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MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
I am not saying that Crazy Zerg might not be overpowered, but we have to wait like 2 years to actually say so. 22 years of BW history taught us that there have always been strategies that looked overpowered but were ultimately solved. But it takes time, even in KESPA days it took months and years for players and coaching staff to figure stuff out. Let's see, maybe Crazy Zerg will stay overpowered for the rest of our lives, but at least give it some time. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1166 Posts
You know the drill. If you don't - probably StarCraft isn't the best fit for your mindset. | ||
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HKL23
1 Post
On July 31 2021 04:38 Nikon wrote: I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups. Why is larvas Kespa ranking relevant to today? Do you honestly believe people have gotten worse after 10 more years of playing the game? If you sent Larva or Scan back to 2006 they would probably stomp everything. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway677 Posts
They did practice a hell of a lot more back then, with team houses and all that. | ||
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confusedzerg
Russian Federation102 Posts
On August 03 2021 13:53 confusedzerg wrote: I think T might be able to counter this by going up to perhaps 3 factories when they're on 3 bases, and just nonstop pumping vultures from them. Spider mines do really well, and at the very least they provide buffer between marines and the ultras. We see it all the time in pro games: ultras dying to mines, way too excessively, even at the top level. Use the excess vulture supply to do runbys and shit. Also, to add to my own post, I think you could even transition (later on) into adding two addons to those factories. I'm talking lategame. Just alternating between 2 tanks 1 vulture/1 tank 2 vultures/3 vultures in the building queue, all of course depending on the current situation. I really think pros are gonna end up using faster spider mines to deal with this style. I mean, think about it, I really don't think irradiate is the way per se. I just think it's not exactly optimal vs crazy zerg. Mines, on the other hand, do a phat 121 damage to ultras by the time they're out. And we often see in pro games that the zerg literally moves out with 12 ultras only. Imagine if T already had lots of mines around the map? 2 factories at first, but then a total of 3 later on. They would, at the very least, fend off the ultras and give T some breathing room. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On August 04 2021 02:00 HKL23 wrote: Why is larvas Kespa ranking relevant to today? Do you honestly believe people have gotten worse after 10 more years of playing the game? If you sent Larva or Scan back to 2006 they would probably stomp everything. In the past, no one was good at optimization. even with mineral patches/mining path and so on. Current level(optimization/micro level/timing/etc) is much higher than KeSPA era. Some people may say KeSPA era players > Afreeca era players, but you can't say as a conclusion. They both played in a different latency(SC1.16 UDP/LAN is 210ms and remastered is 125ms). Also, everyone was able to learn from FP livestream + improve at the same time. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden509 Posts
On August 04 2021 16:49 LaStScan wrote: In the past, no one was good at optimization. even with mineral patches/mining path and so on. Current level(optimization/micro level/timing/etc) is much higher than KeSPA era. Some people may say KeSPA era players > Afreeca era players, but you can't say as a conclusion. They both played in a different latency(SC1.16 UDP/LAN is 210ms and remastered is 125ms). Also, everyone was able to learn from FP livestream + improve at the same time. On August 03 2021 14:25 Xenixx wrote: Just FYI for everyone. The game always supported TR24 (on LAN) and turn rate determines the MAXIMUM amount of latency it can tolerate. LAN is <5ms or effectively no latency depending on what that LAN looks like. Also turn rate is not the same thing as latency and they are getting confused. They are also probably getting confused with input delay, which is even weirder for nerds to do. I'm a Network Engineer, though I haven't looked into SC:BW in depth this dev blog entry backs this all up. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/turn-rates-matchmaking-and-you/519 As Xenixx stated, turn rate generates a max latency threshhold. That is, if latency (=~2*ping) is more than 125ms in tr24 low, the turn rate will change (to f.e tr 20 low) to avoid stutter lag (if i understood this correctly). This means players using tr24 (or tr14 in 1.16? Not sure what you are refering to here. LAN was tr24 in 1.16 too) can still have a latency of just a few ms. I have tr24 low from sweden to EAST NA (~100ms latency), but its noticably more laggy than tr24 low with someone from sweden (~10-20ms latency). | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On August 03 2021 14:25 Xenixx wrote: Just FYI for everyone. The game always supported TR24 (on LAN) and turn rate determines the MAXIMUM amount of latency it can tolerate. LAN is <5ms or effectively no latency depending on what that LAN looks like. Also turn rate is not the same thing as latency and they are getting confused. They are also probably getting confused with input delay, which is even weirder for nerds to do. I'm a Network Engineer, though I haven't looked into SC:BW in depth this dev blog entry backs this all up. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/turn-rates-matchmaking-and-you/519 You're the one getting confused here: turn rate directly affects minimum input latency, because StarCraft runs in lockstep with buffered inputs. If the turn rate is X, every 1/X seconds, all of the commands that you made are batched together and sent to the other side. However, since the StarCraft engine requires that the entire game state be known and deterministic, commands are actually scheduled to happen several turns in the future (3 for low, 4 for high, 5 for extra high). This gives time for commands to arrive on networks with jitter (which is all of them). Even if you have a magical instantaneous network connection, the input latency is going to be at least 3/TR seconds (depending on when you click, it'll be somewhere between 3 and 4 ticks). On August 04 2021 17:00 A.Alm wrote: As Xenixx stated, turn rate generates a max latency threshhold. That is, if latency (=~2*ping) is more than 125ms in tr24 low, the turn rate will change (to f.e tr 20 low) to avoid stutter lag (if i understood this correctly). This means players using tr24 (or tr14 in 1.16? Not sure what you are refering to here. LAN was tr24 in 1.16 too) can still have a latency of just a few ms. I have tr24 low from sweden to EAST NA (~100ms latency), but its noticably more laggy than tr24 low with someone from sweden (~10-20ms latency). Yes, because the latency between two points doesn't have one exact value, it's a distribution centered vaguely around the single number you've measured. If a packet takes longer than 125ms to arrive, you'll stutter, and you obviously have a lot less headroom at 100ms than 10ms. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7909 Posts
Is this crazy zerg? Seems like it is , to me, because of fast ultras Spoilers for video (not actual spoilers) + Show Spoiler + Spoilers again (maybe real spoilers) + Show Spoiler + Nice usage of ensnareee! Reminded me of the game between my baby and Fantasy, where the most amazing attack ever in the history of BW was made!!!!! | ||
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prosatan
Romania7909 Posts
 Maybe it has to do with Central Europe Time or smth... i am no good at this | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
On August 05 2021 00:04 prosatan wrote: Look at the first game in this series Team Mini vs Team Hero(sorry vs soma) Is this crazy zerg? Seems like it is , to me, because of fast ultras Spoilers for video (not actual spoilers) + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBkijrRQynQ Spoilers again (maybe real spoilers) + Show Spoiler + Nice usage of ensnareee! Reminded me of the game between my baby and Fantasy, where the most amazing attack ever in the history of BW was made!!!!! Yea that's crazy zerg. A lot of variations of it. The ensare isn't necessary to be considered crazy zerg but that seems very effective. Also, if needed they typically abuse sunkens and mass them at bases but looks like Soma didnt need to this game. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1417 Posts
On August 05 2021 00:05 prosatan wrote: WOW!!! a cake appears next to my name but my birthday is tommorow Maybe it has to do with Central Europe Time or smth... i am no good at this Happy Birthday Satan! ^_._^ I LOVE crazy Zerg! Especially when it works.. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7909 Posts
On August 05 2021 19:31 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: Happy Birthday Satan! ^_._^ I LOVE crazy Zerg! Especially when it works.. Thank youuuu!!    | ||
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rararara
115 Posts
You can see how it works but also in which timings it's very vulnerable (at least this build). A game earlier you can see him lose to a rush with the same build. It's interesting to see how much mindgame is going on with the early lingspeed and muta harasses. The interplay of confusing opponents and reacting to their speculations seems to be very important to get this build through. Fun stuff! | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On August 03 2021 10:09 BigFan wrote: The point of my post was to provide him some information about the current scene because he was severely lacking it otherwise he wouldn't have made the Larva comparison considering a ton of notable players out there have actually complimented his meteoric rise in skill. As mentioned, I would be more than willing to recommend series from over the years that really showcase the kind of skill these expros put on during ASL. Likewise, different players have different peaks and players like Shuttle, Last or Larva (there are others) are heads and shoulders above their old KeSPA self because even if they didn't have the same team environment, a lot of these guys grinded BW like madmen through the years after the switch due to various factors (love for the game, money etc...). Furthermore, it's impossible to quantify the decline, if one even agrees that it is there. How do you even measure it? You just can't so using the argument that the skill declined which is why this strategy is good again is just lazy arguing from my perspective. More so when you consider that even if you think the mechanics aren't as good as before, surely, there must be other reasons that it has resurfaced and is apparently really good right now. One thing is certain from my perspective, a lot of top Zerg players have scary good muta micro that helps make this strat that much better. Your points regarding why it's a strong strat atm are in line with my thoughts. OK. Let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose everyone is much better. Even though they don't have the team structure they used to. Even though most of the top names are immediately recogniseable to me. That alone should be a huge red flag. Usually top talent would turn over much faster than ten years. What that means is there's a shrink, no new blood coming in is causing stagnation. Eventually the top players of today will start experiencing physical issues due to getting older and pushing themselves at such a high level - elbow problems, wrist problems, we've seen it before in SC pros, it's nothing new. Perhaps that's a different conversation, but from an outsider perspective, there's a very clear downward trend and it's unlikely to get better. So, the natural question is, why haven't Terrans had the same increase