On July 31 2021 06:02 404AlphaSquad wrote: Maybe not, but he makes it sound as if all the top players are currently blind stumbling buffoons.
No, but the skill level difference is pretty huge and then I get people arguing that "but the pros can't stop it", and it can be pretty jarring.
Well, what other argument do you want to hear, other than people pointing at the currently best players and saying they cannot stop it. At least that is something observable. It is more jarring to say, the terran gods of old could have, since it is impossible to disprove. It cleverly shifts the burden of proof. "You cannot prove that the old terrans at their peak wouldn't win", therefor crazy zerg is fine.
Just to be clear, I am not on either side of this argument. I do think crazy zerg is strong, but not to the degree that it is so broken, that tvz is pointless to play out in my humble opinion. The game has been in worse states where people thought it was broken and the game naturally evolved out of it.
I mean, what arguement am I supposed to make here? I'm straight up being told that there is no counterplay to it because pros currently lose to it. The example game I was shown, zerg snuck in a double-gas third before the spire was even done. Terran didn't catch it and zerg leveraged that to victory. I suggested that maybe terrans need to be more aggressive during the midgame, and what's the counter-arguement? You can't be. That straight up smells like the terrans are getting outclassed and feeds right into the "older terrans would have won".
In fact, that might be the whole crux of the problem as to why it is so prevalent right now. It's rather simple to execute, as long as you have okayish muta micro. That's all there is to it: zergs can hit the execution more consistently as there are very few moving parts in the build to mess up, and as a result collect more wins overall.
But at this point it's on the terran players to figure out something to change it up and start winning more, rather than sit and complain incessantly about how hard it is.
It's such a coincidence that an "OP ZvT strat" appears on the radar right after Flash leaves for military service. It's as if terran players currently don't have someone spoon-feeding them all the right answers.
On July 31 2021 08:22 Magic Powers wrote: It's such a coincidence that an "OP ZvT strat" appears on the radar right after Flash leaves for military service. It's as if terran players currently don't have someone spoon-feeding them all the right answers.
Maybe Flash released it to zerg players and he already has the Answer. Then, when he returns and beats it with some INnoVation that looks like it took ZerOEffOrt, he's going to be the best once again. He's just letting zerg players live the FanTaSy for now, leaving the harsh Reality hit for later.
On July 31 2021 08:22 Magic Powers wrote: It's such a coincidence that an "OP ZvT strat" appears on the radar right after Flash leaves for military service. It's as if terran players currently don't have someone spoon-feeding them all the right answers.
On July 30 2021 07:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand how there exist people who look at the science vessel and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in a matchup in an RTS game.
Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following.
I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it.
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.
On July 30 2021 13:39 Dante08 wrote: Btw I don't think many people here have an idea of the "new" crazy Zerg style OP is talking about.
- You go 2 hatch or 2.5 hatch mute and get +1 attack, keep Terran in base and abuse them with muta micro (you need good muta micro to pull this off). - Get quick carapace upgrade, tech to ultras asap - Take random locations all over the map where travel distance is far. - The "craziest" thing about this variation is no zerglings, just pure upgraded ultras
The reason this is so strong is the mutas can keep Terran in base forever, and the upgraded ultras can tank forever vs marines. You don't even need zerglings with this build, all your larva goes to ultras.
Watch this game between Action and Rush to see what I'm talking about (from the 1:19 mark). Action also countered with the ultras whenever Rush moved which is essentially buying time for another expo, once you get your 4th gas the game is pretty much over. The next game on eclipse showcases an even stronger version of this build since Action took the double gas. Going tank is risky, if Zerg picks off 1-2 tanks with mutas its gg. Valk builds can work but Zerg just needs to sunken up and buy time for ultras.
I've been doing that style for a while myself, and I don't think it's that new. What you described is basically the only way 2 hatch crazy zerg can be played; the lack of lings is a forced consequence, not an active choice. With 2 hatch muta you can't afford lings in the midgame, otherwise you're going to have no larvae for drones.
