EPTCrazy Zerg
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CicadaSC
United States1548 Posts
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SpaNiarD
Spain346 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5534 Posts
On July 27 2021 18:40 SpaNiarD wrote: Can you specify a little bit more what is that strat about? The Zerg bunkers up on 3 gas and rushes to Ultras with armor upgrades. | ||
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iFU.spx
Russian Federation368 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
A zerg who beat Arto today, he advised Arto that: make tank but Arto didn't believe in him. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6542 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2257 Posts
here is flash beating crazy zerg in 2009... + Show Spoiler + here is JD using crazy zerg vs flash in 2009... + Show Spoiler + but tbh, the way zergs are using crazy zerg on Eclipse is kinda BS imo. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1538 Posts
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sjukungen2
2 Posts
Forced Zerg to go 2h or 2.5h every game like jjabje kind of invented and it flipped the meta | ||
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Puosu
6984 Posts
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 28 2021 02:50 Puosu wrote: Its not just crazy zerg, Artosis has concluded that defilers are overpowered as well and that zerg is the new protoss etc. Yeah, those continious buffs on defilers in the last 10 years have really made them a force of reckoning unseen before in SC:BW. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
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Highgamer
1402 Posts
On July 28 2021 03:32 CHEONSOYUN wrote: i feel kinda sorry for the people learning about BW through artosis. the game must seem so hopeless and constantly unfair Why? Isn't that the authentic BW experience? | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On July 27 2021 23:12 iFU.pauline wrote: I remember EffOrt grinding up ladder vs "noobs" doing this. There is no way it is a reliable thing to do. Just don't do that, you will lose. Crazy zerg is viable as a curveball strat and can be worth having in your repertoire for series or ladder play - it's not designed to be reliable so much as to punish a certain rigidity in Terran play. It's definitely not something you should have as the backbone of your gameplay as it's incredibly exploitable if your opponent knows it's coming, but that doesn't make it a bad strat or an autoloss. | ||
GTR
51423 Posts
On July 27 2021 21:30 XenOsky wrote: crazy zerg is really old... in fact it was used during PL days on certain maps... here is flash beating crazy zerg in 2009... + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRCPlDJjIiU&ab_channel=nevake here is JD using crazy zerg vs flash in 2009... + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1X32S-pWwY&ab_channel=VioleTAK but tbh, the way zergs are using crazy zerg on Eclipse is kinda BS imo. a k-pop performer nearly beat an mbcgame trainee with it too lol | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On July 28 2021 03:32 CHEONSOYUN wrote: i feel kinda sorry for the people learning about BW through artosis. the game must seem so hopeless and constantly unfair Nobody learns StarCraft from his stream, even himself. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
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VasiLk
1 Post
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 28 2021 22:06 LaStScan wrote: it's not the same crazy zerg as old style one. Not a lot of people in the foreign community will believe anything Terran players say though. It's because of Artosis spreading the rage for decades and we've kind of gotten used to humouring him, but very few people will actually believe anything he says. If what other people say coincides with what he says, it becomes false by association and then meh. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6542 Posts
On July 28 2021 22:06 LaStScan wrote: it's not the same crazy zerg as old style one. What is different ? Do you have some vod ? Im curious what makes this build so stronger now. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 28 2021 22:48 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What is different ? Do you have some vod ? Im curious what makes this build so stronger now. From what I undestand what makes it so strong is Terran sitting on 2base for 15 minutes then suffering death to 4-5 base zerg. Then again it's entirely possible it's something else, but my source material is somewhat limited. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1593 Posts
On July 29 2021 03:21 Nikon wrote: From what I undestand what makes it so strong is Terran sitting on 2base for 15 minutes then suffering death to 4-5 base zerg. Then again it's entirely possible it's something else, but my source material is somewhat limited. Terran or Artosis? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6542 Posts
On July 29 2021 03:21 Nikon wrote: From what I undestand what makes it so strong is Terran sitting on 2base for 15 minutes then suffering death to 4-5 base zerg. Then again it's entirely possible it's something else, but my source material is somewhat limited. Do you know what is the crazy zerg strategy? if you dont I will explain it simple. Mutalisk + zerglings + early evolution chamber to get a +1 carapace. then u get hive and ultralisk cavern and make ultralisk as fast as possible from 3 gazes. There are multiple variations but the basic concept is that. What you mention. doesnt sound vrazy zerg to me. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 29 2021 03:51 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Do you know what is the crazy zerg strategy? if you dont I will explain it simple. Mutalisk + zerglings + early evolution chamber to get a +1 carapace. then u get hive and ultralisk cavern and make ultralisk as fast as possible from 3 gazes. There are multiple variations but the basic concept is that. What you mention. doesnt sound vrazy zerg to me. Maybe I should try that. I usually get lurkers and/or defilers, but terrans seem to be going 2port vessel insanely early so relying on lurkers/dark swarm for defence is extra tough. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3843 Posts
On July 29 2021 03:58 Nikon wrote: Maybe I should try that. I usually get lurkers and/or defilers, but terrans seem to be going 2port vessel insanely early so relying on lurkers/dark swarm for defence is extra tough. Exactly that. Crazy zerg counters certain transitions like 2 port vessel. In the early days it was normal for terrans to transition from m&m into siege tanks in most games. Crazy zerg would've performed relatively poorly during those days, but ever since SKTerran hopped onto the radar it become more viable. This is especially true on maps where it's easier to defend expansions with fewer sunkens against pure m&m. So this "new" strat is not a winning formula in and of itself, it's just a curveball that "steals" wins from terrans who don't adapt in some capacity. tedster's analysis is spot on. I think if terran players start to transition into siege tanks more often and/or more quickly, we'll likely see crazy zerg lose some of its viability. Because tanks should be pretty much the hardest counter to it. A key question is how predictable crazy zerg really is. Can it be figured out in time or can it be disguised as a standard strat? If it's the latter, then a tank transition would either be a bit of a gamble or it would lose effectiveness due to tanks arriving late. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 28 2021 03:26 Nikon wrote: Yeah, those continious buffs on defilers in the last 10 years have really made them a force of reckoning unseen before in SC:BW. I dont understand how there exist people who look at the defiler and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in an RTS game. But that is the nature of BW. Everything is broken in so many ways and everyone just has to deal with it. But by modern game design standards, something like a defiler in its current form would never exist in a game imo, due to how unfair/unfun it feels to play against. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following. | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
On July 30 2021 07:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand how there exist people who look at the science vessel and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in a matchup in an RTS game. Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following. eh maybe in tvz, but it's spell EMP in tvp is less than spectacular. | ||
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
On July 30 2021 08:08 SolaR- wrote: eh maybe in tvz, but it's spell EMP in tvp is less than spectacular. depends on the player, like everything in BW | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 28 2021 22:48 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What is different ? Do you have some vod ? Im curious what makes this build so stronger now. I'm interested in this as well. Light's point about 2/1 heavy mnm vs crazy zerg is afaik the standard so how is this new style any different from the old one? Do zergs somehow have better upgrades? Are zergs better at using minimal units so they stack more resources for more ultras? Is it much more to do with maps now? What is it about this strat that's so different? | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
On July 30 2021 10:16 Timebon3s wrote: Wouldn’t 1 or 2 factory vulture with mines be devastating to this strategy? crazy zerg's hard counter is a ~2-3 valk bio push (FlaSh did an extremely strong/optimized version of this b.o in a recent ASL season), the problem for T is recognizing the build ahead of time you can also force Z off of crazy zerg with certain openers, like 1-1-1 for example (makes it easy and flexible for T to go into valks) in standard meta crazy zerg is stronger cus ppl are better at muta microing, they gain map control with efficient muta trades and go into ultras w/ an extremely strong eco (its easy to power once you have map control) if crazy zerg becomes an issue terrans are just gonna start mixing in 1-1-1's, thats how the meta changes.. that said i have no idea if crazy zerg is an issue at the highest lvl | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 30 2021 07:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand how there exist people who look at the science vessel and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in a matchup in an RTS game. Anyways, probably best not to learn the game or "meta" from whatever random stuff Artosis says. He's either incapable of learning anything despite a positive environment over the years, or deliberately saying whatever he thinks would give him a loyal following. I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On July 30 2021 11:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it. The BW community on TL hates everything lmao, every time something nice comes up and BW TL will find some way to hate on it. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
- You go 2 hatch or 2.5 hatch mute and get +1 attack, keep Terran in base and abuse them with muta micro (you need good muta micro to pull this off). - Get quick carapace upgrade, tech to ultras asap - Take random locations all over the map where travel distance is far. - The "craziest" thing about this variation is no zerglings, just pure upgraded ultras The reason this is so strong is the mutas can keep Terran in base forever, and the upgraded ultras can tank forever vs marines. You don't even need zerglings with this build, all your larva goes to ultras. Watch this game between Action and Rush to see what I'm talking about (from the 1:19 mark). Action also countered with the ultras whenever Rush moved which is essentially buying time for another expo, once you get your 4th gas the game is pretty much over. The next game on eclipse showcases an even stronger version of this build since Action took the double gas. Going tank is risky, if Zerg picks off 1-2 tanks with mutas its gg. Valk builds can work but Zerg just needs to sunken up and buy time for ultras. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
On July 30 2021 11:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it. https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/488983-artosis-says-sc2-is-more-strategic-than-bw | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On July 30 2021 13:39 Dante08 wrote: Btw I don't think many people here have an idea of the "new" crazy Zerg style OP is talking about. - You go 2 hatch or 2.5 hatch mute and get +1 attack, keep Terran in base and abuse them with muta micro (you need good muta micro to pull this off). - Get quick carapace upgrade, tech to ultras asap - Take random locations all over the map where travel distance is far. - The "craziest" thing about this variation is no zerglings, just pure upgraded ultras The reason this is so strong is the mutas can keep Terran in base forever, and the upgraded ultras can tank forever vs marines. You don't even need zerglings with this build, all your larva goes to ultras. Watch this game between Action and Rush to see what I'm talking about (from the 1:19 mark). Action also countered with the ultras whenever Rush moved which is essentially buying time for another expo, once you get your 4th gas the game is pretty much over. The next game on eclipse showcases an even stronger version of this build since Action took the double gas. Going tank is risky, if Zerg picks off 1-2 tanks with mutas its gg. Valk builds can work but Zerg just needs to sunken up and buy time for ultras. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nUXPPZMWFU&t=5708s I was going to provide some VODs to support my previous post, but this one is pretty good one. I know there will be people skipping through and just see the score that rush was leading the score in this 9 games total ultimate battle so I'll make a short summary. every single of 2h muta into chamber carapace playstyle that action pulled out, he won every game with it. almost half of the games they played, action chose to do 3h build and there were quite a lot of build order lose too. the current crazy zerg build that zerg players are doing is completely pure muta into mass drone, sunken lines and immediately switching to ultras. not even planning to add a macro hatch(like main base another hatchery for more larvae). the old style of ZvT was like numbers of mineral x1.2~1.3 for drones, but nowadays they just pump out drones a lot. even if they are stuck at 2 base, they make almost 40-50 drones. not using much of lings because they are useless | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 30 2021 15:03 CHEONSOYUN wrote: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/488983-artosis-says-sc2-is-more-strategic-than-bw Ok? What is this link supposed to tell me? Is it a justification that artosis deserves to be hated for stating this opinion 6 years ago? Because if so, I dont think i have ever met people more insecure about their game, if they cannot even stand this simple “criticism”. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland553 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 30 2021 11:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it. Artosis isn't hated in the BW community. It's just the fact that he makes absolute statements about how imbalanced the game is against terran and that's why he loses while being far, far from the top of the skill curve. He's been doing that for as long as I remember, and people don't take his statements seriously. On July 30 2021 06:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: I dont understand how there exist people who look at the defiler and do not see it as the most insane unit ever conceived in an RTS game. But that is the nature of BW. Everything is broken in so many ways and everyone just has to deal with it. But by modern game design standards, something like a defiler in its current form would never exist in a game imo, due to how unfair/unfun it feels to play against. It's exactly stuff like this. The vessel is just as unfun to play against, yet you don't see me frothing at the mouth how unfair it is. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1166 Posts
- Artosis is a vocal chobo. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7926 Posts
Artosis is sometimes upset because he thinks Terran is weak but he is funny too ! And "guys in the chat" are also funny  | ||
