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On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa"
Source?
He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community...
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On May 28 2011 19:44 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\
Sorry to engage in this tangential discussion, but the problem I have with the Elo argument for Bisu's PvT is this. Imagine Zero is showing great success in ZvT in Proleague but gets eliminated from a Starleague in (previously) typical fashion by losing two ZvZs. He continues to do well in Proleague, winning most of his ZvTs, even managing a win against Flash (before losing two more rather soundly). Jaedong, despite showing similar success, unfortunately meets Light in that Starleague finals and loses 0-3, and meets him a few more times in Proleague and loses some more. Suddenly Jaedong's ZvT Elo has fallen below Zero's. Is Zero the better ZvT player despite having the good fortune of not having to play Light, his teammate, that only has the second-best TvZ in the world but is still an extreme outlier? I wonder.
The good, impartial thing about Elo in other venues is that the pool of players you're competing with is everyone but yourself. However, in BW, that pool is everyone but yourself and your teammates, especially when you've had no Starleague success for two straight years and have not had to endure any teamkills.
Bisu's PvT is statistically great, and it may very well be the current best in BW, especially with Stork's struggles. I wouldn't go so far as that other guy, but I still just have lingering doubts. He's 1-4 against Flash in the last year and doesn't even have to face Fantasy. Fantasy may not be as good as Flash, but he's still second-best by a huge margin. And most of us should remember what happened in Bisu and Fantasy's last Bo5. If Bisu can't beat Flash consistently, I at least want to see him have to beat Fantasy. Before that, it's hard for me to accept that his PvT is qualitatively better than the Elo rating's runners-up.
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On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community...
He was never crowned by the korean community
I don't even know where you got that information
source?
Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid
and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa
bonjwa isn't even an official thing
there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa
if neither of them are bonjwa
I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap
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On May 28 2011 20:55 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 19:44 ArvickHero wrote:On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\ Sorry to engage in this tangential discussion, but the problem I have with the Elo argument for Bisu's PvT is this. Imagine Zero is showing great success in ZvT in Proleague but gets eliminated from a Starleague in (previously) typical fashion by losing two ZvZs. He continues to do well in Proleague, winning most of his ZvTs, even managing a win against Flash (before losing two more rather soundly). Jaedong, despite showing similar success, unfortunately meets Light in that Starleague finals and loses 0-3, and meets him a few more times in Proleague and loses some more. Suddenly Jaedong's ZvT Elo has fallen below Zero's. Is Zero the better ZvT player despite having the good fortune of not having to play Light, his teammate, that only has the second-best TvZ in the world but is still an extreme outlier? I wonder. The good, impartial thing about Elo in other venues is that the pool of players you're competing with is everyone but yourself. However, in BW, that pool is everyone but yourself and your teammates, especially when you've had no Starleague success for two straight years and have not had to endure any teamkills. Bisu's PvT is statistically great, and it may very well be the current best in BW, especially with Stork's struggles. I wouldn't go so far as that other guy, but I still just have lingering doubts. He's 1-4 against Flash in the last year and doesn't even have to face Fantasy. Fantasy may not be as good as Flash, but he's still second-best by a huge margin. And most of us should remember what happened in Bisu and Fantasy's last Bo5. If Bisu can't beat Flash consistently, I at least want to see him have to beat Fantasy. Before that, it's hard for me to accept that his PvT is qualitatively better than the Elo rating's runners-up.
It was ForGG, and teamkills usually produce silly results just like that 0-3.
On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap
Flash was officially crowned by koreans as a bonjwa after he defeated JD in Korean Air OSL S2.
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On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap
There are interviews, like the one I quoted in my signature, commentators have been calling him bonjwa and/or above bonjwa for a long time, etc.
So unless you can offer any sort of proof, which I highly doubt, you're nothing but trolling.
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On May 28 2011 21:05 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:55 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On May 28 2011 19:44 ArvickHero wrote:On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\ Sorry to engage in this tangential discussion, but the problem I have with the Elo argument for Bisu's PvT is this. Imagine Zero is showing great success in ZvT in Proleague but gets eliminated from a Starleague in (previously) typical fashion by losing two ZvZs. He continues to do well in Proleague, winning most of his ZvTs, even managing a win against Flash (before losing two more rather soundly). Jaedong, despite showing similar success, unfortunately meets Light in that Starleague finals and loses 0-3, and meets him a few more times in Proleague and loses some more. Suddenly Jaedong's ZvT Elo has fallen below Zero's. Is Zero the better ZvT player despite having the good fortune of not having to play Light, his teammate, that only has the second-best TvZ in the world but is still an extreme outlier? I wonder. The good, impartial thing about Elo in other venues is that the pool of players you're competing with is everyone but yourself. However, in BW, that pool is everyone but yourself and your teammates, especially when you've had no Starleague success for two straight years and have not had to endure any teamkills. Bisu's PvT is statistically great, and it may very well be the current best in BW, especially with Stork's struggles. I wouldn't go so far as that other guy, but I still just have lingering doubts. He's 1-4 against Flash in the last year and doesn't even have to face Fantasy. Fantasy may not be as good as Flash, but he's still second-best by a huge margin. And most of us should remember what happened in Bisu and Fantasy's last Bo5. If Bisu can't beat Flash consistently, I at least want to see him have to beat Fantasy. Before that, it's hard for me to accept that his PvT is qualitatively better than the Elo rating's runners-up. It was ForGG, and teamkills usually produce silly results just like that 0-3. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap Flash was officially crowned as a bonjwa after he defeated JD in Korean Air OSL S2.
