely move out, and another user says that pro T's are making assumption. The point I'm trying to get across is that in 2H vs T 1rax FE follow ups, it would be a gamble to move out simply because Zerg could have enough to kill the moveout, and thus put T at a massive disadvantage. Thus T has to "assume". are you that sports expert Artosis is not a pro player, but is considered an "expert" enough to commentate professionally. He claims that CrazyZerg is a low risk build that can effectively delete Terran from the game, saying that even professional Terrans aren't able to counter it consistently. Considering the OP mentioned Artosis, I think it's more relevant to talk about why this might not be true, if there's any discussion to be had. Note: I don't think Artosis is correct. Thus my comment about whiny terrans earlier. Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro.
My bad. Scan definitely puts in the work and shouldn't be considered a whiny terran by any stretch. Scan's argument isn't the same as Arty's argument though, where Arty is claiming that the game has become next to impossible for Terran in a TvZ.
For context he's sitting around 2100-2200 MMR on Korean gateway, losing to zergs anywhere between 1800 and 2250 that go for this strat. He's been seeing it become very popular starting around last week. I think I remember Scan warning him about this when he was trying to teach Arty what to expect with upcoming 2.5h builds.
From what I've been watching I think the window for pushing back is very small, but the build order telegraphs it pretty hard. I disagree with Artosis that it's impossible to counter, he just needs to gitgud even if it's causing him massive distress atm.
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whatever happened to tessagi?
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On July 31 2021 04:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro.
I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here:
The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result.
I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups.
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On July 31 2021 04:38 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 04:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro.
I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups.
I don't think the quality of the games are in such a slum as you make it out to be.
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No, but it isn't as good as it used to be, for sure.
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Maybe not, but he makes it sound as if all the top players are currently blind stumbling buffoons.
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On July 31 2021 06:02 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Maybe not, but he makes it sound as if all the top players are currently blind stumbling buffoons.
No, but the skill level difference is pretty huge and then I get people arguing that "but the pros can't stop it", and it can be pretty jarring.
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Of course the infallible terrans of old couldn't have been stopped by modern crazyzerg. How silly of anyone to suggest otherwise. Metas don't just improve over time, and people don't optimize strats until they become stronger than they were in the past. Game stayed the same throughout 23 years! Stale game! Jarring!
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On July 31 2021 06:07 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 06:02 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Maybe not, but he makes it sound as if all the top players are currently blind stumbling buffoons. No, but the skill level difference is pretty huge and then I get people arguing that "but the pros can't stop it", and it can be pretty jarring.
Well, what other argument do you want to hear, other than people pointing at the currently best players and saying they cannot stop it. At least that is something observable. It is more jarring to say, the terran gods of old could have, since it is impossible to disprove. It cleverly shifts the burden of proof. "You cannot prove that the old terrans at their peak wouldn't win", therefor crazy zerg is fine.
Just to be clear, I am not on either side of this argument. I do think crazy zerg is strong, but not to the degree that it is so broken, that tvz is pointless to play out in my humble opinion. The game has been in worse states where people thought it was broken and the game naturally evolved out of it.
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EPT
