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Crazy Zerg - Page 11

Forum Index > BW General
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TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2629 Posts
August 07 2021 20:13 GMT
#201
Not sure how the comparison between kespa and modern players was brought into this topic, but I think Flash himself said that kespa players have higher skill but players nowadays have more understanding of the game, so the latter would probably beat the former, but if you give the former some time to learn the new knowledge, they would beat modern players.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway684 Posts
August 07 2021 20:48 GMT
#202
If you look at the game from the kespa times, the macro, army controll and overall tempo of the game looks much better than the ASL games.
To me at least.

And we act like the strategies and build orders they had in that time are somehow obsolete?
The game hasnt changed one bit since those days so they are just as valid now as they were back in the days.

I believe this game is so mechanincally dependent that a pro from 2010 would beat an asl champion of todays day and age.

The mechanics of 12-15 hours of practice in a teamhouse with other super good pros cant be swept under the rug imo.
Puosu
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
6984 Posts
August 07 2021 21:44 GMT
#203
On August 08 2021 05:48 Timebon3s wrote:
If you look at the game from the kespa times, the macro, army controll and overall tempo of the game looks much better than the ASL games.
To me at least.

And we act like the strategies and build orders they had in that time are somehow obsolete?
The game hasnt changed one bit since those days so they are just as valid now as they were back in the days.

I believe this game is so mechanincally dependent that a pro from 2010 would beat an asl champion of todays day and age.

The mechanics of 12-15 hours of practice in a teamhouse with other super good pros cant be swept under the rug imo.

but it seems that at least flash, zero and scan disagree with you

?
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway684 Posts
August 07 2021 23:01 GMT
#204
Well they know better than me
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-08-07 23:48:50
August 07 2021 23:47 GMT
#205
On August 08 2021 02:11 krooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2021 15:07 Akio wrote:
On August 07 2021 00:06 Bonyth wrote:
I suppose progamers could be mechanically worse compared to kespa times because they play much much fewer games daily. However, I would still take today's progamers to beat kespa progamers, because i believe experiance is more important than better clicking. And this is why I believe u're wrong about the stagnation and new blood. The old guys keep getting better (decisions, reactions and understanding) so the potential new blood needs to climb even higher with each passing year.

I think this has a lot of truth to it. The insurmountable wall of the top BW progamer in 2021 is so unbelievably hard to overcome as some new ladder talent because the former has literally played the game for over a decade and has accrued so much strategical know-how that it doesn't even matter at this point if they don't grind 12 hours a day in a team-house (which some might say is cognitively an improvement in itself), because the opposition simply cannot catch up. And even if they theoretically could, it would be a case of the old "wow this teenager isn't even risking his immediate income and the next decade to become good at a 23 year old game that is dead in the West". Like you said, this experience is more important than that little added APM that the younger guys might have.

And didn't Zero mention at some point that the BW streamer pros of today know about the game a lot more than in the KeSPA days, but are mechanically inferior to their former selves because I doubt even the top zergs spend hours a day in a muta micro map for example like before


But new talent will have way better tools to learn the game, and stand on the shoulders of the work laid down by the Kespa pros of yore.


That's exactly right. Armchair posters frequently downplay the contributions of theorycrafters who may be strategically-minded but not have the mechanics to execute at a pro level, when in fact it is those theorycrafters who are the true gateway toward innovating solutions in order to continue evolving the metagame.

For example, on Grubby's War3 streams, he has a paid incentive to follow certain build directives. Most of the time they're silly (play your next game using only casters), but there is a guy in his chat named SaveOrcas who frequently donates to this incentive with new legitimate tryhard build order ideas. Grubby is known as an innovative player himself, so when he was playing many of SaveOrcas' request builds which were centered around Farseer first + mass Headhunters and found initial success, Grubby acknowledged that "there may be something viable here, let's try this in a few more high-skill games and see if we can develop it further". It eventually shifted game balance in multiple matchups and became a core build option for world-class Orc players, born in the year 2020 from the mind of a guy in the chat who did his research.

The ideas for beating a strategy can come from anywhere, and although only pros will be able to optimize them, outright dismissing them with gatekeeper language like "you're not S-Rank so you don't get it" does nothing to further the cause and only contributes to circular logic and continued frustration for viewers and players alike.
Moderator
GuiBz
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada108 Posts
August 08 2021 17:35 GMT
#206
I think it is all about delaying that 3rd base. Everything is gas expensive for the zerg. There's that little timing that anyone knows where T go out with stim and 2 medics before the Mutas. I think we should use that little timing to find the 3rd base and denying it.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
August 08 2021 18:13 GMT
#207
Yeah now WC3 aint BW.

BW top players are purely koreans and who can speak to them? Only koreans.

So brainstorming new strats without koreans playing em wont help anyone.

So in the end you invent a strat which works vs noobs.

