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On July 31 2021 00:40 Nikon wrote:
"I can't move out cause my opponent might kill me."
It's exactly what you said. People more than a decade ago found ways to do it, why can't people now?
I really don't understand what you are trying to say here - are you saying that to not just move out freely at any point of the game is defeatist? If you're doing 2rax acad, 5rax +1, or whatever conceivable build off of 1rax FE, then you're just not able to freely move out at that timing vs 2H.
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Pros in the past have done it vs 2 hatch, 3 hatch, 1 hatch you name it. There's just a bunch of people trying to convince me that nobody can do something because they can't do it, amongst other things.
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On July 31 2021 00:52 Nikon wrote:
Pros in the past have done it vs 2 hatch, 3 hatch, 1 hatch you name it. There's just a bunch of people trying to convince me that nobody can do something because they can't do it, amongst other things.
What exactly do you mean? All of these Z builds has different muta timing. You are safe to move out for longer vs 3H because of the later mutas. Vs 2H muta, you cannot move out because the units you have loses to the initial mutas. If oyu go +1 5rax you have less units than 2rax acad. If you go one base acad build you can move out, but you're so behind that you are essentially all in.
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On July 31 2021 00:56 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 00:52 Nikon wrote:
Pros in the past have done it vs 2 hatch, 3 hatch, 1 hatch you name it. There's just a bunch of people trying to convince me that nobody can do something because they can't do it, amongst other things. What exactly do you mean? All of these Z builds has different muta timing. You are safe to move out for longer vs 3H because of the later mutas. Vs 2H muta, you cannot move out because the units you have loses to the initial mutas. If oyu go +1 5rax you have less units than 2rax acad. If you go one base acad build you can move out, but you're so behind that you are essentially all in.
No, no they don't. What I'm saying is that people in the past have been perfectly able to fight muta with M&Ms, regardless of the opening build of the zerg. In fact, 2hatch muta has so little map control in the early stages that a zerg putting down a third expansion before the spire is finished and getting to keep it is squarely a massive error by the T player.
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There was a very similar discussion in a different thread that krooked was having with a few people including myself. I can tell you that he's not interested in learning, he believes he's right about terran being the most difficult race while zerg can just sit back and relax, and that's just that. No ifs, ands or buts, he's always right no matter what.
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As someone who IS interested in learning, and not trying to knuckle someone under because they "don't understand", can someone provide me some examples of the modern 2h muta -> ultras being broken consistently by terran? Sorry if I don't understand someone positing theoreticals about spires being taken down by an emaciated army on large cross-spawn maps.
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On July 31 2021 01:39 Sedo wrote:
As someone who IS interested in learning, and not trying to knuckle someone under because they "don't understand", can someone provide me some examples of the modern 2h muta -> ultras being broken consistently by terran? Sorry if I don't understand someone positing theoreticals about spires being taken down by an emaciated army on large cross-spawn maps.
Have you considered that maybe terrans losing is due to not being as good players as the zergs beating them?
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Have you considered that maybe terrans losing is due to not being as good players as the zergs beating them?
You're a genius!
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You know what, obviously you're not interested in an arguement and I'm not going to look through hundreds of games to find the ones where 2h muta gets held by terran and then dies immediately so I guess you win this one.
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On July 31 2021 02:32 Nikon wrote:
You know what, obviously you're not interested in an arguement and I'm not going to look through hundreds of games to find the ones where 2h muta gets held by terran and then dies immediately so I guess you win this one.
So basically, you've given up on teaching me from the get go, because you believe your argument is that much better than others that you don't have to support it with evidence for people to understand it. This is exactly what you're saying.
Kind of a shame, I even made an account so you could help me understand. At least you're not asking me to do your homework for you.
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On July 31 2021 02:34 Sedo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 02:32 Nikon wrote:
You know what, obviously you're not interested in an arguement and I'm not going to look through hundreds of games to find the ones where 2h muta gets held by terran and then dies immediately so I guess you win this one. So basically, you've given up on teaching me from the get go, because you believe your argument is that much better than others that you don't have to support it with evidence for people to understand it. This is exactly what you're saying. Kind of a shame, I even made an account so you could help me understand. At least you're not asking me to do your homework for you.
No, I've given up on you cause you opened up with misrepresenting what I said then asking for examples. You don't want an arguement, you want to feel more right than someone on the internet. I'm going to let you have that one. You're right.
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On July 31 2021 02:43 Nikon wrote:you opened up with misrepresenting what I said then asking for examples
Again, please elucidate.
I don't care about being right, I just want to know more.
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On July 31 2021 02:44 Sedo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 02:43 Nikon wrote:you opened up with misrepresenting what I said then asking for examples Again, please elucidate. I don't care about being right, I just want to know more.
I'm sorry, English isn't my first language so I don't know words such as elucidate, positing, emaciated and laundry.
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On July 31 2021 02:47 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 02:44 Sedo wrote:On July 31 2021 02:43 Nikon wrote:you opened up with misrepresenting what I said then asking for examples Again, please elucidate. I don't care about being right, I just want to know more. I'm sorry, English isn't my first language so I don't know words such as elucidate, positing, emaciated and laundry.
Or "examples".
edit: if there's anyone else in the thread that would like to help me understand, that would be nice. I'm not sure why this fellow with over 5000 posts isn't very helpful. If it can be consistently beaten, there should be a lot of footage to draw from as resources for debunking whiny terrans.
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This series of posts is the kind of low effort trolling, i keep coming back for.
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On July 31 2021 01:20 Magic Powers wrote:
There was a very similar discussion in a different thread that krooked was having with a few people including myself. I can tell you that he's not interested in learning, he believes he's right about terran being the most difficult race while zerg can just sit back and relax, and that's just that. No ifs, ands or buts, he's always right no matter what.
How is that even slightly relevant to what is being discussed in this thread?
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On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling.
Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than moving out in the first place. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc.
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On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc.
Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there.
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On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there.
The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense...
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On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote:On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote:On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote:
First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc.
Forgive me but I'm failing to see the options that are not gambles here.
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EPT