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prosatan
Romania7926 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 30 2021 13:39 Dante08 wrote: Btw I don't think many people here have an idea of the "new" crazy Zerg style OP is talking about. - You go 2 hatch or 2.5 hatch mute and get +1 attack, keep Terran in base and abuse them with muta micro (you need good muta micro to pull this off). - Get quick carapace upgrade, tech to ultras asap - Take random locations all over the map where travel distance is far. - The "craziest" thing about this variation is no zerglings, just pure upgraded ultras The reason this is so strong is the mutas can keep Terran in base forever, and the upgraded ultras can tank forever vs marines. You don't even need zerglings with this build, all your larva goes to ultras. Watch this game between Action and Rush to see what I'm talking about (from the 1:19 mark). Action also countered with the ultras whenever Rush moved which is essentially buying time for another expo, once you get your 4th gas the game is pretty much over. The next game on eclipse showcases an even stronger version of this build since Action took the double gas. Going tank is risky, if Zerg picks off 1-2 tanks with mutas its gg. Valk builds can work but Zerg just needs to sunken up and buy time for ultras. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nUXPPZMWFU&t=5708s Yeah, I'm not impressed with the T's ability to deal with 2 hatch muta that doesn't even attempt to hold you into your base by attacking it and rather plays as a 3hatch opener. Without zerglings. This game is entirely on the T, I'm afraid. He simply did nothing. No pressure, no drops, no split attacks, even though the zerg didn't kill an apprciable amount of marines... Zerg also somehow had earlier upgrades than the Terran. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On July 30 2021 19:48 Nikon wrote: Yeah, I'm not impressed with the T's ability to deal with 2 hatch muta that doesn't even attempt to hold you into your base by attacking it and rather plays as a 3hatch opener. Without zerglings. This game is entirely on the T, I'm afraid. He simply did nothing. No pressure, no drops, no split attacks, even though the zerg didn't kill an apprciable amount of marines... What are you talking about, it's 2 rax academy vs 2 hatch, he pressured early to force sunkens. He then teched to starport on 2 rax, you can't move out anymore if Zerg goes 2 hatch heavy muta. And you suggest drops vs 2 hatch muta? It's gg if the mutas catch a dropship. Did you even watch the game? This is Rush who is one of the top 5 Terrans and you're saying stuff like no pressure, drops or spilt attacks lmao. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 30 2021 20:18 Dante08 wrote: What are you talking about, it's 2 rax academy vs 2 hatch, he pressured early to force sunkens. He then teched to starport on 2 rax, you can't move out anymore if Zerg goes 2 hatch heavy muta. And you suggest drops vs 2 hatch muta? It's gg if the mutas catch a dropship. Did you even watch the game? This is Rush who is one of the top 5 Terrans and you're saying stuff like no pressure, drops or spilt attacks lmao. Yeah, I watched the game. Terran never moved out, didn't engage mutas that well even over open ground, found third too late... And that third was put down before spire finished with 4 zerglings on the map. Zerg took a risk with it and it paid off, it's that simple. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
11 Muta > 12mm always. First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm, but zerg is always going to have the advantage with picking up a single marine and force terran to waste medic's energy. the longer the battle goes, terran falls behind because of medic's energy and marine ball becomes weak. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote: First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 30 2021 23:29 ggsimida wrote: as a pro should you make an assumption like this though? considering the build variant where zerg just make only ~5 mutas (one shot healthy marine) and rushes tech. i think terrans making assumptions these little details can be the difference between 2 similarly skilled players and like this is what makes zerg mind/metagaming effective. maybe you can enlighten further on this. You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 30 2021 21:45 LaStScan wrote: When you play at high level, Terran cannot move out with 12mm(12 marines + # medics). 11 Muta > 12mm always. First battle is always 8 muta vs 12mm, but zerg is always going to have the advantage with picking up a single marine and force terran to waste medic's energy. the longer the battle goes, terran falls behind because of medic's energy and marine ball becomes weak. What's your opinion of the particular game people linked me then? Terran didn't fidnt the third, but he was absolutely in a position to kill it in time, but didn't find it and it ended up costing him the game. Am I wrong? On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote: You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. What about the scenario in which the T player kills off mutas and forces them back to defend? Surely, top terran players are at least as good at microing their marines vs mutas as Z players are microing the mutas? | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 30 2021 23:42 Nikon wrote: What's your opinion of the particular game people linked me then? Terran didn't fidnt the third, but he was absolutely in a position to kill it in time, but didn't find it and it ended up costing him the game. Am I wrong? What about the scenario in which the T player kills off mutas and forces them back to defend? Surely, top terran players are at least as good at microing their marines vs mutas as Z players are microing the mutas? Nobody is forcing the mutas to engage into a bad fight if they don't make 8 mutas. They can simply avoid fighting and put up sunks, conceding map control. The point is that in 2H muta, Zerg can have enough to simply kill the moveout force, and T just cannot risk that. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote: You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. cool but i like to hear scan's opinion on it tho | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 30 2021 23:48 krooked wrote: Nobody is forcing the mutas to engage into a bad fight if they don't make 8 mutas. They can simply avoid fighting and put up sunks, conceding map control. The point is that in 2H muta, Zerg can have enough to simply kill the moveout force, and T just cannot risk that. So basically, you've given up on every TvZ you play from the get go, because you believe the Z is that much better than you that you can't do anything. This is exactly what you're saying. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 30 2021 23:55 ggsimida wrote: cool but i like to hear scan's opinion on it tho Then go ask him in a private chat. This is a public forum, and anyone can participate. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On July 31 2021 00:01 krooked wrote: Then go ask him in a private chat. This is a public forum, and anyone can participate. everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 00:00 Nikon wrote: So basically, you've given up on every TvZ you play from the get go, because you believe the Z is that much better than you that you can't do anything. This is exactly what you're saying. What an absurd way to interpret what I just wrote. It is an objective truth that T cannot blindly move out at certain points of the game vs Z or P. To acknowledge this isn't to give up anything. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
It's exactly what you said. People more than a decade ago found ways to do it, why can't people now? | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 00:40 Nikon wrote: "I can't move out cause my opponent might kill me." It's exactly what you said. People more than a decade ago found ways to do it, why can't people now? I really don't understand what you are trying to say here - are you saying that to not just move out freely at any point of the game is defeatist? If you're doing 2rax acad, 5rax +1, or whatever conceivable build off of 1rax FE, then you're just not able to freely move out at that timing vs 2H. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 00:52 Nikon wrote: Pros in the past have done it vs 2 hatch, 3 hatch, 1 hatch you name it. There's just a bunch of people trying to convince me that nobody can do something because they can't do it, amongst other things. What exactly do you mean? All of these Z builds has different muta timing. You are safe to move out for longer vs 3H because of the later mutas. Vs 2H muta, you cannot move out because the units you have loses to the initial mutas. If oyu go +1 5rax you have less units than 2rax acad. If you go one base acad build you can move out, but you're so behind that you are essentially all in. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 00:56 krooked wrote: What exactly do you mean? All of these Z builds has different muta timing. You are safe to move out for longer vs 3H because of the later mutas. Vs 2H muta, you cannot move out because the units you have loses to the initial mutas. If oyu go +1 5rax you have less units than 2rax acad. If you go one base acad build you can move out, but you're so behind that you are essentially all in. No, no they don't. What I'm saying is that people in the past have been perfectly able to fight muta with M&Ms, regardless of the opening build of the zerg. In fact, 2hatch muta has so little map control in the early stages that a zerg putting down a third expansion before the spire is finished and getting to keep it is squarely a massive error by the T player. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3843 Posts
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Sedo
10 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 01:39 Sedo wrote: As someone who IS interested in learning, and not trying to knuckle someone under because they "don't understand", can someone provide me some examples of the modern 2h muta -> ultras being broken consistently by terran? Sorry if I don't understand someone positing theoreticals about spires being taken down by an emaciated army on large cross-spawn maps. Have you considered that maybe terrans losing is due to not being as good players as the zergs beating them? | ||
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Sedo
10 Posts
Have you considered that maybe terrans losing is due to not being as good players as the zergs beating them? You're a genius! | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
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Sedo
10 Posts
On July 31 2021 02:32 Nikon wrote: You know what, obviously you're not interested in an arguement and I'm not going to look through hundreds of games to find the ones where 2h muta gets held by terran and then dies immediately so I guess you win this one. So basically, you've given up on teaching me from the get go, because you believe your argument is that much better than others that you don't have to support it with evidence for people to understand it. This is exactly what you're saying. Kind of a shame, I even made an account so you could help me understand. At least you're not asking me to do your homework for you. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 02:34 Sedo wrote: So basically, you've given up on teaching me from the get go, because you believe your argument is that much better than others that you don't have to support it with evidence for people to understand it. This is exactly what you're saying. Kind of a shame, I even made an account so you could help me understand. At least you're not asking me to do your homework for you. No, I've given up on you cause you opened up with misrepresenting what I said then asking for examples. You don't want an arguement, you want to feel more right than someone on the internet. I'm going to let you have that one. You're right. | ||
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Sedo
10 Posts
On July 31 2021 02:43 Nikon wrote:you opened up with misrepresenting what I said then asking for examples Again, please elucidate. I don't care about being right, I just want to know more. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 02:44 Sedo wrote: Again, please elucidate. I don't care about being right, I just want to know more. I'm sorry, English isn't my first language so I don't know words such as elucidate, positing, emaciated and laundry. | ||
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Sedo
10 Posts
On July 31 2021 02:47 Nikon wrote: I'm sorry, English isn't my first language so I don't know words such as elucidate, positing, emaciated and laundry. Or "examples". edit: if there's anyone else in the thread that would like to help me understand, that would be nice. I'm not sure why this fellow with over 5000 posts isn't very helpful. If it can be consistently beaten, there should be a lot of footage to draw from as resources for debunking whiny terrans. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 01:20 Magic Powers wrote: There was a very similar discussion in a different thread that krooked was having with a few people including myself. I can tell you that he's not interested in learning, he believes he's right about terran being the most difficult race while zerg can just sit back and relax, and that's just that. No ifs, ands or buts, he's always right no matter what. How is that even slightly relevant to what is being discussed in this thread? | ||
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EndingLife
United States1593 Posts
On July 30 2021 23:40 krooked wrote: You can't know, i.e., if you assume one way or another, you lose. Example 1: Terran moves out, Z has made 8 mutas, Terran loses his army, basically game lost right there Example 2: Terran moves out, Z hasn't made 8 mutas, Terran keeps his army and game goes on. Here is the key thing: Terran can't know which scenario is going to occur. Thus, it is entirely coinflip to move out. As such, the only right move is to NOT move out, or else you are gambling. Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than moving out in the first place. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote: Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1593 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:11 krooked wrote: Sure, if you want to gamble then you can gamble. No disagreements there. The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... | ||
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Sedo
10 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:10 EndingLife wrote: Unless you're playing a a pro level or facing one of the top foreign zergs, this is complete nonsense. This is pro level meta, not foreign level. Very little of what you say actually applies to the level you or most foreigners play at. Many foreigners take pride in gambling and taking chances. Most probably do so because that style yields the best results. While moving out and 'gambling' might not work all the time, refusing to move out and turtling might be more of a gamble than not moving out at all. If your opponent is better than you, not moving out is definitely more of a gamble than moving out to harass, force sunkens, force units instead of drones, harass expansions, etc. Forgive me but I'm failing to see the options that are not gambles here. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1593 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:21 Sedo wrote: Forgive me but I'm failing to see the options that are not gambles here. The point was, unless you're facing pro level muta harass, you SHOULD be gambling based on determining factors. If your opponent has displayed subpar micro abilities, slow or delayed timings, or loses units for free, you should be gambling. It becomes much less of a gamble and much more of a power play when taking into account the above factors that can come into play. Adjusting based on what you scout IS KEY. | ||
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Sedo
10 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:32 EndingLife wrote: The point was, unless you're facing pro level muta harass, you SHOULD be gambling based on determining factors. If your opponent has displayed subpar micro abilities, slow or delayed timings, or loses units for free, you should be gambling. It becomes much less of a gamble and much more of a power play when taking into account the above factors that can come into play. Adjusting based on what you scout IS KEY. Ah, I see. Thank you. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:20 EndingLife wrote: The opponents skill level, the timings of his build order and his general level of micro should help determine whether to move out or not. This should be a case by case basis determined by many factors. Trying to convince people that you should never move out is complete nonsense... Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. | ||
