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On August 01 2021 19:26 Grounded God wrote:
Terrans are not under time pressure because of the Ultras, They just enhance a problem that occurs for quite a while. Twelve Marines kill one Ultra in 5 seconds with stim (0.42*140)/12= 4.9. So under the right circumstances Marines can handle Ultras quite well. The problem Terrans have is that they are unable to transition into a stable late game versus Zergs since Mech-Switch is gone and there is nothing that can handle late game defilers, when they reach the Terran bases. So Terrans switched to breaking Zergs before they can reach late game to avoid this Situation, but Zerg seems to figured out a way to safely reach the late game and basically auto-win right now.
The Ultras force the Terran Player in a dilemma since Ultras take the map control and the ability to stop Zergs from reaching late-game. But Terrans can´t switch into defensive, because they are unable to defend their bases when Defilers come into play. So Terrans are forced to take the fight with the Ultras on the open map, which is disadvantageous for the Marines or they just die in their base as soon as a Defiler arrives there.
So the real problem is the Defiler, which is absolutely necessary for Zergs to be able to defend their bases, but on the other hand completely kills the Terrans ability to defend and expand into a stable late game with the current MM style.
Finding an answer to a problem that kills 90% of your options as soon as it arrives, since Terran is stacked with ranged units is extremely difficult. So stopping your Enemy before reaching that point was a good way to avoid that problem.
Everything you said after that first line proves that terran is under time pressure...
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T lives matter, stop the oppression!!
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Thanks Scan.
Sorry there are so many people who know nothing, yet argue just for the sake of arguing.
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I never said Terrans aren´t under time pressure, it´s the only Matchup which even has a limited time window right now. Terrans are under time pressure because of the Defilers and not because of the Ultras as you stated. That´s what I wanted to point out, as Ultras are just means for the purpose. Defending a base just becomes pointless as soon as an invincible enemy knocks on your door. Mech-Switch was a way to transition into a style that could handle late game Zerg, but it seems to not be viable anymore.
So currently Terrans are stuck as they are unable to kill the Zergs in that limited time window and they have no real way to transition into a late game versus Zerg to fight it out in the long run.
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On August 02 2021 04:04 Grounded God wrote:
I never said Terrans aren´t under time pressure, it´s the only Matchup which even has a limited time window right now. Terrans are under time pressure because of the Defilers and not because of the Ultras as you stated. That´s what I wanted to point out, as Ultras are just means for the purpose. Defending a base just becomes pointless as soon as an invincible enemy knocks on your door. Mech-Switch was a way to transition into a style that could handle late game Zerg, but it seems to not be viable anymore.
So currently Terrans are stuck as they are unable to kill the Zergs in that limited time window and they have no real way to transition into a late game versus Zerg to fight it out in the long run.
Why does it have to be an either-or between ultras and defilers? Both together form an extra strong combo, but each option by itself creates time pressure. Zerg has both options: can either add defilers more quickly or prioritize mass production of ultras. Zerg needs more expansions precisely for this reason: because more ultras are always needed, not just defilers.
So it's not that terran is only under time pressure because of the looming defiler tech (adding to the existing ultras). It's the threat of more ultras. It's also the threat of defilers.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 01 2021 16:17 Bakuryu wrote:
this unwarranted disrespect against a leading player from our own community makes me sad.
I tend to agree which is why he got moderated for it. Posters are free to disagree with others, but avoid being an ass when responding to someone who is providing information and doing a great service to the community.
On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 04:38 Nikon wrote:On July 31 2021 04:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro.
I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups. This is such a dumb post. Yes there isn't a pro system now but the understanding of the game is much better than before. Players are optimizing their builds more and you see stuff that you didn't see in the Kespa era (like reavers TvP, 2 hatch muta into various transitions). Their mechanics might not be as good as before but it's still good and more than enough to compete at a high level. You mention how Terran players aren't equipped enough to deal with muta micro but have you thought about how Zergs have massively improved muta micro as well? Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it.
I'm glad someone commented on that post because you could just tell how clueless he is about the current scene and his larva point is just plain bad.
On August 01 2021 22:19 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote:
Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. ok what's asl
I don't know if this is a serious post considering you've been arguing about the skill of the current players without even knowing about asl, but if it is, I'll provide the information you requested:
ASL = afreeca starleague
It's the highest form of BW competition you can find in Korea nowadays, stacked with tons of former pros so it's extremely competitive. There are offline qualifiers (well, online I believe due to covid recently) which are quite difficult to get through. It's been running for 11 seasons now since 2016 so 5 years of ASL now. ASL will hopefully continue running for many more years to come.
