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On August 03 2021 05:53 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2021 05:50 krooked wrote:On August 03 2021 04:24 Magic Powers wrote:On August 02 2021 19:40 Grounded God wrote:
I also never said that its an either-or between Ultras and Defilers. I just wanted to point out that Defilers are the reason Terrans are on a timer. You're arguing against something that there's no need to argue against. Even skipping defilers altogether, terran would still be under time pressure. That's because with its existing ultra army, zerg can expand very rapidly, forcing terran to move out and hunt down fresh expansions and/or keep the ultra army small and low on HP. There are a number of good examples where zerg wins exactly in this way without needing defilers. It's because marines lose effectiveness as more ultra upgrades kick in, and being on two base terran can't keep up with zerg's mass production from 4-5 bases. Zerg grows disproportionally, and that puts terran under time pressure. PS: It makes no sense to say "no, it's not the ultras that put terran under time pressure" and then also say "I never said it's an either-or". I agree with what you're saying, but I think his point is that if the threat of defilers didn't exist, terran could kinda just sim city themselves in and trade efficiently vs ultras trying to attack, thus Terran wouldn't have to go out on the map (and risk taking bad trades vs ultras). But since defilers do exist, this option doesn't exist for Terran, they can't just barricade themselves in - because defilers will come in and ruin their day. Like I said, there are examples proving that terran can't just sit back and let zerg grow, even without defilers. It also makes no logical sense: two base SKTerran is clearly inferior to 4-5 base ultras.
Well, who's saying Terran can only sit on 2 base? With sim city and bunkers, mass marines could fend off even +5 ultras.
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Wraith obvious counter because ultras cant shoot air...
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If you would delete the Defiler from the game, it would enable Terrans to create a new defensive style, where Terrans would be able to go beyond their 2-3 Base style they currently have to use as they know that they are unable to defend their additional bases. What you describe is only possible as the Defiler exists in the game, as it forces the Terran player to play in a way which enables Ultras to end the game even without Defilers.
Why would anybody choose to face 20 Ultras on the open, when he would have the choice to just take two new expansions with his 5 groups of MM sitting on ramps. They do it because they know that if Zerg also take another two bases they soon will see Defilers in front of their bases and will be unable to defend them.
Zergs grow disproportionately because of the existence of the Defiler, which renders MM useless and thus forces the Terrans into a low base style to cope with their inability to defend versus them.
It´s not an active decision to play on 2 bases all the time, because they like it so much. It´s because they know that they are unable to cope with late game Defiler/Ultra/Ling. Mech-switch was a way to handle the dilemma MM has in late game versus Defilers.
PS: I didn´t read it properly as I focused on the "Both together form an extra strong combo" which I completely agree.
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On August 03 2021 06:21 krooked wrote:
Well, who's saying Terran can only sit on 2 base? With sim city and bunkers, mass marines could fend off even +5 ultras.
Twelve fully upgraded Marines with stim kill a fully upgraded Ultra in (0.42*140)/12= 4.9s. So running a group of Ultras up a ramp versus 2-3 control groups waiting for them is just suicide and as you described there are ways to enhance the defenders advantage even more. A dark swarm lasts roughly 40 seconds, which would mean these twelve marines (stim is 13s*3(-30health)) could kill 8 Ultras in that time, if there was a sim city and bunkers to avoid their death.
Nobody wants to play 2 base, Starcraft is a ressource based game, so you can roughly say the more bases and thus ressources you can aquire without dying or getting into a situation that disadvantages you too much the better, as it enables you to gain an advantage in the long run.
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United States42421 Posts
One thing to note is that the pro meta is the pro meta and has almost no relevance to those of us grinding away on the ladder. A build may give a slight edge to two equally skilled professionals at the top of their game but for 99.99% of players you can beat a better build by being a better player. Fancy running shoes might make the difference between two top marathon runners but if you want to outrun your friend you’re far better off training your general fitness than buying special shoes. Same shit with this.
For Scan this new style is a legit problem he needs to address. For literally everyone else in this topic you’re better off just getting better macro, multitasking, micro etc. A single build won’t make a bad player beat a good one.
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On August 03 2021 07:14 KwarK wrote:
For literally everyone else in this topic you’re better off just getting better macro, multitasking, micro etc. A single build won’t make a bad player beat a good one.
“Completely wrong. Even pro players lose to bad players all the time. Bad players can just get wins with luck, with stupid bullshit, random coincidence and scrape wins off. THIS build though is the reason why every terran is losing to zerg right now! THIS build lets bad players beat good players without even trying. They just […] and terran can’t do anything!”