in ability? People tell me it's impossible, but let's be honest - not engaging mutalisks over open ground is not a problem in the game mechanics. Honestly, I've come back to a drove of people saying terran is the hardest, zerg this, protoss that, terran players are much better but magically keep losing because of broken strats, whatever. It all just reads like low-tier balance whine. And it's not just one or two people, it's a lot of people that I've interacted in passing with over the last month. Honestly, I simply can't believe that after all of these years people have only just figured out how to properly micro mutas last month. But the sentiment is so ubiquitous, that even suggesting that perhaps the players aren't as good as you think they are and that's why they're having problems is akin to sacrilege. Honestly, at this point I don't know what is worse: me being right, or me being wrong. But what I can definitely say is that this is not the broodwar I used to stay up to 3am to watch. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland552 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On August 07 2021 00:06 Bonyth wrote: I suppose progamers could be mechanically worse compared to kespa times because they play much much fewer games daily. However, I would still take today's progamers to beat kespa progamers, because i believe experiance is more important than better clicking. And this is why I believe u're wrong about the stagnation and new blood. The old guys keep getting better (decisions, reactions and understanding) so the potential new blood needs to climb even higher with each passing year. While that is a good point to make, I could make the reverse point: teams used to have coaches that would specifically sit down with you, cut ddown your game piecemeal and help you focus on areas where you are lacking. Showing you correct decisions, etc, etc. So while I woudl disagree with you that today's understanding is that much better, I still think that what you say about new blood having to climb higher each new year is true. It used to be a lot easier, relatively speaking, to break into being a top name, simply because of the support structure that existed. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 06 2021 23:43 Nikon wrote: OK. Let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose everyone is much better. Even though they don't have the team structure they used to. Even though most of the top names are immediately recogniseable to me. That alone should be a huge red flag. Usually top talent would turn over much faster than ten years. What that means is there's a shrink, no new blood coming in is causing stagnation. Eventually the top players of today will start experiencing physical issues due to getting older and pushing themselves at such a high level - elbow problems, wrist problems, we've seen it before in SC pros, it's nothing new. Perhaps that's a different conversation, but from an outsider perspective, there's a very clear downward trend and it's unlikely to get better. So, the natural question is, why haven't Terrans had the same increase in ability? People tell me it's impossible, but let's be honest - not engaging mutalisks over open ground is not a problem in the game mechanics. Honestly, I've come back to a drove of people saying terran is the hardest, zerg this, protoss that, terran players are much better but magically keep losing because of broken strats, whatever. It all just reads like low-tier balance whine. And it's not just one or two people, it's a lot of people that I've interacted in passing with over the last month. Honestly, I simply can't believe that after all of these years people have only just figured out how to properly micro mutas last month. But the sentiment is so ubiquitous, that even suggesting that perhaps the players aren't as good as you think they are and that's why they're having problems is akin to sacrilege. Honestly, at this point I don't know what is worse: me being right, or me being wrong. But what I can definitely say is that this is not the broodwar I used to stay up to 3am to watch. You are misreading my post. I never said everyone is much better and certainly, I never said that mechanically players are all better. That would be absolutely silly. Some players are better due to reaching higher peaks and others are worse. Players like Larva, Shuttle, Last etc.. are regarded as being of the former while players like Bisu, Jaedong and Stork (ironic that it's TBLS) are the latter. As mentioned, it's also impossible to quantify this in any way. How would you even measure the performance? Look at the supply in games? reaction times? macro? Flash has went on record on his stream before to say that he would beat his past self because of how much strategy has evolved since the KeSPA days, but if his old self can learn the strategy, then he would win. You are also trying to make this some black and white situation when it is not since different players thrive in different environments. Furthermore, you even tried to use Larva to support your argument which is why you got called out on it. Yes, it's true that we still have lots of expros, but Bonyth's point is likely a major reason for it. Even if the players don't practice as much as before, they don't need as much practice to maintain their skills, and it's extremely difficult for new blood to catch up to experienced veterans of the game. We do have some new blood in the scene in the form of Soma, who was never an expro, but he is the one who repopularized 2h play afaik. There are some players like Bishop who main random, but can only play BW for x months at a time due to having to work the rest of the year to be able to do this. We have had amateurs make it into ASL since at least ASL2 and show some promising games, but we haven't had a lot of them sticking around, aka make it into ASL continuously since offline qualifiers are quite difficult. There has always been balance whine in the BW community (less than SCII one, but still there