On July 30 2021 07:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand how there exist people who look at the science vessel and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in a matchup in an RTS game.
Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following.
I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it.
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.
Calling somebody "incapable of learning anything" sure does not sound like hating. lol. And the next poster basically confirmed my suspicion.
On July 30 2021 07:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand how there exist people who look at the science vessel and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in a matchup in an RTS game.
Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following.
I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it.
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.
Calling somebody "incapable of learning anything" sure does not sound like hating. lol. And the next poster basically confirmed my suspicion.
Protip your suspicion has nothing to do with reality.
Everyone played on 210ms latency in sc1.16 version. Currently everyone prefers to play on tr24 in sc:remastered. Tr14 low(3000/14 =~214ms) is almost equivalent to sc1.16 udp/chaoslauncher #l2 speed. Muta micro on tr24 low(125ms) vs tr14 low(214ms) is a completely different world. Zerg can always choose to fight vs mm or not(forcing stimpack and lose medics' energy) and back then every zerg did mineral fields x 1.2~1.3 drones. Current meta is they make almost x2~2.5 drones even if they are stuck at 2 base inside 3rd hatch(2.5h muta). They make double line of sunkens and immediately go for killing turrets(initial 8 muta can 3 shot turret). This makes terran in a dilemma zone because very first 12~18mm move out can be stopped by 6~8sunkens and main base is completely vulnerable for terran.
KeSPA era crazy zerg is just always 3h muta crazy zerg build + making 3 groups of lings(900 minerals) to eat mm balls and this just makes terran very comfortable. Terran can tech up while moving out, 0 harassment done by zerg. Also zerg players back then had to use larvae all the time. Never saving up larvae.
Current 2h or 2.5h(inside 3rd) muta makes 6-8 sunkens(750~1000mineral) to stop any of mm ball attack, and at the same time zerg goes for killing terran's workers, turrets, tech timing. Current zerg players choose to afk larvae as much as possible for sunken defense and prioritize on muta micro for more damage.
Zerg doesnt always have to go crazy zerg, but with that fast carapace upgrade, they can still go for mixture build with lurker defiler and still able to pull out armor 4 ultra switches at 12~13 min mark. They use lurkers defensively and defending 2nd and 3rd base like siege tank with dark swarm.
Check out the game #8 and #9 from action vs rush ultimate battle vod. Score doesn't matter because all the 5 games action lost was non crazy zerg/3h build, but every crazy zerg strat action did, he won all 4 games.
If you also visit sponbbang website and check light's record, he lost to queen 0-4 already(2 of bo1s, 2 of bo3s) from his recent games.
Real big thx to Scan and other S-rank players right in the thick of it who drop in here from time to time to make such detailed quality posts to point or straighten out certain things. These posts do not only hold specific reliable information that I and probably most people here miss, they also always remind me how much detailed knowledge is necessary and how much has to be taken into the equation to get to a well weighed judgement about balance, about why certain stuff works or doesn't work or has a higher likelihood to do either or.
piano did 5rax against this build. went for a big MM push on the nat at exactly 9 min and stomp. though zerg make a mistake in not checking the first roaming MM group and just harass his base
On July 31 2021 15:01 LaStScan wrote: Everyone played on 210ms latency in sc1.16 version. Currently everyone prefers to play on tr24 in sc:remastered. Tr14 low(3000/14 =~214ms) is almost equivalent to sc1.16 udp/chaoslauncher #l2 speed. Muta micro on tr24 low(125ms) vs tr14 low(214ms) is a completely different world.
How would you compare that to muta micro on 0ms ping on LAN?
On July 31 2021 15:01 LaStScan wrote: Zerg can always choose to fight vs mm or not(forcing stimpack and lose medics' energy) and back then every zerg did mineral fields x 1.2~1.3 drones. Current meta is they make almost x2~2.5 drones even if they are stuck at 2 base inside 3rd hatch(2.5h muta). They make double line of sunkens and immediately go for killing turrets(initial 8 muta can 3 shot turret). This makes terran in a dilemma zone because very first 12~18mm move out can be stopped by 6~8sunkens and main base is completely vulnerable for terran.