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Puosu
6984 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote: Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. thats not something that tlers can discuss tho | ||
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EndingLife
United States1593 Posts
Not many under 2500 mmr or those who aren't Scan lol | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6542 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:36 krooked wrote: Remember that the context for this discussion is Scans statement that Terran can't move out at pro level. This is fascinating. Apparently zerg discovered a 2 hatch muta build. Is kind of funny this evolution happened when FlaSh and Effort went away. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
Well, anyone can discuss anything. There are sport experts that have never played at the highest levels, for instance. There's no reason to think that only people above x MMR should be allowed to voice their opinion on the subject. In this instance, Scan states that T cant safely move out, and another user says that pro T's are making assumption. The point I'm trying to get across is that in 2H vs T 1rax FE follow ups, it would be a gamble to move out simply because Zerg could have enough to kill the moveout, and thus put T at a massive disadvantage. Thus T has to "assume". | ||
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Puosu
6984 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:56 krooked wrote: Well, anyone can discuss anything. There are sport experts that have never played at the highest levels, for instance. There's no reason to think that only people above x MMR should be allowed to voice their opinion on the subject. In this instance, Scan states that T cant safely move out, and another user says that pro T's are making assumption. The point I'm trying to get across is that in 2H vs T 1rax FE follow ups, it would be a gamble to move out simply because Zerg could have enough to kill the moveout, and thus put T at a massive disadvantage. Thus T has to "assume". are you that sports expert | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
No, and I don't need to be. Anyone can express their opinion about the topic. In fact, by your own standards, you shouldn't be posting in this thread. | ||
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Sedo
10 Posts
Artosis is not a pro player, but is considered an "expert" enough to commentate professionally. He claims that CrazyZerg is a low risk build that can effectively delete Terran from the game, saying that even professional Terrans aren't able to counter it consistently. Considering the OP mentioned Artosis, I think it's more relevant to talk about why this might not be true, if there's any discussion to be had. Note: I don't think Artosis is correct. Thus my comment about whiny terrans earlier. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6542 Posts
On July 31 2021 04:16 Sedo wrote: Artosis is not a pro player, but is considered an "expert" enough to commentate professionally. He claims that CrazyZerg is a low risk build that can effectively delete Terran from the game, saying that even professional Terrans aren't able to counter it consistently. Considering the OP mentioned Artosis, I think it's more relevant to talk about why this might not be true, if there's any discussion to be had. Note: I don't think Artosis is correct. Thus my comment about whiny terrans earlier. Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro. | ||
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Sedo
10 Posts
On July 31 2021 04:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro. My bad. Scan definitely puts in the work and shouldn't be considered a whiny terran by any stretch. Scan's argument isn't the same as Arty's argument though, where Arty is claiming that the game has become next to impossible for Terran in a TvZ. For context he's sitting around 2100-2200 MMR on Korean gateway, losing to zergs anywhere between 1800 and 2250 that go for this strat. He's been seeing it become very popular starting around last week. I think I remember Scan warning him about this when he was trying to teach Arty what to expect with upcoming 2.5h builds. From what I've been watching I think the window for pushing back is very small, but the build order telegraphs it pretty hard. I disagree with Artosis that it's impossible to counter, he just needs to gitgud even if it's causing him massive distress atm. | ||
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Phyanketto
United States505 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 04:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Is Scan wrong tho ? He even qualified for ASL.But in Scan defense he is facing zerg players with really strong micro. I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 31 2021 04:38 Nikon wrote: I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups. I don't think the quality of the games are in such a slum as you make it out to be. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 06:02 404AlphaSquad wrote: Maybe not, but he makes it sound as if all the top players are currently blind stumbling buffoons. No, but the skill level difference is pretty huge and then I get people arguing that "but the pros can't stop it", and it can be pretty jarring. | ||
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Sedo
10 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 31 2021 06:07 Nikon wrote: No, but the skill level difference is pretty huge and then I get people arguing that "but the pros can't stop it", and it can be pretty jarring. Well, what other argument do you want to hear, other than people pointing at the currently best players and saying they cannot stop it. At least that is something observable. It is more jarring to say, the terran gods of old could have, since it is impossible to disprove. It cleverly shifts the burden of proof. "You cannot prove that the old terrans at their peak wouldn't win", therefor crazy zerg is fine. Just to be clear, I am not on either side of this argument. I do think crazy zerg is strong, but not to the degree that it is so broken, that tvz is pointless to play out in my humble opinion. The game has been in worse states where people thought it was broken and the game naturally evolved out of it. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 07:39 404AlphaSquad wrote: Well, what other argument do you want to hear, other than people pointing at the currently best players and saying they cannot stop it. At least that is something observable. It is more jarring to say, the terran gods of old could have, since it is impossible to disprove. It cleverly shifts the burden of proof. "You cannot prove that the old terrans at their peak wouldn't win", therefor crazy zerg is fine. Just to be clear, I am not on either side of this argument. I do think crazy zerg is strong, but not to the degree that it is so broken, that tvz is pointless to play out in my humble opinion. The game has been in worse states where people thought it was broken and the game naturally evolved out of it. I mean, what arguement am I supposed to make here? I'm straight up being told that there is no counterplay to it because pros currently lose to it. The example game I was shown, zerg snuck in a double-gas third before the spire was even done. Terran didn't catch it and zerg leveraged that to victory. I suggested that maybe terrans need to be more aggressive during the midgame, and what's the counter-arguement? You can't be. That straight up smells like the terrans are getting outclassed and feeds right into the "older terrans would have won". In fact, that might be the whole crux of the problem as to why it is so prevalent right now. It's rather simple to execute, as long as you have okayish muta micro. That's all there is to it: zergs can hit the execution more consistently as there are very few moving parts in the build to mess up, and as a result collect more wins overall. But at this point it's on the terran players to figure out something to change it up and start winning more, rather than sit and complain incessantly about how hard it is. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3843 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 08:22 Magic Powers wrote: It's such a coincidence that an "OP ZvT strat" appears on the radar right after Flash leaves for military service. It's as if terran players currently don't have someone spoon-feeding them all the right answers. Maybe  Flash released it to zerg players and he already has the  Answer. Then, when he returns and beats it with some INnoVation that looks like it took ZerO EffOrt, he's going to be the best once again. He's just letting zerg players live the FanTaSy for now, leaving the harsh Reality hit for later. | ||
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
On July 31 2021 08:22 Magic Powers wrote: It's such a coincidence that an "OP ZvT strat" appears on the radar right after Flash leaves for military service. It's as if terran players currently don't have someone spoon-feeding them all the right answers. kek | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On July 30 2021 11:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: I wonder why he is so hated by the BW community on TL, given that he is the biggest foreign BW streamer. Maybe it is because he also casts sc2 and people here are ready to oust/shame people for it. I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote. | ||
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
On July 30 2021 13:39 Dante08 wrote: Btw I don't think many people here have an idea of the "new" crazy Zerg style OP is talking about. - You go 2 hatch or 2.5 hatch mute and get +1 attack, keep Terran in base and abuse them with muta micro (you need good muta micro to pull this off). - Get quick carapace upgrade, tech to ultras asap - Take random locations all over the map where travel distance is far. - The "craziest" thing about this variation is no zerglings, just pure upgraded ultras The reason this is so strong is the mutas can keep Terran in base forever, and the upgraded ultras can tank forever vs marines. You don't even need zerglings with this build, all your larva goes to ultras. Watch this game between Action and Rush to see what I'm talking about (from the 1:19 mark). Action also countered with the ultras whenever Rush moved which is essentially buying time for another expo, once you get your 4th gas the game is pretty much over. The next game on eclipse showcases an even stronger version of this build since Action took the double gas. Going tank is risky, if Zerg picks off 1-2 tanks with mutas its gg. Valk builds can work but Zerg just needs to sunken up and buy time for ultras. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nUXPPZMWFU&t=5708s I've been doing that style for a while myself, and I don't think it's that new. What you described is basically the only way 2 hatch crazy zerg can be played; the lack of lings is a forced consequence, not an active choice. With 2 hatch muta you can't afford lings in the midgame, otherwise you're going to have no larvae for drones. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 31 2021 09:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote. Calling somebody "incapable of learning anything" sure does not sound like hating. lol. And the next poster basically confirmed my suspicion. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 10:19 404AlphaSquad wrote: Calling somebody "incapable of learning anything" sure does not sound like hating. lol. And the next poster basically confirmed my suspicion. Protip your suspicion has nothing to do with reality. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
Currently everyone prefers to play on tr24 in sc:remastered. Tr14 low(3000/14 =~214ms) is almost equivalent to sc1.16 udp/chaoslauncher #l2 speed. Muta micro on tr24 low(125ms) vs tr14 low(214ms) is a completely different world. Zerg can always choose to fight vs mm or not(forcing stimpack and lose medics' energy) and back then every zerg did mineral fields x 1.2~1.3 drones. Current meta is they make almost x2~2.5 drones even if they are stuck at 2 base inside 3rd hatch(2.5h muta). They make double line of sunkens and immediately go for killing turrets(initial 8 muta can 3 shot turret). This makes terran in a dilemma zone because very first 12~18mm move out can be stopped by 6~8sunkens and main base is completely vulnerable for terran. KeSPA era crazy zerg is just always 3h muta crazy zerg build + making 3 groups of lings(900 minerals) to eat mm balls and this just makes terran very comfortable. Terran can tech up while moving out, 0 harassment done by zerg. Also zerg players back then had to use larvae all the time. Never saving up larvae. Current 2h or 2.5h(inside 3rd) muta makes 6-8 sunkens(750~1000mineral) to stop any of mm ball attack, and at the same time zerg goes for killing terran's workers, turrets, tech timing. Current zerg players choose to afk larvae as much as possible for sunken defense and prioritize on muta micro for more damage. Zerg doesnt always have to go crazy zerg, but with that fast carapace upgrade, they can still go for mixture build with lurker defiler and still able to pull out armor 4 ultra switches at 12~13 min mark. They use lurkers defensively and defending 2nd and 3rd base like siege tank with dark swarm. Check out the game #8 and #9 from action vs rush ultimate battle vod. Score doesn't matter because all the 5 games action lost was non crazy zerg/3h build, but every crazy zerg strat action did, he won all 4 games. If you also visit sponbbang website and check light's record, he lost to queen 0-4 already(2 of bo1s, 2 of bo3s) from his recent games. | ||
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Highgamer
1402 Posts
These posts do not only hold specific reliable information that I and probably most people here miss, they also always remind me how much detailed knowledge is necessary and how much has to be taken into the equation to get to a well weighed judgement about balance, about why certain stuff works or doesn't work or has a higher likelihood to do either or. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I think Nikon has a point though when he says you are just all too “badly equipped” to deal with “okayish muta micro” /s | ||
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Highgamer
1402 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