Prior to ASL, we had another starleague called SSL for SonicTV Starleague and that was the breeding grounds for ASL because it helped a lot of players who came back to compete against other expros. By the time it ended, SSL was on OGN for 2 seasons and was filled with a lot of expros too. Korea never lost their love for BW. If you want more information on SSL, you can read about it here: Sonic's Legacy: SSL's Lasting Impact
In regards to your post above:
It's true that the scene is smaller now and that's natural because the scene was slowly building itself since the professional scene ended, and only those players who had a strong enough base or didn't transition to another game stayed behind, but the meta game has greatly eclipsed the KeSPA days. Even mechanics-wise, some of the top players are still just fantastic overall. I can't remember who mentioned it in an interview that the current players are all on the same level of macro and it comes down to other ways to win games. If you want some recommendations to see this, I'm pretty sure lots of posters can provide links to their favourite ASL games. I can provide a 2017 Reflection writeup that has some links to show this point: 2017 Reflection - TeamLiquid BW Awards
Also, the professional scene ended over 9 years ago and some players have improved immensely while others flattered or left the scene. Why are you even trying to compare Larva then to now? Is this some kind of a joke? You do realize that Larva was only on SKT T1 as a practice partner for 1-2 years at best and an old source told me that he was kicked off the team apparently? The Larva you see now, much like Last, Shuttle, Mini etc... improved greatly from their old days that it is extremely unfair to say (roughly translated) "look, he was ranked 120 back then yet he won a tournament now? low skill!!!!!". Have you seen a fpv game of Larva? Have you seen his muta micro? His ZvP skills? Have you even watched any of his games? Larva probably had some of the most miraculous growth among all BW pros, maybe aside from Soma (but Soma was never an expro). I wouldn't fault you for trying to do the comparison as bizzare as it is, because you may not be aware of all that went down in the last 9 years, but maybe this will help in regards to Larva: Larva No More - The Evolution
All this to say that your post was very questionable because it is quite obvious that you are missing a lot of information. Much less the fact that Zerg pros are so damn good with mutas nowadays that it's insane. Personal anecdote: I remember watching a Larva fpv a long time back on eclipse where his mutas were just insanely good. He made a shot at a really weird angle which made it seem like muta range was extremely long. As a Terran player, it made me realize (I already knew, but just more confirmation) that mutas are such a tough unit to deal with that even top Terrans will fall if the Zerg has such strong micro. Add in BO optimization and you get an old strat becoming that much stronger.
Honestly, players are still great overall, give credit where it's due ~
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This thread was very informative!
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“zergsagi” - artosis
also tossagi and bad player-sagi
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On August 01 2021 00:03 LaStScan wrote:
LAN is TR24 Low... There is no 0 ms ping on LAN...
This is the first time I'm hearing of this. So are you saying that Remastered LAN is 125ms and 1.16 LAN was 214ms of input delay?
Did you happen to see the games Soma and Sorry/Royal played a couple days ago on Somas stream? He did a lot of gas heavier builds but Soma didn't really go for this modern crazy zerg so I'm certainly not in a position to discuss their viability. They were interesting games, nonetheless.
VOD: https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/75755011 (First 2 hours or so)
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LAN is 1-2 ms. The ping from EU to NA is less than 125ms. I doubt the best achievable ping in scbw is 125ms.
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On August 02 2021 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:
Why does it have to be an either-or between ultras and defilers? Both together form an extra strong combo, but each option by itself creates time pressure. Zerg has both options: can either add defilers more quickly or prioritize mass production of ultras. Zerg needs more expansions precisely for this reason: because more ultras are always needed, not just defilers.
So it's not that terran is only under time pressure because of the looming defiler tech (adding to the existing ultras). It's the threat of more ultras. It's also the threat of defilers.
I also never said that its an either-or between Ultras and Defilers. I just wanted to point out that Defilers are the reason Terrans are on a timer. Terrans lack the ability to get into a defensive state and take some extra bases with MM as they are unable to handle the Defiler, when it´s used in a offensive way.
It´s a similar situation in PvZ where the Protoss has a time window to chose between trying to break a turtle Zerg or to sit back and take their own bases to fight it out in the long run. The advantage of the Protoss is that he´s able to slowly transition into a late game combination that´s able to compete with the Zergs Defiler play.
Zergs need additional bases to afford to break out of their defensive state, as Vessels tax the Zergs ressources. There are several ways to do that and doesn´t necessary need Ultras to be included.
Yes Ultras are amazing units and they seem to be able to put the Terran into an instant defensive state, which he can´t afford to be in the current meta. But the main problem is still the Defiler, which makes a defensive playstyle pointless and thus forces the Terrans to be out on the map, which he´s unable to be since the Ultras force them into the defense.