KeSPA era crazy zerg is just always 3h muta crazy zerg build + making 3 groups of lings(900 minerals) to eat mm balls and this just makes terran very comfortable. Terran can tech up while moving out, 0 harassment done by zerg. Also zerg players back then had to use larvae all the time. Never saving up larvae.
Current 2h or 2.5h(inside 3rd) muta makes 6-8 sunkens(750~1000mineral) to stop any of mm ball attack, and at the same time zerg goes for killing terran's workers, turrets, tech timing. Current zerg players choose to afk larvae as much as possible for sunken defense and prioritize on muta micro for more damage.
Zerg doesnt always have to go crazy zerg, but with that fast carapace upgrade, they can still go for mixture build with lurker defiler and still able to pull out armor 4 ultra switches at 12~13 min mark. They use lurkers defensively and defending 2nd and 3rd base like siege tank with dark swarm.
Check out the game #8 and #9 from action vs rush ultimate battle vod. Score doesn't matter because all the 5 games action lost was non crazy zerg/3h build, but every crazy zerg strat action did, he won all 4 games.
If you also visit sponbbang website and check light's record, he lost to queen 0-4 already(2 of bo1s, 2 of bo3s) from his recent games.
So, it plays out like a classic 2hatch build, being super aggressive with mutas since you have no other choice. Personally, I don't agree that 3hatch builds do 0 harassment. They can certainly play that way, but that's abit besides the discussion. What you're telling me that within the timing window between first 7th and 8th mutas popping out and speed/chitinious plating ultras coming into play there is absolutely nothing terran can do? I'll admit I haven't looked at the maps played in tournaments in-depth, but Eclipse in particular is very playable with mech, for example, sidestepping the problem entirely.
piano did 5rax against this build. went for a big MM push on the nat at exactly 9 min and stomp. though zerg make a mistake in not checking the first roaming MM group and just harass his base
Zerg simply didn't make enough sunks. The entire point is to just invest into enough sunks so busts doesn't work. Obviously if Zerg doesn't make enough sunks, Terran just busts through and wins.
On July 31 2021 15:01 LaStScan wrote: Everyone played on 210ms latency in sc1.16 version. Currently everyone prefers to play on tr24 in sc:remastered. Tr14 low(3000/14 =~214ms) is almost equivalent to sc1.16 udp/chaoslauncher #l2 speed. Muta micro on tr24 low(125ms) vs tr14 low(214ms) is a completely different world.
How would you compare that to muta micro on 0ms ping on LAN?
On July 31 2021 15:01 LaStScan wrote: Zerg can always choose to fight vs mm or not(forcing stimpack and lose medics' energy) and back then every zerg did mineral fields x 1.2~1.3 drones. Current meta is they make almost x2~2.5 drones even if they are stuck at 2 base inside 3rd hatch(2.5h muta). They make double line of sunkens and immediately go for killing turrets(initial 8 muta can 3 shot turret). This makes terran in a dilemma zone because very first 12~18mm move out can be stopped by 6~8sunkens and main base is completely vulnerable for terran.
KeSPA era crazy zerg is just always 3h muta crazy zerg build + making 3 groups of lings(900 minerals) to eat mm balls and this just makes terran very comfortable. Terran can tech up while moving out, 0 harassment done by zerg. Also zerg players back then had to use larvae all the time. Never saving up larvae.
Current 2h or 2.5h(inside 3rd) muta makes 6-8 sunkens(750~1000mineral) to stop any of mm ball attack, and at the same time zerg goes for killing terran's workers, turrets, tech timing. Current zerg players choose to afk larvae as much as possible for sunken defense and prioritize on muta micro for more damage.
Zerg doesnt always have to go crazy zerg, but with that fast carapace upgrade, they can still go for mixture build with lurker defiler and still able to pull out armor 4 ultra switches at 12~13 min mark. They use lurkers defensively and defending 2nd and 3rd base like siege tank with dark swarm.