03:11:55 (some spon/proleague against ??) piano did 5rax against this build. went for a big MM push on the nat at exactly 9 min and stomp. though zerg make a mistake in not checking the first roaming MM group and just harass his base | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On July 31 2021 15:01 LaStScan wrote: Everyone played on 210ms latency in sc1.16 version. Currently everyone prefers to play on tr24 in sc:remastered. Tr14 low(3000/14 =~214ms) is almost equivalent to sc1.16 udp/chaoslauncher #l2 speed. Muta micro on tr24 low(125ms) vs tr14 low(214ms) is a completely different world. How would you compare that to muta micro on 0ms ping on LAN? On July 31 2021 15:01 LaStScan wrote: Zerg can always choose to fight vs mm or not(forcing stimpack and lose medics' energy) and back then every zerg did mineral fields x 1.2~1.3 drones. Current meta is they make almost x2~2.5 drones even if they are stuck at 2 base inside 3rd hatch(2.5h muta). They make double line of sunkens and immediately go for killing turrets(initial 8 muta can 3 shot turret). This makes terran in a dilemma zone because very first 12~18mm move out can be stopped by 6~8sunkens and main base is completely vulnerable for terran. KeSPA era crazy zerg is just always 3h muta crazy zerg build + making 3 groups of lings(900 minerals) to eat mm balls and this just makes terran very comfortable. Terran can tech up while moving out, 0 harassment done by zerg. Also zerg players back then had to use larvae all the time. Never saving up larvae. Current 2h or 2.5h(inside 3rd) muta makes 6-8 sunkens(750~1000mineral) to stop any of mm ball attack, and at the same time zerg goes for killing terran's workers, turrets, tech timing. Current zerg players choose to afk larvae as much as possible for sunken defense and prioritize on muta micro for more damage. Zerg doesnt always have to go crazy zerg, but with that fast carapace upgrade, they can still go for mixture build with lurker defiler and still able to pull out armor 4 ultra switches at 12~13 min mark. They use lurkers defensively and defending 2nd and 3rd base like siege tank with dark swarm. Check out the game #8 and #9 from action vs rush ultimate battle vod. Score doesn't matter because all the 5 games action lost was non crazy zerg/3h build, but every crazy zerg strat action did, he won all 4 games. If you also visit sponbbang website and check light's record, he lost to queen 0-4 already(2 of bo1s, 2 of bo3s) from his recent games. So, it plays out like a classic 2hatch build, being super aggressive with mutas since you have no other choice. Personally, I don't agree that 3hatch builds do 0 harassment. They can certainly play that way, but that's abit besides the discussion. What you're telling me that within the timing window between first 7th and 8th mutas popping out and speed/chitinious plating ultras coming into play there is absolutely nothing terran can do? I'll admit I haven't looked at the maps played in tournaments in-depth, but Eclipse in particular is very playable with mech, for example, sidestepping the problem entirely. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 16:37 ggsimida wrote: https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/75760187 03:11:55 (some spon/proleague against ??) piano did 5rax against this build. went for a big MM push on the nat at exactly 9 min and stomp. though zerg make a mistake in not checking the first roaming MM group and just harass his base Zerg simply didn't make enough sunks. The entire point is to just invest into enough sunks so busts doesn't work. Obviously if Zerg doesn't make enough sunks, Terran just busts through and wins. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 18:40 Nikon wrote: How would you compare that to muta micro on 0ms ping on LAN? So, it plays out like a classic 2hatch build, being super aggressive with mutas since you have no other choice. Personally, I don't agree that 3hatch builds do 0 harassment. They can certainly play that way, but that's abit besides the discussion. What you're telling me that within the timing window between first 7th and 8th mutas popping out and speed/chitinious plating ultras coming into play there is absolutely nothing terran can do? I'll admit I haven't looked at the maps played in tournaments in-depth, but Eclipse in particular is very playable with mech, for example. 1. Mech isn't what is being discussed here. Mech has its own issues. 2. Terran can try to bust, but if Zerg builds enough sunks, that won't work. Terran can try to drop, but its extremely risky considering 1) mutas are out in large numbers and 2) scourge on patrol 3. The "solution" has been to make a ton of rax and camp outside nat and threaten a bust to force maximum amount of sunkens, while getting quick upgrades, while irradiating ultras while Z waits for upgs, forcing ultras to engage into the massive upgraded m&m force. The issue with this approach, however, is that as long as there exists enough sunkens, the remaining terran army cannot bust the nat, nor stop Zergs economic growth. The next round of +4 ultras simply destroys the MM ball, and mass ling / ultra is a-moved towards Terrans base. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On July 31 2021 18:41 krooked wrote: Zerg simply didn't make enough sunks. The entire point is to just invest into enough sunks so busts doesn't work. Obviously if Zerg doesn't make enough sunks, Terran just busts through and wins. and thats the point, the zerg didnt think the 5rax was threatening enough and try to be tech greedy and neglect sunks. if he try to put sunks earlier he would significantly delay his tech. if terran can make assumptions, so can zerg especially when they are both going through the revolving door of meta as they try to adapt to each others unique responses. i dont expect a clean thought out reply from you though considering your extremely terran biased viewpoint and obvious terran victim narrative why don't you try 5 rax out and push at 9 min? or your 1300 mmr can't handle the mechanics needed? | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On July 31 2021 19:02 ggsimida wrote: and thats the point, the zerg didnt think the 5rax was threatening enough and try to be tech greedy and neglect sunks. if he try to put sunks earlier he would significantly delay his tech. if terran can make assumptions, so can zerg especially when they are both going through the revolving door of meta as they try to adapt to each others unique responses. i dont expect a clean thought out reply from you though considering your extremely terran biased viewpoint and obvious terran victim narrative why don't you try 5 rax out and push at 9 min? or your 1300 mmr can't handle the mechanics needed? 1. What exactly is your point? Terrans at the highest level obviously force sunks, and Zergs at the highest level make enough sunks. Just because you found a game where the Zerg just falls over because he didn't make enough sunks doesn't say anything about issues with crazy zerg. 2. There is no victim narrative here. I honestly have no idea what you are even talking about. Terrans struggle with crazy zerg, which is the point of discussion here. If it were as easy as simply doing +1 5rax, then it wouldn't be discussed nor be an issue for Terrans at the highest levels. 3. I don't think 1300 MMR Zergs are executing the crazy z strategy very carefully - they would probably be extremely to bust or just dropship. Luckily, whatever 1300 MMR Zergs are doing are completely besides the point of discussion. But I understand that attempting to berate me is your best bet as a discussion tactic. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
How would you compare that to muta micro on 0ms ping on LAN? LAN is TR24 Low... There is no 0 ms ping on LAN... So, it plays out like a classic 2hatch build, being super aggressive with mutas since you have no other choice. It doesn't play out like a classic 2 hatch build, and it doesn't have to be super aggressive. Zerg has the choice. Not Terran. VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=276 VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=4931 VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=6113 VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=7217 4:0 Personally, I don't agree that 3hatch builds do 0 harassment. They can certainly play that way, but that's abit besides the discussion. Ok, you can disagree, but the truth is it is nearly done 0 harassment vs terran with 3h build UNLESS it was a base trade(elimination battle) VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=1579 3h muta base trade VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=2216 3h 3 base build VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=3051 3h lurker VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=4537 3h 3 base build VOD: https://youtu.be/5nUXPPZMWFU?t=3832 messed up defending + mind game vs 8 rax 0:5 What you're telling me that within the timing window between first 7th and 8th mutas popping out and speed/chitinious plating ultras coming into play there is absolutely nothing terran can do? ?? Terran players are working on it to find a solution and so far nothing can be done in early game because it is pretty much played like a textbook guideline. I'll admit I haven't looked at the maps played in tournaments in-depth, but Eclipse in particular is very playable with mech, for example, sidestepping the problem entirely. mech is bad... maps don't matter for crazy zerg build unless it's like completely a concept map like island map... | ||
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HerbMon
United States460 Posts
On July 27 2021 19:11 iFU.spx wrote: it's easy. https://clips.twitch.tv/BoxyCrypticKoupreyKappaPride-NsnE-qQKF31H7Eyc IM SO WEAK. This is hilarious. Thank you for the post! | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1548 Posts
On July 27 2021 19:11 iFU.spx wrote: it's easy. https://clips.twitch.tv/BoxyCrypticKoupreyKappaPride-NsnE-qQKF31H7Eyc this is a guy in the chat for sure lol | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On July 31 2021 04:38 Nikon wrote: I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups. This is such a dumb post. Yes there isn't a pro system now but the understanding of the game is much better than before. Players are optimizing their builds more and you see stuff that you didn't see in the Kespa era (like reavers TvP, 2 hatch muta into various transitions). Their mechanics might not be as good as before but it's still good and more than enough to compete at a high level. You mention how Terran players aren't equipped enough to deal with muta micro but have you thought about how Zergs have massively improved muta micro as well? Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On August 01 2021 00:03 LaStScan wrote: ?? Terran players are working on it to find a solution i dont' see it besides the piano vod i linked earlier was at least 1 attempt to do it. or are u all waiting for flash to come back in more than a years time to spoonfeed lol User was warned for this post | ||
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RuhZo
9 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On August 01 2021 14:27 ggsimida wrote: i dont' see it besides the piano vod i linked earlier was at least 1 attempt to do it. or are u all waiting for flash to come back in more than a years time to spoonfeed lol I watched it. Piano brought about 3 groups of MM, miso didn't put enough sunkens(he had 4 sunks + 3 creeps) on time like Action. the game would've been different if 7 sunkens were already done. +1 5 rax is not the perfect response to crazy zerg. no one in korea said we wait for flash's solution. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On August 01 2021 16:17 Bakuryu wrote: this unwarranted disrespect against a leading player from our own community makes me sad. It is pretty much what I have come to expect in the BW forum of TL. Why be this hostile? It is not like Scan gains anything by joining this discussion. He posted a detailed explaination and instead of discussing politely, he gets insulted, despite being better than everyone else who posts here. What a joke. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote: Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. ^ in asia, it works, probably not in westen  | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On August 01 2021 16:17 Bakuryu wrote: this unwarranted disrespect against a leading player from our own community makes me sad. On August 01 2021 16:26 404AlphaSquad wrote: It is pretty much what I have come to expect in the BW forum of TL. Why be this hostile? It is not like Scan gains anything by joining this discussion. He posted a detailed explaination and instead of discussing politely, he gets insulted, despite being better than everyone else who posts here. What a joke. <3 | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
Also thanks Scan for taking the time to be in our forums and to commentate games  | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3843 Posts
On August 01 2021 17:06 Timebon3s wrote: Wouldn’t spider mines be good against this build? Like 1 or 2 factory with mines ? I am noob, just wondering. Also thanks Scan for taking the time to be in our forums and to commentate games Vultures require the same resource as marines do. The vessel is a more complementary unit, and you get 3 vessels or 6 marines for the cost of 4 vultures (ignoring upgrades/tech). Marines will eventually fare very poorly against ultras, that's why terran is under time pressure. SKTerran is the right unit composition for the purpose of expansion hunting. Vultures don't fit that purpose. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On August 01 2021 16:37 LaStScan wrote: ^ in asia, it works, probably not in westen I think it's more of a TL thing lol. | ||
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Grounded God
5 Posts
The Ultras force the Terran Player in a dilemma since Ultras take the map control and the ability to stop Zergs from reaching late-game. But Terrans can´t switch into defensive, because they are unable to defend their bases when Defilers come into play. So Terrans are forced to take the fight with the Ultras on the open map, which is disadvantageous for the Marines or they just die in their base as soon as a Defiler arrives there. So the real problem is the Defiler, which is absolutely necessary for Zergs to be able to defend their bases, but on the other hand completely kills the Terrans ability to defend and expand into a stable late game with the current MM style. Finding an answer to a problem that kills 90% of your options as soon as it arrives, since Terran is stacked with ranged units is extremely difficult. So stopping your Enemy before reaching that point was a good way to avoid that problem. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote: Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. ok what's asl | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On August 01 2021 00:03 LaStScan wrote: ?? Terran players are working on it to find a solution and so far nothing can be done in early game because it is pretty much played like a textbook guideline. So, I watched the vods you provided and I think I'm getting a much clearer picture of what's going on. Zerg is skipping midgame entirely and is hitting the hive powerspike much earlier than terrans are used to and as such they don't have builds to put them into a playable position. Am I reading this right? On August 01 2021 00:03 LaStScan wrote: mech is bad... maps don't matter for crazy zerg build unless it's like completely a concept map like island map... Why is it bad? What made people give it up altogether? | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
It is Asian Swiming League. You have missed last 10 years of Korean sports I see. Back in topic, how the pros see +1 4 rax or +1 3rax? I have seen Royal playing 3 rax and it did not look that bad. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3843 Posts
On August 01 2021 19:26 Grounded God wrote: Terrans are not under time pressure because of the Ultras, They just enhance a problem that occurs for quite a while. Twelve Marines kill one Ultra in 5 seconds with stim (0.42*140)/12= 4.9. So under the right circumstances Marines can handle Ultras quite well. The problem Terrans have is that they are unable to transition into a stable late game versus Zergs since Mech-Switch is gone and there is nothing that can handle late game defilers, when they reach the Terran bases. So Terrans switched to breaking Zergs before they can reach late game to avoid this Situation, but Zerg seems to figured out a way to safely reach the late game and basically auto-win right now. The Ultras force the Terran Player in a dilemma since Ultras take the map control and the ability to stop Zergs from reaching late-game. But Terrans can´t switch into defensive, because they are unable to defend their bases when Defilers come into play. So Terrans are forced to take the fight with the Ultras on the open map, which is disadvantageous for the Marines or they just die in their base as soon as a Defiler arrives there. So the real problem is the Defiler, which is absolutely necessary for Zergs to be able to defend their bases, but on the other hand completely kills the Terrans ability to defend and expand into a stable late game with the current MM style. Finding an answer to a problem that kills 90% of your options as soon as it arrives, since Terran is stacked with ranged units is extremely difficult. So stopping your Enemy before reaching that point was a good way to avoid that problem. Everything you said after that first line proves that terran is under time pressure... | ||
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
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ChibiZerg
Australia27 Posts
Sorry there are so many people who know nothing, yet argue just for the sake of arguing. | ||
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Grounded God
5 Posts
So currently Terrans are stuck as they are unable to kill the Zergs in that limited time window and they have no real way to transition into a late game versus Zerg to fight it out in the long run. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3843 Posts
