EPTOn May 29 2011 01:40 Thorin wrote:
Are ad hominem attacks, hysterics and vague allusions considered valid avenues of debate now?
Are ad hominem attacks, hysterics and vague allusions considered valid avenues of debate now?
Not when my point about how you only consider OSLs/MSLs as a viable metric is 100% true.
Perhaps you could list some of them instead of simply making assertions which you don't back up and nobody can respond to, except with assertions of their own.
Ugh, okay. You know the unit composition everyone uses in TvP? Nada's. You know how everyone uses vultures at all? Nada's. Hell, half the early-midgame-lategame factory attacks are Nada's builds, as well as an uncountable number midgame pushes in TvZ that are still used today. I'd say he defined the dropship based TvT more than any terran. I wasn't watching the game back then but these are things I've picked up when I said the same misguided comments you did about how Nada wasn't as gamechanging as the other Bonjwas. I really wish Mortality was here.
Yeah, and he didn't lose a series to a terran on the worst maps in ZvT history and creating modern ZvT as we know it while doing so, but you don't make note of that because the only thing you care about is specific positions in tournaments. I countered you with your own logic about making deep runs in tournaments being the only factor when that's clearly not how I think. This addresses your plethora of responses to me just trying to play by your misguided logic about what made the bonjwas so unique.
Then why was sAviOr unstoppable during his run?
Again it seems like you cherry pick success from one guy and failure from another when if you look at both leagues combined they both were having at least one success story each season for a streak of multiple seasons. How is this different?
No, you're the one who does nothing but cherry pick Jaedong's accomplishments and completely dejects all of the less tangible accomplishments of the bonjwas. You pick out how Boxer doesn't have as many MSLs and OSLs when he was dominating before the MSL existed, and was clearly the #1 player for a longer stretch than any player since. You try to make up things about Nada not being as gamechanging as other bonjwas which so unabashedly displays how little you know about not just the Bonjwas, but everything in BW before 2007.
Then based on your own logic nobody except Flash can be considered a bonjwa, since all of the others lack in some area that Flash has succeeded but which you hold against Jaedong.
Nope, if Jaedong does what Flash did he would clearly be bonjwa. That's just what it takes to gain the recognition -- or, he could completely change the fundamental execution of the game and go on to be insanely dominant with it like Savior.
Luckily for me I didn't say either of those things. You seem to need to create straw men arguments which you assign to me so you can knock them down. If my arguments are invalid then address them directly on their own merits.
"* Since BoxeR meets almost none of the bonjwa criteria of the others, dominating for all of three seasons in terms of golds, why is he allowed to be considered an honorary bonjwa but Jaedong is not?"
This is you, unambiguously saying Boxer was not dominant enough because of your distinction of golds and only golds matters. This is saying he was not dominant enough compared to other bonjwas, and you are wrong in this fact because the only thing you've done is point out the most basic statistic of "Did he win titles???" and completely missed out on, you know, all of the games boxer played, the tons of leagues and matches that had nothing to do with the OSL or MSL back then because they weren't the only things that mattered back then, because you've only cited things that anyone can glance off of the TLPD and have no clue about the TONS of games and tournaments that it has missed that truly mattered back then and were instrumental to why Boxer was #1 so long.
"* If you have to radically alter the metagame and make genius changes to your race then why is NaDa a bonjwa on that criteria bearing in mind he basically has the most in common with the modern era of players by taking what the great players before them did and basically applying superior mechanics and repetition to "perfecting" those strategies?"
This is you unambiguously saying that Nada is not innovative enough compared to the other bonjwas, which I've already addressed and is so patently untrue that I, personally, am not learned enough or eloquent enough to inform you on more than I have because there is just so much information about this topic that I don't know. But I can 100%, without even the slightest hesitation, tell you you are wrong. You may phrase this as a question but there is an obvious statement that assumes Nada mostly just copied people before him, but better.
You said both of these things, and they're both very very wrong.
Just because someone says they think Kobe is the best player in basketball doesn't mean they automatically hate LeBron and think his accomplishments are worthless. I specifically stated in the first section of the article that I acknowledge all of the five bonjwas and consider them all truly great and transcendent players.
Yes, you said that as a disclaimer and then instantly denigrate their accomplishments to try to prove your points, even going so far as to blatantly lie about Nada and Boxer as I've pointed out, because the only thing you seem to be able to do is scour TLPD -- I know this seems like an ad hominem, but NOTHING you've posted is something you can't obviously pick out of TLPD and that is why I'm so skeptical. You know nothing of the superfight where Savior just walked in, crushed every other team's ace like everyone expected, and walked out and no one batted an eyelash because he was just so much better than everyone else, nothing of the amateur tournament where Nada, as a non-pro, walked in and showed everyone up doing things no one had seen before. You take no notice of the ITV games, GhemTV games, special matches, special team leagues, every single important league and game that wasn't and OSL or MSL -- these are the intangible wins that TLPD doesn't mention and that add so amazingly to a player's aura and domination, and are things you don't know about or at the very least make no mention of.
From what I can tell the significant difference between you and I is that I don't pretend to know everything and haven't decided beforehand that I'm right and know more than you. The majority of my points have been specifically phrased as questions so that people will address them by giving me answers. I'm not afraid of being wrong and learning something new.
Of course you're free to continue acting exasperated because I took BoxeR's name in vain rather than address my points with specifics, as I've repeatedly requested.
Of course you're free to continue acting exasperated because I took BoxeR's name in vain rather than address my points with specifics, as I've repeatedly requested.
I'm sorry, I just don't like seeing the guys who created the game get demeaned because "Golds and Silvers~!"