Check out the game #8 and #9 from action vs rush ultimate battle vod. Score doesn't matter because all the 5 games action lost was non crazy zerg/3h build, but every crazy zerg strat action did, he won all 4 games.
If you also visit sponbbang website and check light's record, he lost to queen 0-4 already(2 of bo1s, 2 of bo3s) from his recent games.
So, it plays out like a classic 2hatch build, being super aggressive with mutas since you have no other choice. Personally, I don't agree that 3hatch builds do 0 harassment. They can certainly play that way, but that's abit besides the discussion. What you're telling me that within the timing window between first 7th and 8th mutas popping out and speed/chitinious plating ultras coming into play there is absolutely nothing terran can do? I'll admit I haven't looked at the maps played in tournaments in-depth, but Eclipse in particular is very playable with mech, for example.
1. Mech isn't what is being discussed here. Mech has its own issues.
2. Terran can try to bust, but if Zerg builds enough sunks, that won't work. Terran can try to drop, but its extremely risky considering 1) mutas are out in large numbers and 2) scourge on patrol
3. The "solution" has been to make a ton of rax and camp outside nat and threaten a bust to force maximum amount of sunkens, while getting quick upgrades, while irradiating ultras while Z waits for upgs, forcing ultras to engage into the massive upgraded m&m force. The issue with this approach, however, is that as long as there exists enough sunkens, the remaining terran army cannot bust the nat, nor stop Zergs economic growth. The next round of +4 ultras simply destroys the MM ball, and mass ling / ultra is a-moved towards Terrans base.
piano did 5rax against this build. went for a big MM push on the nat at exactly 9 min and stomp. though zerg make a mistake in not checking the first roaming MM group and just harass his base
Zerg simply didn't make enough sunks. The entire point is to just invest into enough sunks so busts doesn't work. Obviously if Zerg doesn't make enough sunks, Terran just busts through and wins.
and thats the point, the zerg didnt think the 5rax was threatening enough and try to be tech greedy and neglect sunks. if he try to put sunks earlier he would significantly delay his tech. if terran can make assumptions, so can zerg especially when they are both going through the revolving door of meta as they try to adapt to each others unique responses. i dont expect a clean thought out reply from you though considering your extremely terran biased viewpoint and obvious terran victim narrative
why don't you try 5 rax out and push at 9 min? or your 1300 mmr can't handle the mechanics needed?
piano did 5rax against this build. went for a big MM push on the nat at exactly 9 min and stomp. though zerg make a mistake in not checking the first roaming MM group and just harass his base
Zerg simply didn't make enough sunks. The entire point is to just invest into enough sunks so busts doesn't work. Obviously if Zerg doesn't make enough sunks, Terran just busts through and wins.
and thats the point, the zerg didnt think the 5rax was threatening enough and try to be tech greedy and neglect sunks. if he try to put sunks earlier he would significantly delay his tech. if terran can make assumptions, so can zerg especially when they are both going through the revolving door of meta as they try to adapt to each others unique responses. i dont expect a clean thought out reply from you though considering your extremely terran biased viewpoint and obvious terran victim narrative
why don't you try 5 rax out and push at 9 min? or your 1300 mmr can't handle the mechanics needed?
1. What exactly is your point? Terrans at the highest level obviously force sunks, and Zergs at the highest level make enough sunks. Just because you found a game where the Zerg just falls over because he didn't make enough sunks doesn't say anything about issues with crazy zerg.
2. There is no victim narrative here. I honestly have no idea what you are even talking about. Terrans struggle with crazy zerg, which is the point of discussion here. If it were as easy as simply doing +1 5rax, then it wouldn't be discussed nor be an issue for Terrans at the highest levels.
3. I don't think 1300 MMR Zergs are executing the crazy z strategy very carefully - they would probably be extremely to bust or just dropship. Luckily, whatever 1300 MMR Zergs are doing are completely besides the point of discussion. But I understand that attempting to berate me is your best bet as a discussion tactic.
EPT