On August 02 2021 04:04 Grounded God wrote: I never said Terrans aren´t under time pressure, it´s the only Matchup which even has a limited time window right now. Terrans are under time pressure because of the Defilers and not because of the Ultras as you stated. That´s what I wanted to point out, as Ultras are just means for the purpose. Defending a base just becomes pointless as soon as an invincible enemy knocks on your door. Mech-Switch was a way to transition into a style that could handle late game Zerg, but it seems to not be viable anymore. So currently Terrans are stuck as they are unable to kill the Zergs in that limited time window and they have no real way to transition into a late game versus Zerg to fight it out in the long run. Why does it have to be an either-or between ultras and defilers? Both together form an extra strong combo, but each option by itself creates time pressure. Zerg has both options: can either add defilers more quickly or prioritize mass production of ultras. Zerg needs more expansions precisely for this reason: because more ultras are always needed, not just defilers. So it's not that terran is only under time pressure because of the looming defiler tech (adding to the existing ultras). It's the threat of more ultras. It's also the threat of defilers. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 01 2021 16:17 Bakuryu wrote: this unwarranted disrespect against a leading player from our own community makes me sad. I tend to agree which is why he got moderated for it. Posters are free to disagree with others, but avoid being an ass when responding to someone who is providing information and doing a great service to the community. On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote: This is such a dumb post. Yes there isn't a pro system now but the understanding of the game is much better than before. Players are optimizing their builds more and you see stuff that you didn't see in the Kespa era (like reavers TvP, 2 hatch muta into various transitions). Their mechanics might not be as good as before but it's still good and more than enough to compete at a high level. You mention how Terran players aren't equipped enough to deal with muta micro but have you thought about how Zergs have massively improved muta micro as well? Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. I'm glad someone commented on that post because you could just tell how clueless he is about the current scene and his larva point is just plain bad. I don't know if this is a serious post considering you've been arguing about the skill of the current players without even knowing about asl, but if it is, I'll provide the information you requested: ASL = afreeca starleague It's the highest form of BW competition you can find in Korea nowadays, stacked with tons of former pros so it's extremely competitive. There are offline qualifiers (well, online I believe due to covid recently) which are quite difficult to get through. It's been running for 11 seasons now since 2016 so 5 years of ASL now. ASL will hopefully continue running for many more years to come. Prior to ASL, we had another starleague called SSL for SonicTV Starleague and that was the breeding grounds for ASL because it helped a lot of players who came back to compete against other expros. By the time it ended, SSL was on OGN for 2 seasons and was filled with a lot of expros too. Korea never lost their love for BW. If you want more information on SSL, you can read about it here: Sonic's Legacy: SSL's Lasting Impact In regards to your post above: It's true that the scene is smaller now and that's natural because the scene was slowly building itself since the professional scene ended, and only those players who had a strong enough base or didn't transition to another game stayed behind, but the meta game has greatly eclipsed the KeSPA days. Even mechanics-wise, some of the top players are still just fantastic overall. I can't remember who mentioned it in an interview that the current players are all on the same level of macro and it comes down to other ways to win games. If you want some recommendations to see this, I'm pretty sure lots of posters can provide links to their favourite ASL games. I can provide a 2017 Reflection writeup that has some links to show this point: 2017 Reflection - TeamLiquid BW Awards Also, the professional scene ended over 9 years ago and some players have improved immensely while others flattered or left the scene. Why are you even trying to compare Larva then to now? Is this some kind of a joke? You do realize that Larva was only on SKT T1 as a practice partner for 1-2 years at best and an old source told me that he was kicked off the team apparently? The Larva you see now, much like Last, Shuttle, Mini etc... improved greatly from their old days that it is extremely unfair to say (roughly translated) "look, he was ranked 120 back then yet he won a tournament now? low skill!!!!!". Have you seen a fpv game of Larva? Have you seen his muta micro? His ZvP skills? Have you even watched any of his games? Larva probably had some of the most miraculous growth among all BW pros, maybe aside from Soma (but Soma was never an expro). I wouldn't fault you for trying to do the comparison as bizzare as it is, because you may not be aware of all that went down in the last 9 years, but maybe this will help in regards to Larva: Larva No More - The Evolution All this to say that your post was very questionable because it is quite obvious that you are missing a lot of information. Much less the fact that Zerg pros are so damn good with mutas nowadays that it's insane. Personal anecdote: I remember watching a Larva fpv a long time back on eclipse where his mutas were just insanely good. He made a shot at a really weird angle which made it seem like muta range was extremely long. As a Terran player, it made me realize (I already knew, but just more confirmation) that mutas are such a tough unit to deal with that even top Terrans will fall if the Zerg has such strong micro. Add in BO optimization and you get an old strat becoming that much stronger. Honestly, players are still great overall, give credit where it's due ~ | ||
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GuyInTheChat
United States1 Post
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CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
also tossagi and bad player-sagi | ||
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RuhZo
9 Posts
On August 01 2021 00:03 LaStScan wrote: LAN is TR24 Low... There is no 0 ms ping on LAN... This is the first time I'm hearing of this. So are you saying that Remastered LAN is 125ms and 1.16 LAN was 214ms of input delay? Did you happen to see the games Soma and Sorry/Royal played a couple days ago on Somas stream? He did a lot of gas heavier builds but Soma didn't really go for this modern crazy zerg so I'm certainly not in a position to discuss their viability. They were interesting games, nonetheless. VOD: https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/75755011 (First 2 hours or so) | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden509 Posts
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Grounded God
5 Posts
On August 02 2021 05:05 Magic Powers wrote: Why does it have to be an either-or between ultras and defilers? Both together form an extra strong combo, but each option by itself creates time pressure. Zerg has both options: can either add defilers more quickly or prioritize mass production of ultras. Zerg needs more expansions precisely for this reason: because more ultras are always needed, not just defilers. So it's not that terran is only under time pressure because of the looming defiler tech (adding to the existing ultras). It's the threat of more ultras. It's also the threat of defilers. I also never said that its an either-or between Ultras and Defilers. I just wanted to point out that Defilers are the reason Terrans are on a timer. Terrans lack the ability to get into a defensive state and take some extra bases with MM as they are unable to handle the Defiler, when it´s used in a offensive way. It´s a similar situation in PvZ where the Protoss has a time window to chose between trying to break a turtle Zerg or to sit back and take their own bases to fight it out in the long run. The advantage of the Protoss is that he´s able to slowly transition into a late game combination that´s able to compete with the Zergs Defiler play. Zergs need additional bases to afford to break out of their defensive state, as Vessels tax the Zergs ressources. There are several ways to do that and doesn´t necessary need Ultras to be included. Yes Ultras are amazing units and they seem to be able to put the Terran into an instant defensive state, which he can´t afford to be in the current meta. But the main problem is still the Defiler, which makes a defensive playstyle pointless and thus forces the Terrans to be out on the map, which he´s unable to be since the Ultras force them into the defense. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On August 02 2021 18:32 A.Alm wrote: LAN is 1-2 ms. The ping from EU to NA is less than 125ms. I doubt the best achievable ping in scbw is 125ms. LAN is 125ms lowest possible. You choose the TR in lobby. and SC1.16 LAN(UDP) is also 210ms | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden509 Posts
On August 02 2021 23:29 LaStScan wrote: LAN is 125ms lowest possible. You choose the TR in lobby. and SC1.16 LAN(UDP) is also 210ms https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/turn-rates-matchmaking-and-you/519 The latency on tr24 low is 125ms, which means the ping is half of that. Either way, i though it was way less. Apparently they didnt update/lower this in remastered. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On August 01 2021 11:33 HerbMon wrote: IM SO WEAK. This is hilarious. Thank you for the post! hahahaha was Light being sarcastic there, like it's supposed to be easy? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3843 Posts
On August 02 2021 19:40 Grounded God wrote: I also never said that its an either-or between Ultras and Defilers. I just wanted to point out that Defilers are the reason Terrans are on a timer. You're arguing against something that there's no need to argue against. Even skipping defilers altogether, terran would still be under time pressure. That's because with its existing ultra army, zerg can expand very rapidly, forcing terran to move out and hunt down fresh expansions and/or keep the ultra army small and low on HP. There are a number of good examples where zerg wins exactly in this way without needing defilers. It's because marines lose effectiveness as more ultra upgrades kick in, and being on two base terran can't keep up with zerg's mass production from 4-5 bases. Zerg grows disproportionally, and that puts terran under time pressure. PS: It makes no sense to say "no, it's not the ultras that put terran under time pressure" and then also say "I never said it's an either-or". | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 03 2021 02:58 JieXian wrote: hahahaha was Light being sarcastic there, like it's supposed to be easy? I think he was being serious. 2/1 is the usual strat for crazy zerg afaik. Nothing in BW is easy lol. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On August 02 2021 06:39 BigFan wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 01 2021 16:17 Bakuryu wrote: this unwarranted disrespect against a leading player from our own community makes me sad. I tend to agree which is why he got moderated for it. Posters are free to disagree with others, but avoid being an ass when responding to someone who is providing information and doing a great service to the community. On August 01 2021 12:26 Dante08 wrote: This is such a dumb post. Yes there isn't a pro system now but the understanding of the game is much better than before. Players are optimizing their builds more and you see stuff that you didn't see in the Kespa era (like reavers TvP, 2 hatch muta into various transitions). Their mechanics might not be as good as before but it's still good and more than enough to compete at a high level. You mention how Terran players aren't equipped enough to deal with muta micro but have you thought about how Zergs have massively improved muta micro as well? Also you literally have an ASL player explaining the build to you and you are rebutting him lmao, just listen and accept it. I'm glad someone commented on that post because you could just tell how clueless he is about the current scene and his larva point is just plain bad. I don't know if this is a serious post considering you've been arguing about the skill of the current players without even knowing about asl, but if it is, I'll provide the information you requested: ASL = afreeca starleague It's the highest form of BW competition you can find in Korea nowadays, stacked with tons of former pros so it's extremely competitive. There are offline qualifiers (well, online I believe due to covid recently) which are quite difficult to get through. It's been running for 11 seasons now since 2016 so 5 years of ASL now. ASL will hopefully continue running for many more years to come. Prior to ASL, we had another starleague called SSL for SonicTV Starleague and that was the breeding grounds for ASL because it helped a lot of players who came back to compete against other expros. By the time it ended, SSL was on OGN for 2 seasons and was filled with a lot of expros too. Korea never lost their love for BW. If you want more information on SSL, you can read about it here: Sonic's Legacy: SSL's Lasting Impact In regards to your post above: It's true that the scene is smaller now and that's natural because the scene was slowly building itself since the professional scene ended, and only those players who had a strong enough base or didn't transition to another game stayed behind, but the meta game has greatly eclipsed the KeSPA days. Even mechanics-wise, some of the top players are still just fantastic overall. I can't remember who mentioned it in an interview that the current players are all on the same level of macro and it comes down to other ways to win games. If you want some recommendations to see this, I'm pretty sure lots of posters can provide links to their favourite ASL games. I can provide a 2017 Reflection writeup that has some links to show this point: 2017 Reflection - TeamLiquid BW Awards Also, the professional scene ended over 9 years ago and some players have improved immensely while others flattered or left the scene. Why are you even trying to compare Larva then to now? Is this some kind of a joke? You do realize that Larva was only on SKT T1 as a practice partner for 1-2 years at best and an old source told me that he was kicked off the team apparently? The Larva you see now, much like Last, Shuttle, Mini etc... improved greatly from their old days that it is extremely unfair to say (roughly translated) "look, he was ranked 120 back then yet he won a tournament now? low skill!!!!!". Have you seen a fpv game of Larva? Have you seen his muta micro? His ZvP skills? Have you even watched any of his games? Larva probably had some of the most miraculous growth among all BW pros, maybe aside from Soma (but Soma was never an expro). I wouldn't fault you for trying to do the comparison as bizzare as it is, because you may not be aware of all that went down in the last 9 years, but maybe this will help in regards to Larva: Larva No More - The Evolution All this to say that your post was very questionable because it is quite obvious that you are missing a lot of information. Much less the fact that Zerg pros are so damn good with mutas nowadays that it's insane. Personal anecdote: I remember watching a Larva fpv a long time back on eclipse where his mutas were just insanely good. He made a shot at a really weird angle which made it seem like muta range was extremely long. As a Terran player, it made me realize (I already knew, but just more confirmation) that mutas are such a tough unit to deal with that even top Terrans will fall if the Zerg has such strong micro. Add in BO optimization and you get an old strat becoming that much stronger. Honestly, players are still great overall, give credit where it's due ~ I think there's a way to acknowledge this while still reasoning that the pure mechanical level of players may still be lower than it was from like 2008-2011. Game knowledge is far more advanced now though. Is this a reasonable understanding of what changed in order for this to be viable?: The lower remastered lattency is very interesting @Lastscan and probably disproportionately advantages Zerg + BO optimisation from years of strategic development / adjustment to the quirks/differences brought on by Remastered + Mechanically, it's harder for Terran to defend than for Zerg to execute | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On August 03 2021 04:24 Magic Powers wrote: You're arguing against something that there's no need to argue against. Even skipping defilers altogether, terran would still be under time pressure. That's because with its existing ultra army, zerg can expand very rapidly, forcing terran to move out and hunt down fresh expansions and/or keep the ultra army small and low on HP. There are a number of good examples where zerg wins exactly in this way without needing defilers. It's because marines lose effectiveness as more ultra upgrades kick in, and being on two base terran can't keep up with zerg's mass production from 4-5 bases. Zerg grows disproportionally, and that puts terran under time pressure. PS: It makes no sense to say "no, it's not the ultras that put terran under time pressure" and then also say "I never said it's an either-or". I agree with what you're saying, but I think his point is that if the threat of defilers didn't exist, terran could kinda just sim city themselves in and trade efficiently vs ultras trying to attack, thus Terran wouldn't have to go out on the map (and risk taking bad trades vs ultras). But since defilers do exist, this option doesn't exist for Terran, they can't just barricade themselves in - because defilers will come in and ruin their day. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3843 Posts