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this build is so overpowered that zergs don't even use it 100% of the time in spongames vs terrans :D
From what I've seen terran needs to attack just as his upgrade for marines kicks in, that's his window to be cost effective.
Anyway i feel good for zergs about it, statistics were much above 50% in terran's favour over zerg. Hope it will get more balanced now. Imagine complaining about balance when u have the best win rate's, most bonjwas and most titles.
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United States42421 Posts
On August 03 2021 07:43 CHEONSOYUN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2021 07:14 KwarK wrote:
For literally everyone else in this topic you’re better off just getting better macro, multitasking, micro etc. A single build won’t make a bad player beat a good one. “Completely wrong. Even pro players lose to bad players all the time. Bad players can just get wins with luck, with stupid bullshit, random coincidence and scrape wins off. THIS build though is the reason why every terran is losing to zerg right now! THIS build lets bad players beat good players without even trying. They just […] and terran can’t do anything!”
But I'm a bad player. How come I don't beat pros all the time. 
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Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument.
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On August 03 2021 08:51 SolaR- wrote:
Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument.
BW isn't black or white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z.
It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up well to higher lvls.
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On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2021 08:51 SolaR- wrote:
Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument. BW isn't black and white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up to higher lvls as good either.
Yea I can agree that brood war isn't always 1-1. Meaning I can beat someone better than me if I am good at a strategy they're bad going against. Since there are many styles to the game you can be bad at one concept and good vs another.
But I am saying if hypothetically the stars align and both players are of equal skill in all facets, this strategy will win. I think the Rush vs Action series has proved this. Collectively where we currently understand on how to play TVZ in BW is wrong which makes Crazy Zerg very hard to beat. Whether its the current meta or the maps or the latency. Whatever it is, obviously terrans needs to think of something. Lets hope that they can otherwise we are going to be seeing a lot of terrans not succeed in ASL.
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On August 03 2021 09:19 SolaR- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote:On August 03 2021 08:51 SolaR- wrote:
Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument. BW isn't black and white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up to higher lvls as good either. Yea I can agree that brood war isn't always 1-1. Meaning I can beat someone better than me if I am good at a strategy they're bad going against. Since there are many styles to the game you can be bad at one concept and good vs another. But I am saying if hypothetically the stars align and both players are of equal skill in all facets, this strategy will win. I think the Rush vs Action series has proved this. Collectively where we currently understand on how to play TVZ in BW is wrong which makes Crazy Zerg very hard to beat. Whether its the current meta or the maps or the latency. Whatever it is, obviously terrans needs to think of something. Lets hope that they can otherwise we are going to be seeing a lot of terrans not succeed in ASL.
the style is definitely easier to execute, that said there's preventive counters like 1-1-1 openers
if Terran doesn't want to play a preventive style they just need to optimize their standard openers, they need to scan and confirm Z is going crazy zerg, once they do there's definitely certain timings they can hit, like a 2-4 valk timing off of a standard bio opener, it's a small change but it makes a huge difference, that allows T to regain tempo/map control
that way you hit an extremely strong/punishing timing before ultras are out, you either kill Z or slow him down a lot (by getting good trades/forcing sunks) while powering up into your standard lategame
obviously if you let Z drone and power up freely you're gonna have a ton of trouble going into the lategame, this is something P has been dealing with for 10-15+ years in PvZ.. it's much easier to whine instead of thinking of ways to overcome an obstacle  , human nature!
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On August 03 2021 09:30 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2021 09:19 SolaR- wrote:On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote:On August 03 2021 08:51 SolaR- wrote:
Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument. BW isn't black and white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up to higher lvls as good either. Yea I can agree that brood war isn't always 1-1. Meaning I can beat someone better than me if I am good at a strategy they're bad going against. Since there are many styles to the game you can be bad at one concept and good vs another. But I am saying if hypothetically the stars align and both players are of equal skill in all facets, this strategy will win. I think the Rush vs Action series has proved this. Collectively where we currently understand on how to play TVZ in BW is wrong which makes Crazy Zerg very hard to beat. Whether its the current meta or the maps or the latency. Whatever it is, obviously terrans needs to think of something. Lets hope that they can otherwise we are going to be seeing a lot of terrans not succeed in ASL. the style is definitely easier to execute, that said there's preventive counters like 1-1-1 openers if Terran doesn't want to play a preventive style they just need to optimize their standard openers, they need to scan and confirm Z is going crazy zerg, once they do there's definitely certain timings they can hit, like a 2-4 valk timing off of a standard bio opener, it's a small change but it makes a huge difference, that allows T to regain tempo/map control that way you hit an extremely strong/punishing timing, you either kill the Z or slow him down a lot (by getting good trades/forcing sunks) while powering up into your standard lategame it's much easier to whine instead of thinking of ways to overcome an obstacle , human nature!
