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lilsusie: Jaedong, you are very good, many people believe you are the fifth bonjwa.
Jaedong: Actually, I have a long way to go to live up to the accomplishments of those great players, and while I am flattered, I don't think names like that are very important. I am satisfied with Tyrant because it is a nickname that came from the fans.
Netizens: All hail God Young-ho!
Jaedong: -_-
I think this is what happened. Actually, if you look at traditional 3MSL1OSL, Jaedong and Flash have been at 3 MSL finals and 1 OSL final together (Flash has won 3 and Jaedong 1). That's quite telling.
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This is about JD not flash.
No shit flash is bonjwa.
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I think this has been said time and time again but I`ll reiterate:
The reason why neither Flash or Jaedong can be considered Bonjwa is that they are both S+ at the same time. As a Bonjwa you are supposed to be utterly dominant, and above everyone else for an extended period of time. You cannot have two Bonjwas at the same time, thus none of them are. They are many other great things, but they cannot be Bonjwa since they mutually exclude eachother from the title.
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On May 28 2011 17:48 cybertopo wrote:
When some people say that Jaedong is a bonjwa and other say Flash is (with their teams' logo in the signature), it is clear that none of them are, because no one has dominated the other for a lengthy period of time. Sorry guys.
past MSLs and OSLs beg to differ
On May 28 2011 17:58 Grend wrote:
I think this has been said time and time again but I`ll reiterate:
The reason why neither Flash or Jaedong can be considered Bonjwa is that they are both S+ at the same time. As a Bonjwa you are supposed to be utterly dominant, and above everyone else.
You mean like 2 consecutive dual finals with 3 titles from them,dual gold + PL title the same season and 1k above the rest in the Kespa rank? Clearly no one has ever made this, but if someone does he should be called bonjwa
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I love your more analytical approach to Starcraft history. Great article as always.
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On May 28 2011 17:56 jjhchsc2 wrote:
This is about JD not flash.
No shit flash is bonjwa.
Flash ain't bonjwa he is god.
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In general, I agree, at least if it weren't for Flash. I like LeeSsang more than bonjwa though.
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United States8841 Posts
Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
For instance, Savior was a bonjwa even when he only had 2 MSL titles, and even after he lost to Chojja in the MSL while dropping in qualifiers of the OSL. Oov was the most dominant player on the scene through his gamechanging macro plays despite not qualifying for an OSL (though the term was not created at this time, he still had this level of domination and mystique). This entire article does nothing but cite titles and how deep Jaedong has made runs into starleagues over a very long period of time. Jaedong might be the most impressively consistent player since Nada, but Nada was not given the moniker of Bonjwa because he could come back five years after his time of dominance and still win an OSL, it was what he did in a brief period years before in how he changed the game and dominated through it.
This is why I believe Flash being a bonjwa is an aberration. Flash has not fundamentally changed the game in even close to the same way Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior have -- I'd argue he hasn't changed the face of the game as much as even Jaedong. Flash's discrepancy is that he did achieve a level of dominant mystique similar to the bonjwas, but did it by creating so many different builds and tactics that, while not fundamentally changing the game, he rocked the foundation of the scene for a straight year in a way that not even previous bonjwas have. Flash became a bonjwa through sheer dominance at a level that Jaedong can't match, and did so at Jaedong's expense (Jaedong has been startingly consistent, but at no point in his career was he even close to what Flash did in 2010).
This is not a slight to Jaedong, as Flash clearly isn't the same level of dominant he was in 2010 and I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that out of anyone. Becoming a bonjwa through sheer domination as this article implies is almost impossible and Jaedong has not done that. He has not reached a level of domination through innovation that every non-Flash bonjwa has. He comes up short in the particular reasons that the other Bonjwas are considered, and frankly it's not that fair because I don't think any player has worked as hard for his success as Jaedong.
Flash is a completely different bonjwa from the previous ones, and Jaedong has not lived up to that level of dominance (It took flash beating Jaedong in both finals to do it, what has Jaedong done similarly?), and unless Jaedong finds something out that rocks the foundation of broodwar from a sheer fundamental standpoint and uses that to dominate, he's not going to have the same mystique that the others had and receive their monikers in the same way.