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On August 02 2021 18:32 A.Alm wrote:
LAN is 1-2 ms. The ping from EU to NA is less than 125ms. I doubt the best achievable ping in scbw is 125ms.
LAN is 125ms lowest possible. You choose the TR in lobby.
and SC1.16 LAN(UDP) is also 210ms
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On August 02 2021 23:29 LaStScan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2021 18:32 A.Alm wrote:
LAN is 1-2 ms. The ping from EU to NA is less than 125ms. I doubt the best achievable ping in scbw is 125ms. LAN is 125ms lowest possible. You choose the TR in lobby. and SC1.16 LAN(UDP) is also 210ms
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/turn-rates-matchmaking-and-you/519
The latency on tr24 low is 125ms, which means the ping is half of that. Either way, i though it was way less. Apparently they didnt update/lower this in remastered.
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Huh…I also though it was much lower. No way to get that down to 1-5 ms?
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On August 01 2021 11:33 HerbMon wrote: IM SO WEAK. This is hilarious. Thank you for the post!
hahahaha was Light being sarcastic there, like it's supposed to be easy?
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On August 02 2021 19:40 Grounded God wrote:
I also never said that its an either-or between Ultras and Defilers. I just wanted to point out that Defilers are the reason Terrans are on a timer.
You're arguing against something that there's no need to argue against. Even skipping defilers altogether, terran would still be under time pressure. That's because with its existing ultra army, zerg can expand very rapidly, forcing terran to move out and hunt down fresh expansions and/or keep the ultra army small and low on HP.
There are a number of good examples where zerg wins exactly in this way without needing defilers. It's because marines lose effectiveness as more ultra upgrades kick in, and being on two base terran can't keep up with zerg's mass production from 4-5 bases. Zerg grows disproportionally, and that puts terran under time pressure.
PS: It makes no sense to say "no, it's not the ultras that put terran under time pressure" and then also say "I never said it's an either-or".
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 03 2021 02:58 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 11:33 HerbMon wrote: IM SO WEAK. This is hilarious. Thank you for the post! hahahaha was Light being sarcastic there, like it's supposed to be easy?
I think he was being serious. 2/1 is the usual strat for crazy zerg afaik. Nothing in BW is easy lol.
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On August 02 2021 06:39 BigFan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2021 16:17 Bakuryu wrote:
this unwarranted disrespect against a leading player from our own community makes me sad. I tend to agree which is why he got moderated for it. Posters are free to disagree with others, but avoid being an ass when responding to someone who is providing information and doing a great service to the community. On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 04:38 Nikon wrote:On July 31 2021 04:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro.
I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups. This is such a dumb post. Yes there isn't a pro system now but the understanding of the game is much better than before. Players are optimizing their builds more and you see stuff that you didn't see in the Kespa era (like reavers TvP, 2 hatch muta into various transitions). Their mechanics might not be as good as before but it's still good and more than enough to compete at a high level. You mention how Terran players aren't equipped enough to deal with muta micro but have you thought about how Zergs have massively improved muta micro as well? Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. I'm glad someone commented on that post because you could just tell how clueless he is about the current scene and his larva point is just plain bad. On August 01 2021 22:19 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote:
Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. ok what's asl I don't know if this is a serious post considering you've been arguing about the skill of the current players without even knowing about asl, but if it is, I'll provide the information you requested: ASL = afreeca starleague It's the highest form of BW competition you can find in Korea nowadays, stacked with tons of former pros so it's extremely competitive. There are offline qualifiers (well, online I believe due to covid recently) which are quite difficult to get through. It's been running for 11 seasons now since 2016 so 5 years of ASL now. ASL will hopefully continue running for many more years to come. Prior to ASL, we had another starleague called SSL for SonicTV Starleague and that was the breeding grounds for ASL because it helped a lot of players who came back to compete against other expros. By the time it ended, SSL was on OGN for 2 seasons and was filled with a lot of expros too. Korea never lost their love for BW. If you want more information on SSL, you can read about it here: Sonic's Legacy: SSL's Lasting ImpactIn regards to your post above: It's true that the scene is smaller now and that's natural because the scene was slowly building itself since the professional scene ended, and only those players who had a strong enough base or didn't transition to another game stayed behind, but the meta game has greatly eclipsed the KeSPA days. Even mechanics-wise, some of the top players are still just fantastic overall. I can't remember who mentioned it in an interview that the current players are all on the same level of macro and it comes down to other ways to win games. If you want some recommendations to see this, I'm pretty sure lots of posters can provide links to their favourite ASL games. I can provide a 2017 Reflection writeup that