Is crazy they have that shitty spell that cost 50 energy to scout all game long and they still cry they cant figure out what zerg is doing LOL.
Terran players have no shame man. 1-1-1 reached a 90% win rate in TvZ. I doubt this new zvt build reach 65% but they going crazy that zvt is broken smh.
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On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2021 08:51 SolaR- wrote:
Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument. BW isn't black or white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up well to higher lvls.
Crazy zerg doesn't need muta micro, in fact it doesn't even require mutas. At lower levels especially, simply going straight into evo chambers and hive tech off of 3 base and mass sunkens is extremely potent.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 03 2021 05:09 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2021 06:39 BigFan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2021 16:17 Bakuryu wrote:
this unwarranted disrespect against a leading player from our own community makes me sad. I tend to agree which is why he got moderated for it. Posters are free to disagree with others, but avoid being an ass when responding to someone who is providing information and doing a great service to the community. On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 04:38 Nikon wrote:On July 31 2021 04:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro.
I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups. This is such a dumb post. Yes there isn't a pro system now but the understanding of the game is much better than before. Players are optimizing their builds more and you see stuff that you didn't see in the Kespa era (like reavers TvP, 2 hatch muta into various transitions). Their mechanics might not be as good as before but it's still good and more than enough to compete at a high level. You mention how Terran players aren't equipped enough to deal with muta micro but have you thought about how Zergs have massively improved muta micro as well? Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. I'm glad someone commented on that post because you could just tell how clueless he is about the current scene and his larva point is just plain bad. On August 01 2021 22:19 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote:
Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. ok what's asl I don't know if this is a serious post considering you've been arguing about the skill of the current players without even knowing about asl, but if it is, I'll provide the information you requested: ASL = afreeca starleague It's the highest form of BW competition you can find in Korea nowadays, stacked with tons of former pros so it's extremely competitive. There are offline qualifiers (well, online I believe due to covid recently) which are quite difficult to get through. It's been running for 11 seasons now since 2016 so 5 years of ASL now. ASL will hopefully continue running for many more years to come. Prior to ASL, we had another starleague called SSL for SonicTV Starleague and that was the breeding grounds for ASL because it helped a lot of players who came back to compete against other expros. By the time it ended, SSL was on OGN for 2 seasons and was filled with a lot of expros too. Korea never lost their love for BW. If you want more information on SSL, you can read about it here: Sonic's Legacy: SSL's Lasting ImpactIn regards to your post above: It's true that the scene is smaller now and that's natural because the scene was slowly building itself since the professional scene ended, and only those players who had a strong enough base or didn't transition to another game stayed behind, but the meta game has greatly eclipsed the KeSPA days. Even mechanics-wise, some of the top players are still just fantastic overall. I can't remember who mentioned it in an interview that the current players are all on the same level of macro and it comes down to other ways to win games. If you want some recommendations to see this, I'm pretty sure lots of posters can provide links to their favourite ASL games. I can provide a 2017 Reflection writeup that has some links to show this point: 2017 Reflection - TeamLiquid BW AwardsAlso, the professional scene ended over 9 years ago and some players have improved immensely while others flattered or left the scene. Why are you even trying to compare Larva then to now? Is this some kind of a joke? You do realize that Larva was only on SKT T1 as a practice partner for 1-2 years at best and an old source told me that he was kicked off the team apparently? The Larva you see now, much like Last, Shuttle, Mini etc... improved greatly from their old days that it is extremely unfair to say (roughly translated) "look, he was ranked 120 back then yet he won a tournament now? low skill!!!!!". Have you seen a fpv game of Larva? Have you seen his muta micro? His ZvP skills? Have you even watched any of his games? Larva probably had some of the most miraculous growth among all BW pros, maybe aside from Soma (but Soma was never an expro). I wouldn't fault you for trying to do the comparison as bizzare as it is, because you may not be aware of all that went down in the last 9 years, but maybe this will help in regards to Larva: Larva No More - The EvolutionAll this to say that your post was very questionable because it is quite obvious that you are missing a lot of information. Much less the fact that Zerg pros are so damn good with mutas nowadays that it's insane. Personal anecdote: I remember watching a Larva fpv a long time back on eclipse where his mutas were just insanely good. He made a shot at a really weird angle which made it seem like muta range was extremely long. As a Terran player, it made me realize (I already knew, but just more confirmation) that mutas are such a tough unit to deal with that even top Terrans will fall if the Zerg has such strong micro. Add in BO optimization and you get an old strat becoming that much stronger. Honestly, players are still great overall, give credit where it's due ~ I think there's a way to acknowledge this while still reasoning that the pure mechanical level of players may still be lower than it was from like 2008-2011. Game knowledge is far more advanced now though. Is this a reasonable understanding of what changed in order for this to be viable?: The lower remastered lattency is very interesting @Lastscan and probably disproportionately advantages Zerg + BO optimisation from years of strategic development / adjustment to the quirks/differences brought on by Remastered + Mechanically, it's harder for Terran to defend than for Zerg to execute
The point of my post was to provide him some information about the current scene because he was severely lacking it otherwise he wouldn't have made the Larva comparison considering a ton of notable players out there have actually complimented his meteoric rise in skill. As mentioned, I would be more than willing to recommend series from over the years that really showcase the kind of skill these expros put on during ASL. Likewise, different players have different peaks and players like Shuttle, Last or Larva (there are others) are heads and shoulders above their old KeSPA self because even if they didn't have the same team environment, a lot of these guys grinded BW like madmen through the years after the switch due to various factors (love for the game, money etc...).