Basically, Jaedong will have to double title while taking out Flash in both of them (not necessarily in the finals, but atleast take out flash somewhere in the tournaments) to achieve the title the same way Flash did. He's got the build up but he doesn't have the finish, so to say.
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Bonjwa is an irrelevant 'title' as far as Jaedong is concerned. He's the greatest zerg of all time and holds superior accomplishments than 3 of the 5 bonjwas, so crowning him a bonjwa doesn't add anything to his legacy.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
Hmm... Jaedong can't be Bonjwa because Bonjwa means "the one" and he wasn't really dominating for a long enough period of time without contest. Actually I think that a fight for a "bonjwa" title began in 2010 I think, and we all know that Jaedong lost this fight, and this title went to Flash. 
Though, Jaedong can be considered the best non-bonjwa player of all time.
Come on, the title of bonjwa isn't all, he can still pwn Flash and this is no less honor 
Well, if he still won, let's say, one league this season and went to the final of another (while Flash would win none of it, and Jaedong would beat Flash in a final), then we could name him a 6th bonjwa... but he didn't T_T
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He definitely would have been if not for Flash unfortunately
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Any bonjwa discussion that brings in numbers misses the point.
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I've been following the Brood War scene for a while and what I missed before I started playing, I've gone back and caught up on the modern history of Starcraft. Would someone please tell me why Flash and Jaedong are considered for Bonjwa-ness? Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, but they haven't dominated long enough nor considerably enough in my opinion to be considered Bonjwas. They are VERY good players and would hand my ass to me on a silver (or gold) platter, but there is simply not enough evidence to support either one being crowned a Bonjwa. There is no Bonjwa right now and there hasn't been for some time. Best player in the world =/= Bonjwa. That's my two cents.
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United States8841 Posts
On May 28 2011 18:10 Gifted.TempO wrote:
I've been following the Brood War scene for a while and what I missed before I started playing, I've gone back and caught up on the modern history of Starcraft. Would someone please tell me why Flash and Jaedong are considered for Bonjwa-ness? Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, but they haven't dominated long enough nor considerably enough in my opinion to be considered Bonjwas. They are VERY good players and would hand my ass to me on a silver (or gold) platter, but there is simply not enough evidence to support either one being crowned a Bonjwa. There is no Bonjwa right now and there hasn't been for some time. Best player in the world =/= Bonjwa. That's my two cents.
Flash received the moniker because he appeared in every finals for a straight year and was unquestionably the best player for over a year, which is a similar stretch of time to the other bonjwas and his accomplishments in such a short time shadow the bonjwas. Jaedong has yet to receive the title and that's why this article was made.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SLeiu.png)
God Young Ho.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KyH2r.png)
Other finalists between championships. Surely the best player, but just too much competition.
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to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
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United States8841 Posts
On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
You know he was going to be until he blew it against Mind. He even has the domination through innovation bit I mentioned, but well hard to be a bonjwa when you suck at PvT lol.
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Cool story. I just honestly don't think he should be considered a Bonjwa. Even though he considers Flash bonjwa, I think TwoToneTerran said it best when he said Flash hasn't changed anything, not a thing. I'm not saying he's a bad player at all, he has won many very important, prestigious, and impressive titles, but I don't think he meets the criteria for the Bonjwa title.
Moral of the story: Until the Commentators and SC:BW progames start throwing the title in Flash's direction, he's not Bonjwa. They know better than us.
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United States8841 Posts
He's mostly a bonjwa because korea considers him one and we just kind of adapt what they say. The commentators have been calling him above bonjwa for half a year now, lol.
PS: I didn't say Flash has changed nothing, that is patently false. I just said his changes did not LEAD to his domination the way it did other bonjwas. You can pinpoint how their playstyles changed the game and made them incredibly hard to beat moreso than their just raw skill and preparation -- which is how Flash and Jaedong win. They're both still very integral to the current metagame.
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EPT