On August 03 2021 05:50 krooked wrote: I agree with what you're saying, but I think his point is that if the threat of defilers didn't exist, terran could kinda just sim city themselves in and trade efficiently vs ultras trying to attack, thus Terran wouldn't have to go out on the map (and risk taking bad trades vs ultras). But since defilers do exist, this option doesn't exist for Terran, they can't just barricade themselves in - because defilers will come in and ruin their day. Like I said, there are examples proving that terran can't just sit back and let zerg grow, even without defilers. It also makes no logical sense: two base SKTerran is clearly inferior to 4-5 base ultras. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On August 03 2021 05:53 Magic Powers wrote: Like I said, there are examples proving that terran can't just sit back and let zerg grow, even without defilers. It also makes no logical sense: two base SKTerran is clearly inferior to 4-5 base ultras. Well, who's saying Terran can only sit on 2 base? With sim city and bunkers, mass marines could fend off even +5 ultras. | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
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Grounded God
5 Posts
Why would anybody choose to face 20 Ultras on the open, when he would have the choice to just take two new expansions with his 5 groups of MM sitting on ramps. They do it because they know that if Zerg also take another two bases they soon will see Defilers in front of their bases and will be unable to defend them. Zergs grow disproportionately because of the existence of the Defiler, which renders MM useless and thus forces the Terrans into a low base style to cope with their inability to defend versus them. It´s not an active decision to play on 2 bases all the time, because they like it so much. It´s because they know that they are unable to cope with late game Defiler/Ultra/Ling. Mech-switch was a way to handle the dilemma MM has in late game versus Defilers. PS: I didn´t read it properly as I focused on the "Both together form an extra strong combo" which I completely agree. | ||
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Grounded God
5 Posts
On August 03 2021 06:21 krooked wrote: Well, who's saying Terran can only sit on 2 base? With sim city and bunkers, mass marines could fend off even +5 ultras. Twelve fully upgraded Marines with stim kill a fully upgraded Ultra in (0.42*140)/12= 4.9s. So running a group of Ultras up a ramp versus 2-3 control groups waiting for them is just suicide and as you described there are ways to enhance the defenders advantage even more. A dark swarm lasts roughly 40 seconds, which would mean these twelve marines (stim is 13s*3(-30health)) could kill 8 Ultras in that time, if there was a sim city and bunkers to avoid their death. Nobody wants to play 2 base, Starcraft is a ressource based game, so you can roughly say the more bases and thus ressources you can aquire without dying or getting into a situation that disadvantages you too much the better, as it enables you to gain an advantage in the long run. | ||
KwarK
United States42481 Posts
For Scan this new style is a legit problem he needs to address. For literally everyone else in this topic you’re better off just getting better macro, multitasking, micro etc. A single build won’t make a bad player beat a good one. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
On August 03 2021 07:14 KwarK wrote: For literally everyone else in this topic you’re better off just getting better macro, multitasking, micro etc. A single build won’t make a bad player beat a good one. “Completely wrong. Even pro players lose to bad players all the time. Bad players can just get wins with luck, with stupid bullshit, random coincidence and scrape wins off. THIS build though is the reason why every terran is losing to zerg right now! THIS build lets bad players beat good players without even trying. They just […] and terran can’t do anything!” | ||
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Bonyth
Poland553 Posts
From what I've seen terran needs to attack just as his upgrade for marines kicks in, that's his window to be cost effective. Anyway i feel good for zergs about it, statistics were much above 50% in terran's favour over zerg. Hope it will get more balanced now. Imagine complaining about balance when u have the best win rate's, most bonjwas and most titles. | ||
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KwarK
United States42481 Posts
On August 03 2021 07:43 CHEONSOYUN wrote: “Completely wrong. Even pro players lose to bad players all the time. Bad players can just get wins with luck, with stupid bullshit, random coincidence and scrape wins off. THIS build though is the reason why every terran is losing to zerg right now! THIS build lets bad players beat good players without even trying. They just […] and terran can’t do anything!” But I'm a bad player. How come I don't beat pros all the time. | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
On August 03 2021 08:51 SolaR- wrote: Yea usually the better player will win. The problem with this strategy is you take two people of similar skill and if the zerg is to use this strategy they will most likely win. I think it is obvious a much better player will usually win, no one is arguing that. Strawman argument. BW isn't black or white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up well to higher lvls. | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote: BW isn't black and white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up to higher lvls as good either. Yea I can agree that brood war isn't always 1-1. Meaning I can beat someone better than me if I am good at a strategy they're bad going against. Since there are many styles to the game you can be bad at one concept and good vs another. But I am saying if hypothetically the stars align and both players are of equal skill in all facets, this strategy will win. I think the Rush vs Action series has proved this. Collectively where we currently understand on how to play TVZ in BW is wrong which makes Crazy Zerg very hard to beat. Whether its the current meta or the maps or the latency. Whatever it is, obviously terrans needs to think of something. Lets hope that they can otherwise we are going to be seeing a lot of terrans not succeed in ASL. | ||
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
On August 03 2021 09:19 SolaR- wrote: Yea I can agree that brood war isn't always 1-1. Meaning I can beat someone better than me if I am good at a strategy they're bad going against. Since there are many styles to the game you can be bad at one concept and good vs another. But I am saying if hypothetically the stars align and both players are of equal skill in all facets, this strategy will win. I think the Rush vs Action series has proved this. Collectively where we currently understand on how to play TVZ in BW is wrong which makes Crazy Zerg very hard to beat. Whether its the current meta or the maps or the latency. Whatever it is, obviously terrans needs to think of something. Lets hope that they can otherwise we are going to be seeing a lot of terrans not succeed in ASL. the style is definitely easier to execute, that said there's preventive counters like 1-1-1 openers if Terran doesn't want to play a preventive style they just need to optimize their standard openers, they need to scan and confirm Z is going crazy zerg, once they do there's definitely certain timings they can hit, like a 2-4 valk timing off of a standard bio opener, it's a small change but it makes a huge difference, that allows T to regain tempo/map control that way you hit an extremely strong/punishing timing before ultras are out, you either kill Z or slow him down a lot (by getting good trades/forcing sunks) while powering up into your standard lategame obviously if you let Z drone and power up freely you're gonna have a ton of trouble going into the lategame, this is something P has been dealing with for 10-15+ years in PvZ.. it's much easier to whine instead of thinking of ways to overcome an obstacle  , human nature! | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6542 Posts
On August 03 2021 09:30 TT1 wrote: the style is definitely easier to execute, that said there's preventive counters like 1-1-1 openers if Terran doesn't want to play a preventive style they just need to optimize their standard openers, they need to scan and confirm Z is going crazy zerg, once they do there's definitely certain timings they can hit, like a 2-4 valk timing off of a standard bio opener, it's a small change but it makes a huge difference, that allows T to regain tempo/map control that way you hit an extremely strong/punishing timing, you either kill the Z or slow him down a lot (by getting good trades/forcing sunks) while powering up into your standard lategame it's much easier to whine instead of thinking of ways to overcome an obstacle , human nature!Is crazy they have that shitty spell that cost 50 energy to scout all game long and they still cry they cant figure out what zerg is doing LOL. Terran players have no shame man. 1-1-1 reached a 90% win rate in TvZ. I doubt this new zvt build reach 65% but they going crazy that zvt is broken smh. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote: BW isn't black or white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up well to higher lvls. Crazy zerg doesn't need muta micro, in fact it doesn't even require mutas. At lower levels especially, simply going straight into evo chambers and hive tech off of 3 base and mass sunkens is extremely potent. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 03 2021 05:09 Eywa- wrote: I think there's a way to acknowledge this while still reasoning that the pure mechanical level of players may still be lower than it was from like 2008-2011. Game knowledge is far more advanced now though. Is this a reasonable understanding of what changed in order for this to be viable?: The lower remastered lattency is very interesting @Lastscan and probably disproportionately advantages Zerg + BO optimisation from years of strategic development / adjustment to the quirks/differences brought on by Remastered + Mechanically, it's harder for Terran to defend than for Zerg to execute The point of my post was to provide him some information about the current scene because he was severely lacking it otherwise he wouldn't have made the Larva comparison considering a ton of notable players out there have actually complimented his meteoric rise in skill. As mentioned, I would be more than willing to recommend series from over the years that really showcase the kind of skill these expros put on during ASL. Likewise, different players have different peaks and players like Shuttle, Last or Larva (there are others) are heads and shoulders above their old KeSPA self because even if they didn't have the same team environment, a lot of these guys grinded BW like madmen through the years after the switch due to various factors (love for the game, money etc...). Furthermore, it's impossible to quantify the decline, if one even agrees that it is there. How do you even measure it? You just can't so using the argument that the skill declined which is why this strategy is good again is just lazy arguing from my perspective. More so when you consider that even if you think the mechanics aren't as good as before, surely, there must be other reasons that it has resurfaced and is apparently really good right now. One thing is certain from my perspective, a lot of top Zerg players have scary good muta micro that helps make this strat that much better. Your points regarding why it's a strong strat atm are in line with my thoughts. | ||
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
On August 03 2021 10:09 krooked wrote: Crazy zerg doesn't need muta micro, in fact it doesn't even require mutas. At lower levels especially, simply going straight into evo chambers and hive tech off of 3 base and mass sunkens is extremely potent. i don't disagree, you can do a lot of various styles at lower lvls, imo that's what makes the game fun (and honestly this is viable until ~low S) experimenting with builds and picking up mechanical skills along the way isn't a bad thing BW is a blank canvas, what you decide to do with it is up to you, that's why there's so many distinct playstyles at the pro lvl (BeSt's macro, Bisu's multitask, Snow's micro, ZeloT's cheese, Shine's builds, EffOrt's macro, JD's multitask, Sharp's vult play, Rush's aggro macro style, FlaSh's optimized defensive play, Light's multitask etc.) at those lvls players develop styles to complement their strengths but their playstyle is shaped by their in-game experiences, from the lowest lvl to where they are today TLDR BW #1 bb | ||
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confusedzerg
Russian Federation102 Posts
On July 28 2021 03:39 Highgamer wrote: Why? Isn't that the authentic BW experience? Yeah but then they don't get the full picture since Artosis never illustrates how unfair terran can be. Everything is OP. | ||
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confusedzerg
Russian Federation102 Posts
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Xenixx
United States499 Posts
On July 31 2021 15:01 LaStScan wrote: Everyone played on 210ms latency in sc1.16 version. Currently everyone prefers to play on tr24 in sc:remastered. Tr14 low(3000/14 =~214ms) is almost equivalent to sc1.16 udp/chaoslauncher #l2 speed. Muta micro on tr24 low(125ms) vs tr14 low(214ms) is a completely different world. Just FYI for everyone. The game always supported TR24 (on LAN) and turn rate determines the MAXIMUM amount of latency it can tolerate. LAN is <5ms or effectively no latency depending on what that LAN looks like. Also turn rate is not the same thing as latency and they are getting confused. They are also probably getting confused with input delay, which is even weirder for nerds to do. I'm a Network Engineer, though I haven't looked into SC:BW in depth this dev blog entry backs this all up. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/turn-rates-matchmaking-and-you/519 | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
On August 03 2021 06:27 SolaR- wrote: Wraith obvious counter because ultras cant shoot air... Combine that with ghost, lockdown on the ultras, and you are good to go. | ||
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MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
I am not saying that Crazy Zerg might not be overpowered, but we have to wait like 2 years to actually say so. 22 years of BW history taught us that there have always been strategies that looked overpowered but were ultimately solved. But it takes time, even in KESPA days it took months and years for players and coaching staff to figure stuff out. Let's see, maybe Crazy Zerg will stay overpowered for the rest of our lives, but at least give it some time. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1166 Posts