Furthermore, it's impossible to quantify the decline, if one even agrees that it is there. How do you even measure it? You just can't so using the argument that the skill declined which is why this strategy is good again is just lazy arguing from my perspective. More so when you consider that even if you think the mechanics aren't as good as before, surely, there must be other reasons that it has resurfaced and is apparently really good right now. One thing is certain from my perspective, a lot of top Zerg players have scary good muta micro that helps make this strat that much better. Your points regarding why it's a strong strat atm are in line with my thoughts.
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On August 03 2021 10:09 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote:On August 03 2021 08:51 SolaR- wrote:
Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument. BW isn't black or white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up well to higher lvls. Crazy zerg doesn't need muta micro, in fact it doesn't even require mutas. At lower levels especially, simply going straight into evo chambers and hive tech off of 3 base and mass sunkens is extremely potent.
i don't disagree, you can do a lot of various styles at lower lvls, imo that's what makes the game fun (and honestly this is viable until ~low S)
experimenting with builds and picking up mechanical skills along the way isn't a bad thing
BW is a blank canvas, what you decide to do with it is up to you, that's why there's so many distinct playstyles at the pro lvl (BeSt's macro, Bisu's multitask, Snow's micro, ZeloT's cheese, Shine's builds, EffOrt's macro, JD's multitask, Sharp's vult play, Rush's aggro macro style, FlaSh's optimized defensive play, Light's multitask etc.)
at those lvls players develop styles to complement their strengths but their playstyle is shaped by their in-game experiences, from the lowest lvl to where they are today
TLDR BW #1 bb
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On July 28 2021 03:39 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2021 03:32 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
i feel kinda sorry for the people learning about BW through artosis. the game must seem so hopeless and constantly unfair Why? Isn't that the authentic BW experience?
Yeah but then they don't get the full picture since Artosis never illustrates how unfair terran can be. Everything is OP.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
I think T might be able to counter this by going up to perhaps 3 factories when they're on 3 bases, and just nonstop pumping vultures from them. Spider mines do really well, and at the very least they provide buffer between marines and the ultras. We see it all the time in pro games: ultras dying to mines, way too excessively, even at the top level. Use the excess vulture supply to do runbys and shit.
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On July 31 2021 15:01 LaStScan wrote:
Everyone played on 210ms latency in sc1.16 version.
Currently everyone prefers to play on tr24 in sc:remastered.
Tr14 low(3000/14 =~214ms) is almost equivalent to sc1.16 udp/chaoslauncher #l2 speed. Muta micro on tr24 low(125ms) vs tr14 low(214ms) is a completely different world.
Just FYI for everyone. The game always supported TR24 (on LAN) and turn rate determines the MAXIMUM amount of latency it can tolerate. LAN is <5ms or effectively no latency depending on what that LAN looks like.
Also turn rate is not the same thing as latency and they are getting confused. They are also probably getting confused with input delay, which is even weirder for nerds to do.
I'm a Network Engineer, though I haven't looked into SC:BW in depth this dev blog entry backs this all up. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/turn-rates-matchmaking-and-you/519
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On August 03 2021 06:27 SolaR- wrote:
Wraith obvious counter because ultras cant shoot air...
Combine that with ghost, lockdown on the ultras, and you are good to go.
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EPT