Also there are plenty more ways of punishing new bold strats in BW.
-.-
LinYu_roy
Profile Joined November 2004
Germany21 Posts
August 08 2021 21:36 GMT
#208
On August 08 2021 05:13 TMNT wrote:
Not sure how the comparison between kespa and modern players was brought into this topic, but I think Flash himself said that kespa players have higher skill but players nowadays have more understanding of the game, so the latter would probably beat the former, but if you give the former some time to learn the new knowledge, they would beat modern players.


+1

Zero has said the same, if I remember correctly. He said he used to play 30+ games per day back then, and if he played any less than that he could feel that his micro was off.
krooked
Profile Joined May 2011
376 Posts
August 08 2021 23:25 GMT
#209
On August 09 2021 02:35 GuiBz wrote:
I think it is all about delaying that 3rd base. Everything is gas expensive for the zerg. There's that little timing that anyone knows where T go out with stim and 2 medics before the Mutas. I think we should use that little timing to find the 3rd base and denying it.


This can be strong, but its a complete gamble. If Z makes enough units and wipes it out, you're extremely far behind.
engineNOVA
Profile Joined April 2021
United States67 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-08-11 14:36:16
August 11 2021 14:33 GMT
#210
Nevermind. Can't figure out how to delete this post ...
With lings like these, who needs friends?
superovermind
Profile Joined May 2020
4 Posts
September 01 2021 05:52 GMT
#211
What's the build order for this?
Ultralisks every day
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3351 Posts
September 01 2021 13:54 GMT
#212
On September 01 2021 14:52 superovermind wrote:
What's the build order for this?


Crazy zerg is more a type of transition and not really a build order.

Essentially you get ground carapace upgrade when you can, then transition to hive during the muta phase (when your 3rd is up) while skipping lurkers and aim for ultras/defilers/cracklings with strong carapace upgrade and try to get more bases.

Horang2 fan
krooked
Profile Joined May 2011
376 Posts
September 01 2021 22:46 GMT
#213
On September 01 2021 22:54 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2021 14:52 superovermind wrote:
What's the build order for this?


Crazy zerg is more a type of transition and not really a build order.

Essentially you get ground carapace upgrade when you can, then transition to hive during the muta phase (when your 3rd is up) while skipping lurkers and aim for ultras/defilers/cracklings with strong carapace upgrade and try to get more bases.



Another way to look at it is as a playstyle, like mech vs bio. Crazy zergs most defining trait is imo 1) ultras 2) lack of defilers 3) fast carapace upgrades.

Within these parameteres, players like ZeLoT gets some lurkers, others skip mutas entirely, or get a fair number of mutas. Some take 3rd before gas, other do it from 2H mutas and so on.
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States903 Posts
September 02 2021 15:05 GMT
#214
On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2021 08:51 SolaR- wrote:
Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument.


BW isn't black or white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z.

It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up well to higher lvls.

Only make 7 mutas then? Terran has to respect the initial mutalisk production anyway, I had a guy not make that many turrets and he still lost like 10 SCVs to only 7 mutas. Not like he can counter when I have 7 sunkens in the front

You can literally do it without mutas as well, but you need a ton of sunkens and some zergling/scourge for patrolling drops
des
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States507 Posts
October 07 2021 23:11 GMT
#215
I"m horney

User was warned for this post.
my larvae bring all the zerg to the yard
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
October 23 2021 01:00 GMT
#216
So is crazyzerg still OP?
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Crimson)S(hadow
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Philippines526 Posts
October 23 2021 02:11 GMT
#217
never has been and never will be, soma did everything artosis complained about and still lost to rush. crazy zerg being OP is terran propaganda
"It's the end of the BW era which i devoted everything to for 10 years. I tried playing sc2, but my BW memories run too deep; I felt like I was playing an entirely different game" -ToSsGirL
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10114 Posts
October 23 2021 03:14 GMT
#218
On October 23 2021 11:11 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
never has been and never will be, soma did everything artosis complained about and still lost to rush. crazy zerg being OP is terran propaganda

People keep making the mistake of listening to Artosis, nothing new.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
October 23 2021 05:40 GMT
#219
On October 23 2021 12:14 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2021 11:11 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
never has been and never will be, soma did everything artosis complained about and still lost to rush. crazy zerg being OP is terran propaganda

People keep making the mistake of listening to Artosis, nothing new.


Man, its going to be weird when his kids can read english and start exploring TL and see us all BMing him and then wonders why and then discovers all the finely aged vintage artosis whine threads from the early to mid 2000s.

Would probably have an identity crisis if I was one of those Artosilings.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
flashimba
Profile Joined May 2011
225 Posts
October 23 2021 13:24 GMT
#220
On October 23 2021 11:11 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
never has been and never will be, soma did everything artosis complained about and still lost to rush. crazy zerg being OP is terran propaganda


Guardians are part of crazy zerg now?
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