has some links to show this point: 2017 Reflection - TeamLiquid BW AwardsAlso, the professional scene ended over 9 years ago and some players have improved immensely while others flattered or left the scene. Why are you even trying to compare Larva then to now? Is this some kind of a joke? You do realize that Larva was only on SKT T1 as a practice partner for 1-2 years at best and an old source told me that he was kicked off the team apparently? The Larva you see now, much like Last, Shuttle, Mini etc... improved greatly from their old days that it is extremely unfair to say (roughly translated) "look, he was ranked 120 back then yet he won a tournament now? low skill!!!!!". Have you seen a fpv game of Larva? Have you seen his muta micro? His ZvP skills? Have you even watched any of his games? Larva probably had some of the most miraculous growth among all BW pros, maybe aside from Soma (but Soma was never an expro). I wouldn't fault you for trying to do the comparison as bizzare as it is, because you may not be aware of all that went down in the last 9 years, but maybe this will help in regards to Larva: Larva No More - The EvolutionAll this to say that your post was very questionable because it is quite obvious that you are missing a lot of information. Much less the fact that Zerg pros are so damn good with mutas nowadays that it's insane. Personal anecdote: I remember watching a Larva fpv a long time back on eclipse where his mutas were just insanely good. He made a shot at a really weird angle which made it seem like muta range was extremely long. As a Terran player, it made me realize (I already knew, but just more confirmation) that mutas are such a tough unit to deal with that even top Terrans will fall if the Zerg has such strong micro. Add in BO optimization and you get an old strat becoming that much stronger. Honestly, players are still great overall, give credit where it's due ~
I think there's a way to acknowledge this while still reasoning that the pure mechanical level of players may still be lower than it was from like 2008-2011. Game knowledge is far more advanced now though.
Is this a reasonable understanding of what changed in order for this to be viable?:
The lower remastered lattency is very interesting @Lastscan and probably disproportionately advantages Zerg
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BO optimisation from years of strategic development / adjustment to the quirks/differences brought on by Remastered
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Mechanically, it's harder for Terran to defend than for Zerg to execute
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On August 03 2021 04:24 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2021 19:40 Grounded God wrote:
I also never said that its an either-or between Ultras and Defilers. I just wanted to point out that Defilers are the reason Terrans are on a timer. You're arguing against something that there's no need to argue against. Even skipping defilers altogether, terran would still be under time pressure. That's because with its existing ultra army, zerg can expand very rapidly, forcing terran to move out and hunt down fresh expansions and/or keep the ultra army small and low on HP. There are a number of good examples where zerg wins exactly in this way without needing defilers. It's because marines lose effectiveness as more ultra upgrades kick in, and being on two base terran can't keep up with zerg's mass production from 4-5 bases. Zerg grows disproportionally, and that puts terran under time pressure. PS: It makes no sense to say "no, it's not the ultras that put terran under time pressure" and then also say "I never said it's an either-or".
I agree with what you're saying, but I think his point is that if the threat of defilers didn't exist, terran could kinda just sim city themselves in and trade efficiently vs ultras trying to attack, thus Terran wouldn't have to go out on the map (and risk taking bad trades vs ultras). But since defilers do exist, this option doesn't exist for Terran, they can't just barricade themselves in - because defilers will come in and ruin their day.
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On August 03 2021 05:50 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2021 04:24 Magic Powers wrote:On August 02 2021 19:40 Grounded God wrote:
I also never said that its an either-or between Ultras and Defilers. I just wanted to point out that Defilers are the reason Terrans are on a timer. You're arguing against something that there's no need to argue against. Even skipping defilers altogether, terran would still be under time pressure. That's because with its existing ultra army, zerg can expand very rapidly, forcing terran to move out and hunt down fresh expansions and/or keep the ultra army small and low on HP. There are a number of good examples where zerg wins exactly in this way without needing defilers. It's because marines lose effectiveness as more ultra upgrades kick in, and being on two base terran can't keep up with zerg's mass production from 4-5 bases. Zerg grows disproportionally, and that puts terran under time pressure. PS: It makes no sense to say "no, it's not the ultras that put terran under time pressure" and then also say "I never said it's an either-or". I agree with what you're saying, but I think his point is that if the threat of defilers didn't exist, terran could kinda just sim city themselves in and trade efficiently vs ultras trying to attack, thus Terran wouldn't have to go out on the map (and risk taking bad trades vs ultras). But since defilers do exist, this option doesn't exist for Terran, they can't just barricade themselves in - because defilers will come in and ruin their day.
Like I said, there are examples proving that terran can't just sit back and let zerg grow, even without defilers. It also makes no logical sense: two base SKTerran is clearly inferior to 4-5 base ultras.
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EPT