at times). Any time a player beats another and posters feel that it shouldn't have happened, you get droves of balance whine. Go check out the KSL finals LR thread between Last and Jaedong and you'll see the perfect example. Thankfully, they are mostly limited to LR threads in recent years. Well, RM has brought back some old fans, but we also got a small injection of newcomers from other games (probably more SCII than others I would presume due to SC name), but balance whine is balance whine regardless. They learned to properly micro mutas last month? what are you talking about? You still seem to be ignoring the fact that the KeSPA era finished almost a decade ago and the metagame has shifted greatly since, especially when Flash came back in 2016. It's well known and accepted in both the foreign and Korean community that the understanding of the game is miles above the KeSPA era. This also includes BO optimization which is extremely important at their level. Having more units at a faster timing can make all the difference. The one way you would know this is if you watched the progression in real time or someone documented it, but there has been no such effort to document it aside from some articles written by TL staff here and there: Flash's Starcraft Wakanda in Afreeca. I'm pretty sure Crazy Zerg will be solved at some point in the near future, much like how Zergs solved 5 rax +1 into mech, 1-1-1 etc.. It's just a matter of time. As for why this BW isn't the same one you stayed up to 3am, you tell me, but nothing stays the same. If you want some good games to reignite your passion and to see how great the players still are, I can recommend some well-known series, otherwise I can only hope that this post gave you a bit more insight into the scene. Ex. Q: From a big picture perspective, where does the focus of your 1-1-1 differ from that of sSak’s 1-1-1? A: The underlying base is very similar but the devil’s in the details. For example, sSak goes for refinery at 11 but I build it at 12. Small differences like this make a huge difference in the character of the build. Besides that, the ways in which we react to the opponent’s builds are totally different as well. My reactions focus on minimizing vultures and even wraiths whenever possible. On the other hand, sSak uses wraiths and speed-upgrade vultures quite often. My focus is on minimizing such units with an eye on a han-bang rush. In my version, a fast han-bang rush becomes possible around 8:30-9:30. Q: You mix the 1-1-1 with +1 5-rax quite effectively. Does this force Zerg to mix between 3-hatch and 18-hatch builds? A: That is a given. You always have to mix well. That said, these days, Zergs have learned to deal with the 1-1-1 within the framework of the 3-hatch opening. They will opt for the 3-hatch opening even after scouting the 1-1-1. Advancements in StarCraft are ongoing even now. People have always said that this build or that build is invincible for a short while but they have always been proven wrong. If you give pros enough time, they will find a way. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On August 07 2021 00:06 Bonyth wrote: I suppose progamers could be mechanically worse compared to kespa times because they play much much fewer games daily. However, I would still take today's progamers to beat kespa progamers, because i believe experiance is more important than better clicking. And this is why I believe u're wrong about the stagnation and new blood. The old guys keep getting better (decisions, reactions and understanding) so the potential new blood needs to climb even higher with each passing year. I think this has a lot of truth to it. The insurmountable wall of the top BW progamer in 2021 is so unbelievably hard to overcome as some new ladder talent because the former has literally played the game for over a decade and has accrued so much strategical know-how that it doesn't even matter at this point if they don't grind 12 hours a day in a team-house (which some might say is cognitively an improvement in itself), because the opposition simply cannot catch up. And even if they theoretically could, it would be a case of the old "wow this teenager isn't even risking his immediate income and the next decade to become good at a 23 year old game that is dead in the West". Like you said, this experience is more important than that little added APM that the younger guys might have. And didn't Zero mention at some point that the BW streamer pros of today know about the game a lot more than in the KeSPA days, but are mechanically inferior to their former selves because I doubt even the top zergs spend hours a day in a muta micro map for example like before | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On August 07 2021 15:07 Akio wrote: I think this has a lot of truth to it. The insurmountable wall of the top BW progamer in 2021 is so unbelievably hard to overcome as some new ladder talent because the former has literally played the game for over a decade and has accrued so much strategical know-how that it doesn't even matter at this point if they don't grind 12 hours a day in a team-house (which some might say is cognitively an improvement in itself), because the opposition simply cannot catch up. And even if they theoretically could, it would be a case of the old "wow this teenager isn't even risking his immediate income and the next decade to become good at a 23 year old game that is dead in the West". Like you said, this experience is more important than that little added APM that the younger guys might have. And didn't Zero mention at some point that the BW streamer pros of today know about the game a lot more than in the KeSPA days, but are mechanically inferior to their former selves because I doubt even the top zergs spend hours a day in a muta micro map for example like before But new talent will have way better tools to learn the game, and stand on the shoulders of the work laid down by the Kespa pros of yore. | ||
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