Um, he wasn't referencing actual events that happened like the Arenal MSL finals, that entire thing was a hypothetical.
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Japan11286 Posts
For me the the title, 'bonjwa' only really fits savior. He is the definition of bonjwa, the unparalleled ZvT despite hostile maps and zerg-killers everywhere, a whole year of destroying the scene, sole domination at the top and reinventing his race to further his reign.
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Edit: I deleted this post.
I'm just still a little bitter over how Savior is worshipped around here (including with the recent article) when I feel he was not only a horrible person who almost killed BW, but also a generally overrated player. Was he great? Yes. Was he the best? He might not even be in the top five. He's certainly not in the top three.
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This would have been easier to consider if he didn't just get punched out of the MSL (especially since there is no OSL this season).
I like Jaedong, but he's no bonjwa... There used to be a million threads like this until I think people started getting banned for it.
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On May 28 2011 21:26 SimonB wrote:
Edit: I deleted this post.
I'm just still a little bitter over how Savior is worshipped around here (including with the recent article) when I feel he was not only a horrible person who almost killed BW, but also a generally overrated player. Was he great? Yes. Was he the best? He might not even be in the top five. He's certainly not in the top three.
hey thanks, now i know never to read anything you post ever again
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On May 28 2011 21:07 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap There are interviews, like the one I quoted in my signature, commentators have been calling him bonjwa and/or above bonjwa for a long time, etc. So unless you can offer any sort of proof, which I highly doubt, you're nothing but trolling.
calm down flash fan, you dont have do just assume im trolling
if you had any idea how to read korean
and went on any korean starcraft community site like fomos or ygosu
you would find out that "bonjwa" is a dead term
flash isnt considered bonjwa
bonjwa stopped at boxer nada savior iloovoov
commentators say a lot of things
one statement said by one commentator doesnt reflect the korean community's perspective
a commentator also previously said jaedong exceeded bonjwaism
I have sources just look at a starcraft korean community
are you gonna understand it?
would you believe me if I translated some of the debates?
dont make idiotic assumptions if you have no apparent idea about any of the korean communities
even the translations here are often erroneous
the foreign community is the only community that recognizes flash as bonjwa
doesn't really mean much to the korean scene
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make sure you dont translate the fomos ones LOL
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He is a Demi-Bonjwa like July and Bisu Imo.
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For me there are only 2 Bonjwa oov and savior. I'm too lazy to explain why though.
Edit: Their nicknames explain it very well, Cheater/Monster Terran and The Maestro/Ma Bonjwa 
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I believe Jaedong is the second-best player in history (after Flash). Especially with the competition being alot more fierce today than it was before. Both of them are tons better than any of the bonjwas ever was or could have been.
I recall commentators being hesitant to call Flash a bonjwa, because they feel that he's beyond that, and deserve to be ranked higher. I also recall Jaedong getting the same remarks from time to time in LR report translations.
No one but the blindest fanboy would regard Savior as being even close to Jaedong's skill-level.
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On May 28 2011 21:33 gnr9292 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:07 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap There are interviews, like the one I quoted in my signature, commentators have been calling him bonjwa and/or above bonjwa for a long time, etc. So unless you can offer any sort of proof, which I highly doubt, you're nothing but trolling. calm down flash fan, you dont have do just assume im trolling if you had any idea how to read korean and went on any korean starcraft community site like fomos or ygosu you would find out that "bonjwa" is a dead term flash isnt considered bonjwa bonjwa stopped at boxer nada savior iloovoov commentators say a lot of things one statement said by one commentator doesnt reflect the korean community's perspective a commentator also previously said jaedong exceeded bonjwaism I have sources just look at a starcraft korean community are you gonna understand it? would you believe me if I translated some of the debates? dont make idiotic assumptions if you have no apparent idea about any of the korean communities even the translations here are often erroneous the foreign community is the only community that recognizes flash as bonjwa doesn't really mean much to the korean scene
Go ahead and translate something relevant if you want. If you're spreading bullshit there are enough Korean-speaking people here to point it out.
My "idiotic" assumption that you're just trolling is to be expected when someone with your kind of profile and post count starts randomly making claims without sources or proof whatsoever.
For all I know you might not even be Korean. So either provide sources for your claims or just shut up please. Thx.
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I think that everything has a cap including the skill cap of BW and the capability of reaching that cap. While Flash and JD were ahead of their time at some point, I think others are nearing the cap as well, which makes competition a whole lot more closer and harder to not just be the best but to stay at the top.
We are probably at a stage where the term "bonjwa" is the toughest to reach at this point and probably has more meaning than ever before.
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I think it's safe to say that both Jaedong and Flash are bonjwas. Just because they aren't oldschool like the others doesn't mean they should have even higher requirements put on them.
They are probably the most individually skilled players to ever touch the game (game evolves, invididual skill necessary increases). Although you have to put individual skill in relation to the state of the metagame, they are still the best (~08-11) and have been so for a long time.
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On May 28 2011 17:33 cybertopo wrote:
Seems like this article is: "oh, Jaedong is starting to fade away, poor thing, let's make him a bonjwa".
And he isn't.
the dong doesn't fade, he rests
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On May 28 2011 21:49 Demand2k wrote:
No one but the blindest fanboy would regard Savior as being even close to Jaedong's skill-level.
Not in absolute terms no, but SaviOr is the only Zerg in BW history to outshine his Terran rival, and even did so on maps that were actively hostile towards Zergs. That counts for a lot.
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EPT