You know the drill. If you don't - probably StarCraft isn't the best fit for your mindset. | ||
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HKL23
1 Post
On July 31 2021 04:38 Nikon wrote: I don't know if Scan is wrong, but I'm going to be brutally honest here: The level of pro-play today is lower than what it used to be during KeSPA days. There simply isn't as robust support system and many teams to help bring out the best in players. So I can indiscriminately counter any "pros lose to this" with just "pros aren't the top of skill". Consider that Larva who is a top-rank zerg now was #120 during KeSPA and that he has aged 10 years since then. Just let that sink in for a moment. He was barely approaching middle of the pack then. Not a lot of games, true, but undeniably, the level of competition today is lower than it could possibly be. The scene is just a lot smaller and the quality of the games suffers as a result. I guess my point is that T players today aren't equipped well enough to deal with the force multiplier that muta micro is, while Z players kind of have to have it or go bust due to it being pretty much required in 2/3 matchups. Why is larvas Kespa ranking relevant to today? Do you honestly believe people have gotten worse after 10 more years of playing the game? If you sent Larva or Scan back to 2006 they would probably stomp everything. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
They did practice a hell of a lot more back then, with team houses and all that. | ||
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confusedzerg
Russian Federation102 Posts
On August 03 2021 13:53 confusedzerg wrote: I think T might be able to counter this by going up to perhaps 3 factories when they're on 3 bases, and just nonstop pumping vultures from them. Spider mines do really well, and at the very least they provide buffer between marines and the ultras. We see it all the time in pro games: ultras dying to mines, way too excessively, even at the top level. Use the excess vulture supply to do runbys and shit. Also, to add to my own post, I think you could even transition (later on) into adding two addons to those factories. I'm talking lategame. Just alternating between 2 tanks 1 vulture/1 tank 2 vultures/3 vultures in the building queue, all of course depending on the current situation. I really think pros are gonna end up using faster spider mines to deal with this style. I mean, think about it, I really don't think irradiate is the way per se. I just think it's not exactly optimal vs crazy zerg. Mines, on the other hand, do a phat 121 damage to ultras by the time they're out. And we often see in pro games that the zerg literally moves out with 12 ultras only. Imagine if T already had lots of mines around the map? 2 factories at first, but then a total of 3 later on. They would, at the very least, fend off the ultras and give T some breathing room. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On August 04 2021 02:00 HKL23 wrote: Why is larvas Kespa ranking relevant to today? Do you honestly believe people have gotten worse after 10 more years of playing the game? If you sent Larva or Scan back to 2006 they would probably stomp everything. In the past, no one was good at optimization. even with mineral patches/mining path and so on. Current level(optimization/micro level/timing/etc) is much higher than KeSPA era. Some people may say KeSPA era players > Afreeca era players, but you can't say as a conclusion. They both played in a different latency(SC1.16 UDP/LAN is 210ms and remastered is 125ms). Also, everyone was able to learn from FP livestream + improve at the same time. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden509 Posts
On August 04 2021 16:49 LaStScan wrote: In the past, no one was good at optimization. even with mineral patches/mining path and so on. Current level(optimization/micro level/timing/etc) is much higher than KeSPA era. Some people may say KeSPA era players > Afreeca era players, but you can't say as a conclusion. They both played in a different latency(SC1.16 UDP/LAN is 210ms and remastered is 125ms). Also, everyone was able to learn from FP livestream + improve at the same time. On August 03 2021 14:25 Xenixx wrote: Just FYI for everyone. The game always supported TR24 (on LAN) and turn rate determines the MAXIMUM amount of latency it can tolerate. LAN is <5ms or effectively no latency depending on what that LAN looks like. Also turn rate is not the same thing as latency and they are getting confused. They are also probably getting confused with input delay, which is even weirder for nerds to do. I'm a Network Engineer, though I haven't looked into SC:BW in depth this dev blog entry backs this all up. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/turn-rates-matchmaking-and-you/519 As Xenixx stated, turn rate generates a max latency threshhold. That is, if latency (=~2*ping) is more than 125ms in tr24 low, the turn rate will change (to f.e tr 20 low) to avoid stutter lag (if i understood this correctly). This means players using tr24 (or tr14 in 1.16? Not sure what you are refering to here. LAN was tr24 in 1.16 too) can still have a latency of just a few ms. I have tr24 low from sweden to EAST NA (~100ms latency), but its noticably more laggy than tr24 low with someone from sweden (~10-20ms latency). | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On August 03 2021 14:25 Xenixx wrote: Just FYI for everyone. The game always supported TR24 (on LAN) and turn rate determines the MAXIMUM amount of latency it can tolerate. LAN is <5ms or effectively no latency depending on what that LAN looks like. Also turn rate is not the same thing as latency and they are getting confused. They are also probably getting confused with input delay, which is even weirder for nerds to do. I'm a Network Engineer, though I haven't looked into SC:BW in depth this dev blog entry backs this all up. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/turn-rates-matchmaking-and-you/519 You're the one getting confused here: turn rate directly affects minimum input latency, because StarCraft runs in lockstep with buffered inputs. If the turn rate is X, every 1/X seconds, all of the commands that you made are batched together and sent to the other side. However, since the StarCraft engine requires that the entire game state be known and deterministic, commands are actually scheduled to happen several turns in the future (3 for low, 4 for high, 5 for extra high). This gives time for commands to arrive on networks with jitter (which is all of them). Even if you have a magical instantaneous network connection, the input latency is going to be at least 3/TR seconds (depending on when you click, it'll be somewhere between 3 and 4 ticks). On August 04 2021 17:00 A.Alm wrote: As Xenixx stated, turn rate generates a max latency threshhold. That is, if latency (=~2*ping) is more than 125ms in tr24 low, the turn rate will change (to f.e tr 20 low) to avoid stutter lag (if i understood this correctly). This means players using tr24 (or tr14 in 1.16? Not sure what you are refering to here. LAN was tr24 in 1.16 too) can still have a latency of just a few ms. I have tr24 low from sweden to EAST NA (~100ms latency), but its noticably more laggy than tr24 low with someone from sweden (~10-20ms latency). Yes, because the latency between two points doesn't have one exact value, it's a distribution centered vaguely around the single number you've measured. If a packet takes longer than 125ms to arrive, you'll stutter, and you obviously have a lot less headroom at 100ms than 10ms. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7926 Posts
Is this crazy zerg? Seems like it is , to me, because of fast ultras Spoilers for video (not actual spoilers) + Show Spoiler + Spoilers again (maybe real spoilers) + Show Spoiler + Nice usage of ensnareee! Reminded me of the game between my baby and Fantasy, where the most amazing attack ever in the history of BW was made!!!!! | ||
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prosatan
Romania7926 Posts
Maybe it has to do with Central Europe Time or smth... i am no good at this | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
On August 05 2021 00:04 prosatan wrote: Look at the first game in this series Team Mini vs Team Hero(sorry vs soma) Is this crazy zerg? Seems like it is , to me, because of fast ultras Spoilers for video (not actual spoilers) + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBkijrRQynQ Spoilers again (maybe real spoilers) + Show Spoiler + Nice usage of ensnareee! Reminded me of the game between my baby and Fantasy, where the most amazing attack ever in the history of BW was made!!!!! Yea that's crazy zerg. A lot of variations of it. The ensare isn't necessary to be considered crazy zerg but that seems very effective. Also, if needed they typically abuse sunkens and mass them at bases but looks like Soma didnt need to this game. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1417 Posts
On August 05 2021 00:05 prosatan wrote: WOW!!! a cake appears next to my name but my birthday is tommorow Maybe it has to do with Central Europe Time or smth... i am no good at this Happy Birthday Satan! ^_._^ I LOVE crazy Zerg! Especially when it works.. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7926 Posts
On August 05 2021 19:31 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: Happy Birthday Satan! ^_._^ I LOVE crazy Zerg! Especially when it works.. Thank youuuu!!    | ||
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rararara
115 Posts
You can see how it works but also in which timings it's very vulnerable (at least this build). A game earlier you can see him lose to a rush with the same build. It's interesting to see how much mindgame is going on with the early lingspeed and muta harasses. The interplay of confusing opponents and reacting to their speculations seems to be very important to get this build through. Fun stuff! | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On August 03 2021 10:09 BigFan wrote: The point of my post was to provide him some information about the current scene because he was severely lacking it otherwise he wouldn't have made the Larva comparison considering a ton of notable players out there have actually complimented his meteoric rise in skill. As mentioned, I would be more than willing to recommend series from over the years that really showcase the kind of skill these expros put on during ASL. Likewise, different players have different peaks and players like Shuttle, Last or Larva (there are others) are heads and shoulders above their old KeSPA self because even if they didn't have the same team environment, a lot of these guys grinded BW like madmen through the years after the switch due to various factors (love for the game, money etc...). Furthermore, it's impossible to quantify the decline, if one even agrees that it is there. How do you even measure it? You just can't so using the argument that the skill declined which is why this strategy is good again is just lazy arguing from my perspective. More so when you consider that even if you think the mechanics aren't as good as before, surely, there must be other reasons that it has resurfaced and is apparently really good right now. One thing is certain from my perspective, a lot of top Zerg players have scary good muta micro that helps make this strat that much better. Your points regarding why it's a strong strat atm are in line with my thoughts. OK. Let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose everyone is much better. Even though they don't have the team structure they used to. Even though most of the top names are immediately recogniseable to me. That alone should be a huge red flag. Usually top talent would turn over much faster than ten years. What that means is there's a shrink, no new blood coming in is causing stagnation. Eventually the top players of today will start experiencing physical issues due to getting older and pushing themselves at such a high level - elbow problems, wrist problems, we've seen it before in SC pros, it's nothing new. Perhaps that's a different conversation, but from an outsider perspective, there's a very clear downward trend and it's unlikely to get better. So, the natural question is, why haven't Terrans had the same increase in ability? People tell me it's impossible, but let's be honest - not engaging mutalisks over open ground is not a problem in the game mechanics. Honestly, I've come back to a drove of people saying terran is the hardest, zerg this, protoss that, terran players are much better but magically keep losing because of broken strats, whatever. It all just reads like low-tier balance whine. And it's not just one or two people, it's a lot of people that I've interacted in passing with over the last month. Honestly, I simply can't believe that after all of these years people have only just figured out how to properly micro mutas last month. But the sentiment is so ubiquitous, that even suggesting that perhaps the players aren't as good as you think they are and that's why they're having problems is akin to sacrilege. Honestly, at this point I don't know what is worse: me being right, or me being wrong. But what I can definitely say is that this is not the broodwar I used to stay up to 3am to watch. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland553 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On August 07 2021 00:06 Bonyth wrote: I suppose progamers could be mechanically worse compared to kespa times because they play much much fewer games daily. However, I would still take today's progamers to beat kespa progamers, because i believe experiance is more important than better clicking. And this is why I believe u're wrong about the stagnation and new blood. The old guys keep getting better (decisions, reactions and understanding) so the potential new blood needs to climb even higher with each passing year. While that is a good point to make, I could make the reverse point: teams used to have coaches that would specifically sit down with you, cut ddown your game piecemeal and help you focus on areas where you are lacking. Showing you correct decisions, etc, etc. So while I woudl disagree with you that today's understanding is that much better, I still think that what you say about new blood having to climb higher each new year is true. It used to be a lot easier, relatively speaking, to break into being a top name, simply because of the support structure that existed. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 06 2021 23:43 Nikon wrote: OK. Let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose everyone is much better. Even though they don't have the team structure they used to. Even though most of the top names are immediately recogniseable to me. That alone should be a huge red flag. Usually top talent would turn over much faster than ten years. What that means is there's a shrink, no new blood coming in is causing stagnation. Eventually the top players of today will start experiencing physical issues due to getting older and pushing themselves at such a high level - elbow problems, wrist problems, we've seen it before in SC pros, it's nothing new. Perhaps that's a different conversation, but from an outsider perspective, there's a very clear downward trend and it's unlikely to get better. So, the natural question is, why haven't Terrans had the same increase in ability? People tell me it's impossible, but let's be honest - not engaging mutalisks over open ground is not a problem in the game mechanics. Honestly, I've come back to a drove of people saying terran is the hardest, zerg this, protoss that, terran players are much better but magically keep losing because of broken strats, whatever. It all just reads like low-tier balance whine. And it's not just one or two people, it's a lot of people that I've interacted in passing with over the last month. Honestly, I simply can't believe that after all of these years people have only just figured out how to properly micro mutas last month. But the sentiment is so ubiquitous, that even suggesting that perhaps the players aren't as good as you think they are and that's why they're having problems is akin to sacrilege. Honestly, at this point I don't know what is worse: me being right, or me being wrong. But what I can definitely say is that this is not the broodwar I used to stay up to 3am to watch. You are misreading my post. I never said everyone is much better and certainly, I never said that mechanically players are all better. That would be absolutely silly. Some players are better due to reaching higher peaks and others are worse. Players like Larva, Shuttle, Last etc.. are regarded as being of the former while players like Bisu, Jaedong and Stork (ironic that it's TBLS) are the latter. As mentioned, it's also impossible to quantify this in any way. How would you even measure the performance? Look at the supply in games? reaction times? macro? Flash has went on record on his stream before to say that he would beat his past self because of how much strategy has evolved since the KeSPA days, but if his old self can learn the strategy, then he would win. You are also trying to make this some black and white situation when it is not since different players thrive in different environments. Furthermore, you even tried to use Larva to support your argument which is why you got called out on it. Yes, it's true that we still have lots of expros, but Bonyth's point is likely a major reason for it. Even if the players don't practice as much as before, they don't need as much practice to maintain their skills, and it's extremely difficult for new blood to catch up to experienced veterans of the game. We do have some new blood in the scene in the form of Soma, who was never an expro, but he is the one who repopularized 2h play afaik. There are some players like Bishop who main random, but can only play BW for x months at a time due to having to work the rest of the year to be able to do this. We have had amateurs make it into ASL since at least ASL2 and show some promising games, but we haven't had a lot of them sticking around, aka make it into ASL continuously since offline qualifiers are quite difficult. There has always been balance whine in the BW community (less than SCII one, but still there at times). Any time a player beats another and posters feel that it shouldn't have happened, you get droves of balance whine. Go check out the KSL finals LR thread between Last and Jaedong and you'll see the perfect example. Thankfully, they are mostly limited to LR threads in recent years. Well, RM has brought back some old fans, but we also got a small injection of newcomers from other games (probably more SCII than others I would presume due to SC name), but balance whine is balance whine regardless. They learned to properly micro mutas last month? what are you talking about? You still seem to be ignoring the fact that the KeSPA era finished almost a decade ago and the metagame has shifted greatly since, especially when Flash came back in 2016. It's well known and accepted in both the foreign and Korean community that the understanding of the game is miles above the KeSPA era. This also includes BO optimization which is extremely important at their level. Having more units at a faster timing can make all the difference. The one way you would know this is if you watched the progression in real time or someone documented it, but there has been no such effort to document it aside from some articles written by TL staff here and there: Flash's Starcraft Wakanda in Afreeca. I'm pretty sure Crazy Zerg will be solved at some point in the near future, much like how Zergs solved 5 rax +1 into mech, 1-1-1 etc.. It's just a matter of time. As for why this BW isn't the same one you stayed up to 3am, you tell me, but nothing stays the same. If you want some good games to reignite your passion and to see how great the players still are, I can recommend some well-known series, otherwise I can only hope that this post gave you a bit more insight into the scene. Ex. Q: From a big picture perspective, where does the focus of your 1-1-1 differ from that of sSak’s 1-1-1? A: The underlying base is very similar but the devil’s in the details. For example, sSak goes for refinery at 11 but I build it at 12. Small differences like this make a huge difference in the character of the build. Besides that, the ways in which we react to the opponent’s builds are totally different as well. My reactions focus on minimizing vultures and even wraiths whenever possible. On the other hand, sSak uses wraiths and speed-upgrade vultures quite often. My focus is on minimizing such units with an eye on a han-bang rush. In my version, a fast han-bang rush becomes possible around 8:30-9:30. Q: You mix the 1-1-1 with +1 5-rax quite effectively. Does this force Zerg to mix between 3-hatch and 18-hatch builds? A: That is a given. You always have to mix well. That said, these days, Zergs have learned to deal with the 1-1-1 within the framework of the 3-hatch opening. They will opt for the 3-hatch opening even after scouting the 1-1-1. Advancements in StarCraft are ongoing even now. People have always said that this build or that build is invincible for a short while but they have always been proven wrong. If you give pros enough time, they will find a way. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On August 07 2021 00:06 Bonyth wrote: I suppose progamers could be mechanically worse compared to kespa times because they play much much fewer games daily. However, I would still take today's progamers to beat kespa progamers, because i believe experiance is more important than better clicking. And this is why I believe u're wrong about the stagnation and new blood. The old guys keep getting better (decisions, reactions and understanding) so the potential new blood needs to climb even higher with each passing year. I think this has a lot of truth to it. The insurmountable wall of the top BW progamer in 2021 is so unbelievably hard to overcome as some new ladder talent because the former has literally played the game for over a decade and has accrued so much strategical know-how that it doesn't even matter at this point if they don't grind 12 hours a day in a team-house (which some might say is cognitively an improvement in itself), because the opposition simply cannot catch up. And even if they theoretically could, it would be a case of the old "wow this teenager isn't even risking his immediate income and the next decade to become good at a 23 year old game that is dead in the West". Like you said, this experience is more important than that little added APM that the younger guys might have. And didn't Zero mention at some point that the BW streamer pros of today know about the game a lot more than in the KeSPA days, but are mechanically inferior to their former selves because I doubt even the top zergs spend hours a day in a muta micro map for example like before | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On August 07 2021 15:07 Akio wrote: I think this has a lot of truth to it. The insurmountable wall of the top BW progamer in 2021 is so unbelievably hard to overcome as some new ladder talent because the former has literally played the game for over a decade and has accrued so much strategical know-how that it doesn't even matter at this point if they don't grind 12 hours a day in a team-house (which some might say is cognitively an improvement in itself), because the opposition simply cannot catch up. And even if they theoretically could, it would be a case of the old "wow this teenager isn't even risking his immediate income and the next decade to become good at a 23 year old game that is dead in the West". Like you said, this experience is more important than that little added APM that the younger guys might have. And didn't Zero mention at some point that the BW streamer pros of today know about the game a lot more than in the KeSPA days, but are mechanically inferior to their former selves because I doubt even the top zergs spend hours a day in a muta micro map for example like before But new talent will have way better tools to learn the game, and stand on the shoulders of the work laid down by the Kespa pros of yore. | ||
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TMNT
2629 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
To me at least. And we act like the strategies and build orders they had in that time are somehow obsolete? The game hasnt changed one bit since those days so they are just as valid now as they were back in the days. I believe this game is so mechanincally dependent that a pro from 2010 would beat an asl champion of todays day and age. The mechanics of 12-15 hours of practice in a teamhouse with other super good pros cant be swept under the rug imo. | ||
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Puosu
6984 Posts
On August 08 2021 05:48 Timebon3s wrote: If you look at the game from the kespa times, the macro, army controll and overall tempo of the game looks much better than the ASL games. To me at least. And we act like the strategies and build orders they had in that time are somehow obsolete? The game hasnt changed one bit since those days so they are just as valid now as they were back in the days. I believe this game is so mechanincally dependent that a pro from 2010 would beat an asl champion of todays day and age. The mechanics of 12-15 hours of practice in a teamhouse with other super good pros cant be swept under the rug imo. but it seems that at least flash, zero and scan disagree with you ? | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On August 08 2021 02:11 krooked wrote: But new talent will have way better tools to learn the game, and stand on the shoulders of the work laid down by the Kespa pros of yore. That's exactly right. Armchair posters frequently downplay the contributions of theorycrafters who may be strategically-minded but not have the mechanics to execute at a pro level, when in fact it is those theorycrafters who are the true gateway toward innovating solutions in order to continue evolving the metagame. For example, on Grubby's War3 streams, he has a paid incentive to follow certain build directives. Most of the time they're silly (play your next game using only casters), but there is a guy in his chat named SaveOrcas who frequently donates to this incentive with new legitimate tryhard build order ideas. Grubby is known as an innovative player himself, so when he was playing many of SaveOrcas' request builds which were centered around Farseer first + mass Headhunters and found initial success, Grubby acknowledged that "there may be something viable here, let's try this in a few more high-skill games and see if we can develop it further". It eventually shifted game balance in multiple matchups and became a core build option for world-class Orc players, born in the year 2020 from the mind of a guy in the chat who did his research. The ideas for beating a strategy can come from anywhere, and although only pros will be able to optimize them, outright dismissing them with gatekeeper language like "you're not S-Rank so you don't get it" does nothing to further the cause and only contributes to circular logic and continued frustration for viewers and players alike. | ||
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GuiBz
Canada108 Posts
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
BW top players are purely koreans and who can speak to them? Only koreans. So brainstorming new strats without koreans playing em wont help anyone. So in the end you invent a strat which works vs noobs. Also there are plenty more ways of punishing new bold strats in BW. | ||
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LinYu_roy
Germany21 Posts
On August 08 2021 05:13 TMNT wrote: Not sure how the comparison between kespa and modern players was brought into this topic, but I think Flash himself said that kespa players have higher skill but players nowadays have more understanding of the game, so the latter would probably beat the former, but if you give the former some time to learn the new knowledge, they would beat modern players. +1 Zero has said the same, if I remember correctly. He said he used to play 30+ games per day back then, and if he played any less than that he could feel that his micro was off. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On August 09 2021 02:35 GuiBz wrote: I think it is all about delaying that 3rd base. Everything is gas expensive for the zerg. There's that little timing that anyone knows where T go out with stim and 2 medics before the Mutas. I think we should use that little timing to find the 3rd base and denying it. This can be strong, but its a complete gamble. If Z makes enough units and wipes it out, you're extremely far behind. | ||
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engineNOVA
United States67 Posts
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superovermind
4 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3351 Posts
On September 01 2021 14:52 superovermind wrote: What's the build order for this? Crazy zerg is more a type of transition and not really a build order. Essentially you get ground carapace upgrade when you can, then transition to hive during the muta phase (when your 3rd is up) while skipping lurkers and aim for ultras/defilers/cracklings with strong carapace upgrade and try to get more bases. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On September 01 2021 22:54 WGT-Baal wrote: Crazy zerg is more a type of transition and not really a build order. Essentially you get ground carapace upgrade when you can, then transition to hive during the muta phase (when your 3rd is up) while skipping lurkers and aim for ultras/defilers/cracklings with strong carapace upgrade and try to get more bases. Another way to look at it is as a playstyle, like mech vs bio. Crazy zergs most defining trait is imo 1) ultras 2) lack of defilers 3) fast carapace upgrades. Within these parameteres, players like ZeLoT gets some lurkers, others skip mutas entirely, or get a fair number of mutas. Some take 3rd before gas, other do it from 2H mutas and so on. | ||
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iopq
United States904 Posts
On August 03 2021 09:11 TT1 wrote: BW isn't black or white like that, a lower lvl player can't execute this b.o as good (relative to an equal player) because it requires good muta micro. They'll just get punished by bio pushes. There's a certain skill lvl threshold needed to make a b.o like this viable for Z. It's funny because this same concept applies to 2 base 5 fact 1-1 pushes, the style is easy to execute and you can beat players better than you. That said 5 fact 1-1 doesn't scale up well to higher lvls. Only make 7 mutas then? Terran has to respect the initial mutalisk production anyway, I had a guy not make that many turrets and he still lost like 10 SCVs to only 7 mutas. Not like he can counter when I have 7 sunkens in the front You can literally do it without mutas as well, but you need a ton of sunkens and some zergling/scourge for patrolling drops | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines527 Posts
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Jealous
10115 Posts
On October 23 2021 11:11 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: never has been and never will be, soma did everything artosis complained about and still lost to rush. crazy zerg being OP is terran propaganda People keep making the mistake of listening to Artosis, nothing new. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On October 23 2021 12:14 Jealous wrote: People keep making the mistake of listening to Artosis, nothing new. Man, its going to be weird when his kids can read english and start exploring TL and see us all BMing him and then wonders why and then discovers all the finely aged vintage artosis whine threads from the early to mid 2000s. Would probably have an identity crisis if I was one of those Artosilings. | ||
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flashimba
225 Posts
On October 23 2021 11:11 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: never has been and never will be, soma did everything artosis complained about and still lost to rush. crazy zerg being OP is terran propaganda Guardians are part of crazy zerg now? | ||
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
so brute force macro is the counter and sunken break? maybe elevator drops. That will make it hard to beat it on lower levels. By the way it seemed to me that mechanically rush was a stronger player in general than soma in all the games. | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On October 29 2021 05:24 zimp wrote: Here is the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HjSsaMqPb0&t=1735s so brute force macro is the counter and sunken break? maybe elevator drops. That will make it hard to beat it on lower levels. By the way it seemed to me that mechanically rush was a stronger player in general than soma in all the games. + Show Spoiler + Maybe this game instead? It follows closely the version that Action and Soma used couple of months ago. Edit: it starts at 1:10:50. | ||
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